Divinely Inspired Ambiguity?

spockrates

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Did God intend the Bible to be unclear?

So it seems to me the New Testament is somewhat a product of scriptural ambiguity. That is, certain significant passages of scripture use imprecise language, which lends itself to differing and even contradictory interpretations. If we accept the premise that the Bible is the word of God and divinely inspired, then does this mean such lack of preciaion and the resulting disagreements about the meaning of key passages is divinely intentional?

One example:

Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”​

The four words, "this is my body," are cause for a great divide amoung Christians. For instance, Catholics believe Christ to be saying:

"this is my [actual] body"
Thus they believe the Eucharist they eat at mass is actually the body of Christ, and a sacrament that contributes to their salvation. On the other hand, some other Christians believe Christ to be saying:

"this is [like] my body"​

Hence they see the bread as merely a symbol and deny the Catholic belief in the sacrament and divide over it.

The thing is, if anything is divinely inspired, these four words are, for they were spoken by God himself! So why not say five words instead of four and stop the future divide before it begins?
 

Tolworth John

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Did God intend the Bible to be unclear?
Jesus deliberatly taught using stories which the meanings were not always clear to the discipes, let alone the ordinary man in the dusty street.

What did Jesus hand to the disciples?
Lumps of bread or lumps of still bleeding flesh?
It is clear he was speaking symboicly.
 
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Did God intend the Bible to be unclear?

So it seems to me the New Testament is somewhat a product of scriptural ambiguity. That is, certain significant passages of scripture use imprecise language, which lends itself to differing and even contradictory interpretations. If we accept the premise that the Bible is the word of God and divinely inspired, then does this mean such lack of preciaion and the resulting disagreements about the meaning of key passages is divinely intentional?

One example:

Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”​

The four words, "this is my body," are cause for a great divide amoung Christians. For instance, Catholics believe Christ to be saying:

"this is my [actual] body"
Thus they believe the Eucharist they eat at mass is actually the body of Christ, and a sacrament that contributes to their salvation. On the other hand, some other Christians believe Christ to be saying:

"this is [like] my body"​

Hence they see the bread as merely a symbol and deny the Catholic belief in the sacrament and divide over it.

The thing is, if anything is divinely inspired, these four words are, for they were spoken by God himself! So why not say five words instead of four and stop the future divide before it begins?

Men would simply distort the Scriptures later on to defend their belief. In other words, there would simply be a manuscript or Bible that would eliminate the word "like" and things would not change. There are many plain texts in the Bible that people ignore. I do not think it would change anything. God spoke the way He did as a means to test His people. He wants them to truly study to show themselves approved unto God as their one and only authority and He does not want us to trust in men and what they say. Also, there are many other doctrines that the RCC holds to that I believe clearly contradicts Scripture. In addition, the fact that we do not see any of Christ's followers practice the RCC's version of the Eucharist is also another giant piece of evidence that Jesus was speaking spiritually. In fact, most of Jesus's message were misunderstood because He was speaking in spiritual terms. Nicodemus is one of the most popular examples, but there are more (of course).



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SkyWriting

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Did God intend the Bible to be unclear?
So it seems to me the New Testament is somewhat a product of scriptural ambiguity. That is, certain significant passages of scripture use imprecise language, which lends itself to differing and even contradictory interpretations. If we accept the premise that the Bible is the word of God and divinely inspired, then does this mean such lack of preciaion and the resulting disagreements about the meaning of key passages is divinely intentional?

The Bible is not that important.
It doesn't actually claim to be.
Which is good, becasue not all
humanity has always had it
available, or been able to read.

New International Version
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

New Living Translation
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

English Standard Version
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Berean Study Bible
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
 
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Adstar

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Did God intend the Bible to be unclear?

So it seems to me the New Testament is somewhat a product of scriptural ambiguity. That is, certain significant passages of scripture use imprecise language, which lends itself to differing and even contradictory interpretations. If we accept the premise that the Bible is the word of God and divinely inspired, then does this mean such lack of preciaion and the resulting disagreements about the meaning of key passages is divinely intentional?

