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Division among Christians.

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Benjamin413, Jul 26, 2021.

  1. Benjamin413

    Benjamin413 New Member

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    A few days ago, one of my favorite Christian musicians (TobyMac) posted a Bible verse from “The Message” translation, and the responses got ugly with some people upset with him using that particular translation.

    Did you know there are over 50 different English translations of The Bible (I can’t even imagine how many in other languages). Don’t even get me started with how many denominations there are, and each of those have been split into different branches.

    It’s hard to fathom why anyone would get so upset about someone using a different version than they do. Each one was translated in different ways to make it easier to understand. We all learn differently and need things explained differently. So which is “the best”?

    Whichever one you’ll read. Whichever one you’ll understand. Whichever one helps you build a relationship with Jesus.

    Some people think that “their Bible” is the only “true version” of scripture and that every other version will only “lead them astray”.

    I think ‘Casting Crowns’ put it best when they said

    “People aren't confused by the Gospel
    They're confused by us
    Jesus is the only way to God
    But we are not the only way to Jesus
    This world doesn't need my tie, my hoodie
    My denomination or my translation of the bible
    They just need Jesus
    We can be passionate about what we believe
    But we can't strap ourselves to the gospel
    'Cause we're slowing it down
    Jesus is going to save the world
    But maybe the best thing we can do
    Is just get out of the way”
     
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  2. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I find that certain modern translation work can be unnecessarily wordy, though maybe with simple vocabulary; and it can communicate in grammar which is not how it seems a lot of people communicate.

    Meanwhile, there can be work which has a high vocabulary level, in places, which a lot or readers would not know.

    And I suspect the reason for this is in order to avoid having too much wording the same as previous translations which have been copyrighted.

    So, not all translation work is done the way it is, in order to be easily understood, in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    "The Message" is not a translation it is a paraphrase.

    "The Message is a personal paraphrase of the Bible in English by Peterson from the original languages."

    When someone paraphrases instead of doing a direct translation their interest is conveying their own ideas of what the writer meant to say - and explaining it in the paraphraser's own terms.

    It would be like someone saying to you "you are too young and uninformed to read the Bible and have any idea of what it says - so I will explain my own personal view of it to you -- chapter by chapter)"

    So it would matter if that person doing the "splaining" were a Mormon or an atheist who reads Greek and Hebrew - or a Catholic priest or a Baptist Bible scholar etc.
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    First, most Christians have not done their homework when it comes to see which Bible is the most pure and reliable by doing a fruits test.

    I mean, you wouldn't want somebody to change your house contract subtly for the worse when buying a house, right? Then why would you want that to happen with God's Holy Word that is a book for our soul? Take for example most Modern Translations. They do not include 1 John 5:7 KJB (Which is the one and only verse that teaches the Trinity point blank). Why do they remove this verse? Because the Critical Text (of which Modern Translations are based upon) comes from Alexandria, Egypt. If you were to Google the origin of Arianism (i.e. Anti-Trinitarianism), you would discover that Arianism originates from Alexandria, Egypt, too. Surely it is not a coincidence that this verse was removed in the very place where Arianism originated.

    Second, there are scores of other problems like this that would be too numerous to list here. So if you truly want to know the big deal is with having the correct Word of God, I would highly recommend checking out this thread here:

    30 reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God for today

    Also, check out Mr Gipp's videos on the King James Bible (KJB).
    They are like mini little movies.

    Here is Sam Gipp's 1st episode on YouTube in defense of the KJB.



    Here is a link on YouTube to all seven episodes + a bonus video.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdD7_B3zweu0qi_gUHA9W_0JxSM_jT0zj
    (Important Note: Please understand that I do not agree with everything Mr. Gipp teaches or says; I mentioned his videos only because of the KJB issue).
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I would also caution you in following the Theology that comes from CCM (Christian Contemporary Music). How so? Just check out this video here on the many problems of CCM.

    The Corrupt Christian Music Industry - YouTube
    (Note: I provided the YouTube video as a link because the author of the video does not allow for embedding of the video).
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Not to make too big a point of it, but it's not the case that all the translations of the Bible out there just make it easier for people to understand Scripture or are different ways to help people build a relationship with Jesus.

    More than a few of them are definitely wrong and misleading, often intentionally. That some people feel they should warn the unwary about these misleading wordings shouldn't be seen as pointless or just meanspirited. However, there is a considerate way to do that and not everyone acts like they know this.
     
  7. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    The message is more of a paraphrase, but since thoughts are formed before they become human languages - not a big deal.
     
  8. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    Can you give an example of one that might be misleading and why?
     
  9. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    The New World Translation deliberately translates "God" as "a god" when the reference is made to the Second person of the Trinity. No other translation that I am aware of does this.

