Disturbing Religious Text Book About Hand Kissing

[Whyayeman]

Why not?

Silly question!

I am put in mind of my daughter's question about degrees of separation. One of my oldest friend's father worked for Winston Churchill. That means I am four degrees of separation from President Eisenhower, Joseph Stalin, King Edward VIII and Charles de Gaulle. My connection to the current Pope is, I think, more distant.

 

[Whyayeman]

You consider his authority to be invalid and thus you don't kiss his hand. This marks you as someone who is not part of Catholicism in any way. The action or inaction demonstrates your association.

Of course he has no authority over me because I am not a Catholic.

 

[HARK!]

I am not a Catholic. The Pope would not expect me to kiss his ring. I cannot imagine any circumstance where the Pope and I would ever be in the same room. It is a silly idea.

So you would be OK with kissing the Ayatollah's hand?

 

[Whyayeman]

So you would be OK with kissing the Ayatollah's hand?

No less silly!

1. Which Ayatollah have you in mind?

2. Would the Ayatollah you are thinking of expect such a thing?

3. I have kissed the hands of beautiful women. What is that a mark of?

 

[HARK!]

Of course he has no authority over me because I am not a Catholic.

Just as Muslims feel that those who don't believe like they do have no authority ever them?

 

[HARK!]

1. Which Ayatollah have you in mind?

Any Ayatollah that you wouldn't shun.

2. Would the Ayatollah you are thinking of expect such a thing?

For those of you who are unfamiliar with hand kissing in this context, it is a greeting by Muslims here in my region.

 

[Whyayeman]

Just as Muslims feel that those who don't believe like they do have no authority ever them?

The Pope does not claim to have authority over non-Catholics as far as I know. I think the current Pope is a decent fellow. He was controversially involved in a left-wing movement in his home country years ago. But I reckon we are unlikely ever to meet. the question, should it arise, is that I would offer to shake the man's hand.

Would he decline my courteous gesture? And would I feel insulted?

Should I invest in a decent suit on the off-chance?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Of course he has no authority over me because I am not a Catholic.

Right and that distinguishes you from the Catholic as loyalty to the Pope is one of the things which unites Catholics together and separates them from non-Catholics.

This isn't a conversation about whether the Pope does have loyalty over you. It's what you refusing that claimed authority represents. just like the Muslim not kissing the hand of the non-Muslim. That represents a distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims.

 

[Whyayeman]

It's what you refusing that claimed authority represents. just like the Muslim not kissing the hand of the non-Muslim.

I have checked the OP. See below. The key is the last three words. Muslims in general do not kiss hands, either of fellow Muslims or anybody else. I accept the appropriate authority: I am very polite to policemen.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with hand kissing in this context, it is a greeting by Muslims here in my region.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I have checked the OP. See below. The key is the last three words. Muslims in general do not kiss hands, either of fellow Muslims or anybody else. I accept the appropriate authority: I am very polite to policemen.

What does the practice being a local Malaysian Muslim practice impact here in my position? The entire point of the practice is to mark non-Muslims as being apart from Muslims proper.

Also, your personal reasons for acknowledging an authority are irrelevant. In not acknowledging the authority of the Pope you acknowledge yourself as separate and distinct from Catholics general. They are the outsider to you being an insider.

 

[Whyayeman]

The entire point of the practice is to mark non-Muslims as being apart from Muslims proper.

That is precisely what it is not. The original poster was complaining that refusing to kiss the hand of a non-Muslim was deplorable:

I find it highly disturbing that a religious text book teaches such things.

The custom of kissing hands is a Malaysian custom, not restricted to Muslims. Muslims in other countries do not kiss hands as a formal greeting.

You maintain a wall of seperation between yourself and the Pope. You consider his authority to be invalid and thus you don't kiss his hand.

Quite right, I am not and have never been a Catholic. Non-Catholics do not accept the Pope's authority; no surprise there! Only Catholics. It is what makes them Catholic, as opposed to anything else.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That is precisely what it is not. The original poster was complaining that refusing to kiss the hand of a non-Muslim was deplorable:



The custom of kissing hands is a Malaysian custom, not restricted to Muslims. Muslims in other countries do not kiss hands as a formal greeting.