One example:

Matthew 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”​

The four words, "this is my body," are cause for a great divide amoung Christians. For instance, Catholics believe Christ to be saying:

"this is my [actual] body"
Thus they believe the Eucharist they eat at mass is actually the body of Christ, and a sacrament that contributes to their salvation. On the other hand, some other Christians believe Christ to be saying:

"this is [like] my body"​

Hence they see the bread as merely a symbol and deny the Catholic belief in the sacrament and divide over it.

The thing is, if anything is divinely inspired, these four words are, for they were spoken by God himself! So why not say five words instead of four and stop the future divide before it begins?

Those who God foreknows will love the truth will be lead by the Holy Spirit into being able to discern the scriptures in the right way.. They will understand what they need to understand when they need to understand it of the scriptures... The Bible is a book that has a need for the Holy Spirit as a guide for more thorough understanding..

For most people who are rejecting the Love of the truth that is in the Bible will only get human centered interpretations out of reading the scripture and will be lead into false doctrines and confusion..

Billions of people want to be religious... But few it seems can accept the Way God has made for them to be Redeemed...
 
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spockrates

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Jesus deliberatly taught using stories which the meanings were not always clear to the discipes, let alone the ordinary man in the dusty street.

What did Jesus hand to the disciples?
Lumps of bread or lumps of still bleeding flesh?
It is clear he was speaking symboicly.
Hi, Tolworth. An oversimplified explanation is that Catholics believe the Eucharist has the appearance of bread but is in reality the body of Christ. So it looks, feels, sounds, smells and tastes like bread but isn't. As a sacrament they believe it is required for salvation.
 
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Hillsage

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And on the day of judgment is God really going to care one whit which way you believed. Or are you going to be judged for how you acted, in response to how you believed? I believe we will be judged for our works and not for 'our' stupid doctrines which produced nothing but divisiveness concerning the body of Christ on earth.

Do I have an opinion as to which is right? Sure do. So what?
 
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And on the day of judgment is God really going to care one whit which way you believed. Or are you going to judged for how you acted, in response to how you believed? I believe we will be judged for our works and not for 'our' stupid doctrines which produced nothing but divisiveness concerning the body of Christ on earth.

Do I have an opinion as to which is right? Sure do. So what?

Yeah, sorry. I do not see that. God has a standard of morality and goodness that He cares about. You cannot just make up your own way or religion and expect God is going to be pleased with that. In the Bible, the Lord was upset for God's people not following God's instructions.


...
 
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Hi, Tolworth. An oversimplified explanation is that Catholics believe the Eucharist has the appearance of bread but is in reality the body of Christ. So it looks, feels, sounds, smells and tastes like bread but isn't. As a sacrament they believe it is required for salvation.

First, in John 6:53-54, when Christ says, "he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood has eternal life", we have to understand that this is in context of John 6:26, when Jesus said,

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled." (John 6:26).​

In other words, Christ was correcting them for desiring only earthly bread when He was setting before them the gift of eternal life / salvation (i.e. spiritual bread) (John 6:40).

Second, Jesus also said that the Last Supper Meal was to be done in REMEMBRANCE of Him. Jesus was physically with them in the Last Supper Meal and He was not interacting with them in some kind of deep spiritual way of mediation with His disciples. Jesus was saying that bread and wine were symbols of his body and blood being broken the next day for them. Anyways, you cannot partake of the Lord's supper in remembrance of Him if He is actually present with you in some kind of special ceremony. Also, the REMEMBRANCE part is a focus on the disciples supper they shared with Jesus and the symbol that it would represent with His death (the next day). That is what they were supposed to REMEMBER. Even spock said "remember" to McCoy in the original Star Trek 2 film. What exactly was he trying to get McCoy to remember? It is the same with the Scriptures. Jesus wants us to remember an event. What event? His death upon the cross. It does not make any sense to remember an event and yet also have them be present with you. Now, I know, Spock was sending his mind onto McCoy, but that is Science Fiction and not real life. Nobody can really do that. Granted, God can do anything, but there is no indication that Jesus was implimenting some kind of spiritual ceremony with the Lord's supper. We would have to see the disiples clearly saying in the Scriptures that the Lord's supper is a spiritual act or partaking of the Lord Himself in order for it to truly be this kind of thing. For the RCC believes it is essential for salvation. However, why would Paul and the other followers of Christ fail to mention this important act as being necessary for salvation? Why would Jesus for that matter? In other words, the RCC belief of the Eucharist does not hold any weight or water if the Scriptures is your one and only spiritual authority.