    This fits with the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses who believe that Christ was not God, not the second person of the Trinity, but more than an ordinary human.
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    A List of Doctrines Changed in God's Word:
    (Between the KJV and Modern Translations):

    #1. Doctrine of The Trinity is Effected; For the Only Verse (1 John 5:7) That Point Blank Tells Us About the Trinity is Removed:
    If I was on an island, and I had no clue about Christianity, the odds of my understanding the Trinity is better if I had a King James bible vs. a Modern Translation bible that removes this valuable truth on knowing the Trinity. So this proves that Modern Translations are less helpful for me to understand the Trinity by using the Bible alone.

    #2. The Doctrine of Fasting So As To Cast Out Persistent Demons is Removed:
    Matthew 17:21 that tells us that casting out persistent or really strong devils is by prayer and fasting. Yet, Matthew 17:21 is oddly removed in Modern Translations. Mark 9:29 mentions that you can pray to remove these kinds of devils, but it does not mention fasting. So the key doctrine of fasting so as to cast out really strong demons is gone. So the enemy wins if a person only adheres to the Modern Translations and they have a hate on for the KJV. For if you ever encountered strong demonic activity like this before, you know that fasting does actually help greatly, and not just prayer alone.

    #3. The Full Version of the Doctrine on Having "No Condemnation" According to Romans 8:1 is Removed:
    Romans 8:1 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Modern Translations leave out the part that says, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." The KJV says, as a part of having no Condemnation: We have to (a) Be in Christ Jesus, AND: (b) Walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. The enemy wants Christians today to justify sin instead of battling against it. So the enemy will do everything he can to give a person a water down version on His holy Word to promote the idea that they do not need to worry about sin destroying their soul.

    #4. The Doctrine of Psalms 12:7 that the Lord will Preserve His Words Forever is Altered.
    Psalms 12:6 says the words of the Lord are pure words, and in Psalms 12:7, the Psalmist says that the Lord will preserve them forever. It's kind of funny or odd that those who are against a perfect Bible existing in our world language today (i.e. the KJV) just so happen to favor Modern translations that remove and alter this very verse. Some do not even believe there is a perfect Bible out there. So who decides what words in the Bible are the true words of God? Do they decide? Now, some may say the perfect Word exists in the original languages. But Habakkuk 2:2 says write the words plainly so that he that reads it may run. So it's not going to be some gobbledygook language that nobody can understand (like biblical Hebrew, and biblical Greek). In fact, all we have today are copies of the original languages. This is not the case with the KJV. Meaning, His Word is preserved forever. His Word moved with the times. For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. His Word does not exist perfectly in some dead language, but His Word exists in the English (Which is the world language of today).

    #5. In Genesis 3:16, the ESV (Which is one of the most popular Modern Translations) Doctrinally Changes the Nature of the Truth in the KJV by Saying that Eve's (the wife's) Desire is Contrary To Her Husband.

    [​IMG]

    #6. 2 Corinthians 3:12, and Habakkuk 2:2 is Altered by Modern Translations To Eliminate That God Uses Plainness of Speech.

    This is important to understand because Modern Translation folk tend to prefer to look to the original languages as their primary code key to understand God's Word as their one and only go to source. While I am not against the occasional looking up of the word in the original languages, it should be a last resort. In other words, they are not using the plainness of speech that God employs. While God can speak in metaphor, or parables, He also speaks in plainness of speech, too. This has to be applicable to our life today in some way. Surely it is not a coincidence that these two key verses are eliminated in their favored Modern Translations (that influences their way of thinking).

    #7. Philippians 2:7 Changes Doctrine by Removing an Aspect of the Deity of Christ During His Earthly Ministry.
    Philippians 2:6-7 says correctly,

    6 “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:” (Philippians 2:6-7).
    King James correctly says that Christ made himself of no reputation.


    Various different Modern Translations say that He “emptied himself,” and the NLT says that, “he gave up his divine privileges;” (Philippians 2:7). This is false and it is a denial of the deity of Christ. God cannot cease to become God. God cannot cut out an aspect of who He is at His core in having divine power and yet still be God. That would be a contradiction. The Modern Translations are teaching a gnostic heresy in denying that Jesus has power as God. Granted, Jesus had grown in wisdom (See: Luke 2:52), but I believe this was not an elimination of His divine powers as God, but it was a suppression of them (See: John 17:5, Habakkuk 2:14). For Jesus needed to be a like figure or type of Adam; For Adam also was limited in knowledge when He was in a right relationship with God before the Fall (See: 1 Corinthians 15:45-47). However, Jesus clearly had power as God as a man before the cross. For...

    Jesus had power as God:
    (during his earthly ministry):

    #1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
    #2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
    #3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
    #4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
    #5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
    #6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
    #7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
    #8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).​

    So Modern Translations are wrong. In fact, many Christians today think Jesus gave up His divine powers; This is because of the wrong teaching (or wrong doctrine) behind Modern Translations.
    Anyways, these are just a few of the red flags in Modern Translations.
    But there are so many red flags in Modern Translations, it would make one think they were in a Russian airport.