Quite right, I am not and have never been a Catholic. Non-Catholics do not accept the Pope's authority; no surprise there! Only Catholics. It is what makes them Catholic, as opposed to anything else.

Alright and what does it being a local Muslim practice mean? Are you implying that because it's local to Malaysia and not practiced elsewhere in the Islamic world that it therefore is not a good Islamic practice? I am not convinced.

It is the view of many Muslims not just in Malaysia but in the Arab world that you should not greet non-Muslims with the Salam. It carries the same function of distinguishing between non-Muslims and Muslims. This logic can easily be transferred to non Arabic cultures which have different forms of greeting, say kissing the hand.

 

[HARK!]

I have kissed the hands of beautiful women.

Do they have to be beautiful? Do they have to be women? That sounds like a biased statement.

 

[Whyayeman]

Alright and what does it being a local Muslim practice mean? Are you implying that because it's local to Malaysia and not practiced elsewhere in the Islamic world that it therefore is not a good Islamic practice? I am not convinced.

I am stating as a fact reported in the OP that it is not an exclusively Muslim practice in Malaysia. It is a Muslim (the OP) who is complaining.

I am not trying to convince you of anything.

 

[Whyayeman]

Do they have to be beautiful? Do they have to be women? That sounds like a biased statement.

It is just a fact. It does not signify anything.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am stating as a fact reported in the OP that it is not an exclusively Muslim practice in Malaysia. It is a Muslim (the OP) who is complaining.

I am not trying to convince you of anything.

Isn't Icejad Lutheran?

 

[Whyayeman]

Isn't Icejad Lutheran?

Woops! Sorry, he is, not that it matters to the business of hand-kissing.

I am afraid I have entirely missed any point you want to make about the Pope's authority over non-Catholics - or why it matters.

Hand-kissing in Malaysia is a cultural phenomenon not restricted to Muslims. As I understand Icejad's post he is opposed to a Malaysian text book's assertion that Muslims should not kiss the hands of higher status people if they are not Muslim. And I agree with Icejad. It is discourteous and alien to Malaysian custom.

I could not be expected to kiss the Apostle's Ring because I am not a Catholic. I would not wish to disrespect the Pope so would offer my own hand to shake his - the courtesy equals show each other in my culture.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Woops! Sorry, he is, not that it matters to the business of hand-kissing.

I am afraid I have entirely missed any point you want to make about the Pope's authority over non-Catholics - or why it matters.

Hand-kissing in Malaysia is a cultural phenomenon not restricted to Muslims. As I understand Icejad's post he is opposed to a Malaysian text book's assertion that Muslims should not kiss the hands of higher status people if they are not Muslim. And I agree with Icejad. It is discourteous and alien to Malaysian custom.

I could not be expected to kiss the Apostle's Ring because I am not a Catholic. I would not wish to disrespect the Pope so would offer my own hand to shake his - the courtesy equals show each other in my culture.

Yes, you haven't had an easy time understanding why practices which exclude outsiders exist. Or why not participating in a practice marks you as an outsider. In refusing to Kiss the hand of the Pope, you visibly separate yourself from Catholics. That matters insofar as you expect Muslims to be egalitarian and kiss the hands of non-Muslims, you will not do the same to an authority figure you don't recognize.

The same principle applies to this case of Muslims in Malaysia. It may indeed be discourteous or even offensive, but that's kind of the point. Many Christians are offended that they cannot receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church. Many Atheists are offended that Christians would prefer in Christian institutions like a school that they would prefer to hire a fellow Christian.

This sort of differentiation exists in all things. You seem to think everyone has a duty to regard each other as equal. I don't think that's warranted, especially on Islam which makes a clear distinction between the Muslim and the non-Muslim.

 

[HARK!]

It is just a fact. It does not signify anything.

It would seem that you wouldn't kiss the hand of a Muslim, unless that Muslim was a beautiful woman.
However, it also seems that you would expect every Muslim to kiss your hand, or be labeled a bigot.

If this is true; would that signify anything?

 

[Whyayeman]

It would seem that you wouldn't kiss the hand of a Muslim, unless that Muslim was a beautiful woman.
However, it also seems that you would expect every Muslim to kiss your hand, or be labeled a bigot.

If this is true; would that signify anything?

Of course it is not true! But I love the bricks you have made without even a wisp of straw.