Three, on top of that, you would also have to believe in talking to the dead as being okay (of which the Bible condemns). You also would have to think it is okay to have an appearance of bowing down to idols. Paul says do not even have an appearance of evil. So if somebody thinks I am bowing down an idol (when that is not really what I am doing supposedly), I am contradicting what Paul says.

Four, Jesus said, "I am the door." That does not mean He is literally a door.
Jesus said, "I am the true vine." That does not mean He is literally a vine.
Most of the time, people misunderstood Jesus because He was talking in spiritual terms and not physical terms.

I could keep going on, but that should suffice it to say that the division is not based on just one word such as "like" within the Holy Scriptures. There are many verses that refute the idea of the RCC Eucharist and there are other verses that do not agree with their other practices, as well.

Please take note that I have nothing against the RCC as a people; I am commanded by God to love everyone. I am simply sharing what I believe the Scriptures say.

In any event, may God bless you.

Side Note:

Oh, and one more thing; My encouragment to you is to read about 50 articles or so on why the RCC is not in line with Scripture. Examine every point in Scripture for each practice they partake in and see if it lines up with God's Word or not. If Scripture is not your sole authority alone, and you place church authority on equal footing with Scripture, then you can just forget about doing this kind of study. But I believe the Bible is my sole authority or spiritual guide alone. I hope that is the case for you, as well.

Let the peace of Christ be unto you.


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Hillsage

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Yeah, sorry. I do not see that. God has a standard of morality and goodness that He cares about. You cannot just make up your own way or religion and expect God is going to be pleased with that. In the Bible, the Lord was upset for God's people not following God's instructions.


...
So your opinion is right and whoever doesn't agree with your opinion is wrong...says what scripture? I say God doesn't care who talks it right. He cares who walks it right with his fellow believers.
 
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So your opinion is right and whoever doesn't agree with your opinion is wrong...says what scripture? I say God doesn't care who talks it right. He cares who walks it right with his fellow believers.

See Post #9.


...
 
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spockrates

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Men would simply distort the Scriptures later on to defend their belief. In other words, there would simply be a manuscript or Bible that would eliminate the word "like" and things would not change.

Hi, Jason. Do you think that's what has actually happened with the Bible we have today?

There are many plain texts in the Bible that people ignore. I do not think it would change anything. God spoke the way He did as a means to test His people. He wants them to truly study to show themselves approved unto God as their one and only authority and He does not want us to trust in men and what they say.
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying we should have no pastors and other Bible teachers, like Quakers?

Also, there are many other doctrines that the RCC holds to that I believe clearly contradicts Scripture. In addition, the fact that we do not see any of Christ's followers practice the RCC's version of the Eucharist is also another giant piece of evidence that Jesus was speaking spiritually. In fact, most of Jesus's message were misunderstood because He was speaking in spiritual terms. Nicodemus is one of the most popular examples, but there are more (of course).

Well, it's now called the Catholic Church, as they've dropped the word Roman, but no worries! So Jesus said:

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
Are you thinking early Christians disobeyed this command, or are you making some other point?
 
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spockrates

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The Bible is not that important.
It doesn't actually claim to be.
Which is good, becasue not all
humanity has always had it
available, or been able to read.