    Side Note:

    Please keep in mind that while I believe the KJV is the perfect inerrant Word of God, I also believe Modern Translations can be helpful in updating the 1600's English (as long as the KJV is our final word of authority). If a verse in a Modern Translation looks like it says something different in the KJV, I stick with the KJV. In other words, I use the KJV and an older dictionary (or KJV dictionary) kind of like how people may use Hebrew and Greek to understand the Bible. But there are many verses and passages that I can read normally in the King James. Not all verses are hard to understand. But I do recognize there are many challenging words used in the King James (Which can make it difficult to read at times). But this is why we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJB.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    A List of Commands Changed in God's Word:
    (Between the KJV and Modern Translations):

    #1. One Aspect of the Great Commission Command Is Changed.
    As a part of the great commission: Matthew 28:19 in the Modern Translations slightly alters the command of Jesus to say: “make disciples.” The original words in Matthew 28:19 in the KJV say: “teach all nations,” and not “make disciples. ” We cannot make disciples. Only God can truly do that. For one person plants, another person waters, but it is God that gives the increase (See: 1 Corinthians 3:6). We cannot force a person to be a disciple. We cannot truly mold and make a disciple. It is God who works upon the hearts of men to follow Him. We simply teach (i.e. we plant and water) but it is God that gives the increase.

    #2. The Details of the Command of The True Way To Test a Spirit of Antichrist is Changed:
    The command says, “Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1); Many of your Modern Translations fail the details of this test that is explained in verse 3. The KJV says “every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,” but Modern Translations do not say this. Therefore, they fail to pass this test by not admitting this truth. Why is admitting that Jesus is come in the flesh important? Because it is about the Incarnation. Can a person deny the Incarnation of Jesus Christ and be of God? Modern Translations water down the Incarnation in 1 Timothy 3:16, as well. The King James correctly says "God was manifest in the flesh," and yet the watered down version bibles say "He was manifested in the flesh." Here again, many Modern Translations fail the test of how we check to see if a spirit is of the spirit of Antichrist or not by denying how God was manifest in the flesh (i.e. a denial of the Incarnation). How does this affect us? Well, if I wanted to show forth the truth to a person who denied the Incarnation, my battle would be severely crippled if I had a Modern Translation. Also, if Rick ran into a false spirit claiming to be Jesus, then Rick could test this spirit with the proper test from 1 John 4:3 in the KJV. But if Rick was a Modern Translations fan and he hated the KJV, he could potentially be deceived because he did not have the proper test.

    #3. The Command To Study God's Word To Show Yourself Approved Unto God is Changed:
    2 Timothy 2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Modern Translations are confusing on this point and they say "work hard to present yourself approved unto God." The context is rightly dividing the Word of truth (Scripture). Why is this important? Well, we are living in the last days where men of God are questioning the Bible, or they are looking to something extra in addition to the Bible (like visions, dreams, revelations, prophecies, other holy books, etc.). God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6).

    #4. The Command To Not Exercise Authority Like the Gentiles Do is Subtly Altered.
    The Command:
    “It shall not be so among you:”
    "let him be your minister"
    "let him be your servant.”

    Matthew 20:25-27 says, “You know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant.”
    Matthew 10:27 correctly says in the King James “whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant.” Modern Translations say, “and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,” Okay. There is a big difference between a ”servant” and a “slave.” One is obligated to do servitude and the other is a servant by choice. I can imagine how this verse could be misused by certain Christian cults, or really bad people, etc.; How is this possible? Because they would be using a Modern Translation as the basis for their authority and not the King James.

    #5. The Command “Do violence To No Man” in Luke 3:14 is Changed.
    The King James Bible correctly says “Do violence to no man” in Luke 3:14. Yet, Modern Translations say, ““Do not extort money from anyone…”; The Bible already covers the topic of extortioners and how we are not to have fellowship with any brother who is an extortioner (1 Corinthians 5:9-11), for extortioners will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). It is no surprise that when I bring up the teaching of Non Resistance to a Christian today, they are appalled by the idea. I believe this is because most of them (not all) are reading from a Modern Translation, and or they are influenced by their experience in the army, or their use of physical combat, etc.​

    Bonus: A Doctrine That Relates to the Lord’s Commands is Changed:

    #1. A Doctrine on the Lord’s Commands in 1 Corinthians 14:37 is Subtly Altered.
    In the King James it is correctly stated, “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:37) (KJV). The King James Bible says “commandments” plural, and Modern Translation Bibles say “commandment” as in reference to a singular command. The Modern Translations are erroneously suggesting that Paul’s most recent discussion is a command of the Lord here when in reality the truth (according to the KJV) is that all of Paul’s writings should be regarded as the commandments (plural) of the Lord (and not just one command based on his most recent discussion). This is important to understand because some Christians today falsely think that Paul writings are not always backed by the authority of our Lord (Note: Yes, I am aware of 1 Corinthians 7. I believe Paul in this instance is merely relaying the difference between the Lord’s specific command that He gave us vs. what Paul commanded us. This does not mean some of Paul’s teachings are not authoritative Scripture).
     
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