New International Version
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

New Living Translation
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

English Standard Version
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Berean Study Bible
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

Hi, Skywiting. I'm curious why you quoted four translations. Also I see from your reply you seem appear to disagree with this author:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful ...
But appearances can be deceiving, so please forgive me if I'm mistaken. :)
 
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spockrates

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Those who God foreknows will love the truth will be lead by the Holy Spirit into being able to discern the scriptures in the right way.. They will understand what they need to understand when they need to understand it of the scriptures... The Bible is a book that has a need for the Holy Spirit as a guide for more thorough understanding..

For most people who are rejecting the Love of the truth that is in the Bible will only get human centered interpretations out of reading the scripture and will be lead into false doctrines and confusion..

Billions of people want to be religious... But few it seems can accept the Way God has made for them to be Redeemed...

Hi Adstar. So do you mean leaving out the word actual or like in this passage was the intent of the Holy Spirit, so He could choose to whom to reveal the correct word to add to scripture?

"Take, eat. This is my body."
(Matthew 26:26)​
 
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spockrates

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So your opinion is right and whoever doesn't agree with your opinion is wrong...says what scripture? I say God doesn't care who talks it right. He cares who walks it right with his fellow believers.

Hi Hillsage. What about understanding it right? :)
 
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Adstar

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Hi Adstar. So do you mean leaving out the word actual or like in this passage was the intent of the Holy Spirit, so He could choose to whom to reveal the correct word to add to scripture?

"Take, eat. This is my body."
(Matthew 26:26)​

He did not need to add scripture... The Holy Spirit reveals other scripture to help us understand what the ""bread"" symbolizes in this verse. Have a read of the following passage and maybe you will know what Jesus bread was and is.

Matthew 16: KJV
1 "The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. {2} He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. {3} And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? {4} A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. {5} And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. {6} ¶ Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. {7} And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. {8} Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? {9} Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? {10} Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? {11} How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? {12} Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."
 
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spockrates

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He did not need to add scripture... The Holy Spirit reveals other scripture to help us understand what the ""bread"" symbolizes in this verse. Have a read of the following passage and maybe you will know what Jesus bread was and is.

Matthew 16: KJV
1 "The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. {2} He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. {3} And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? {4} A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. {5} And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. {6} ¶ Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. {7} And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. {8} Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? {9} Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? {10} Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? {11} How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? {12} Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."
Thanks Adstar. I believe these words,

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Can be interpreted to mean,

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Or interpreted to mean,

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is [a symbol of] my body.​

Catholics add the emphasis to the word is, and so they say non-Catholics are the ones who are adding words to scripture--in this instance, the words added are, "a symbol of".

* * *​

My thought is this: Words added or not, both add their own understanding of what Christ meant. Someone like me, who doesn't know what understanding is correct, can see how either can be what Christ intended. So I'm unsure. Therefore the words are ambiguous to me. See?
 
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SPF

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Someone like me, who doesn't know what understanding is correct, can see how either can be what Christ intended. So I'm unsure. Therefore the words are ambiguous to me. See?
Spockrates, the point Adstar is making is that while the passage in question may leave an open question, by looking at the rest of Scripture, we can come to a fairly confident position as to whether Jesus was speaking symbolically or not. Scripture interprets Scripture.

I think one important thing to remember when reading Scripture is that the point of it really is to guide us to the person of Christ, His life, His death, His resurrection, and His eventual return. Jesus IS the Gospel.

The consequent role of the Holy Spirit is to point us towards Christ. The Holy Spirit provides gifts to people so that they can further the Gospel and edify the Church.

What the Spirit's role is NOT to do is to lay out all of theology on some spreadsheet. The Holy Spirit's role is not to answer ever detailed theological question we have - His role is to simply point us towards Christ. Therefore, it is possible that you will have humble and godly men on both sides of a theological issue. This isn't a failure on the part of the Holy Spirit who is responsible for the inspiration of Scripture. I think if we were more humble in our approach to Scripture and kept our focus where (on who) the Spirit wants us to, then we would probably be a lot better off.
 
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