Disturbing Religious Text Book About Hand Kissing

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Not all religions have that as a goal. Many do not. Many religions aren't tied to identity, but to practice.

They might not have that goal, but in order to function they must have markers of distinction or risk getting assimilated. Think of Roman Paganism and how loose and Universal it was. It could not compete with a unified Christianity which insisted that it was true and exclusively so. You can also look at how religious communities survived in terrorities dominated by an alien faith. They survived by becoming more religious and clinging to their religion ever more tightly. Jews in either Muslim or Catholic Spain for instance were incredibly strict towards Jews under their authority who dissented. Going so far as to execute heretics like the Kairites.

 

[Whyayeman]

They might not have that goal, but in order to function they must have markers of distinction or risk getting assimilated. Think of Roman Paganism and how loose and Universal it was. It could not compete with a unified Christianity which insisted that it was true and exclusively so. You can also look at how religious communities survived in terrorities dominated by an alien faith. They survived by becoming more religious and clinging to their religion ever more tightly. Jews in either Muslim or Catholic Spain for instance were incredibly strict towards Jews under their authority who dissented. Going so far as to execute heretics like the Kairites.

Islam is the majority religion in Malaysia. They are not persecuted. Hand-kissing has nothing at all to do with religion there. It is a widely practised custom, the accepted greeting on certain formal occasions, if I understand it correctly.

A certain writer of a school textbook seems to me to be trying to change that by inculcating a radical change of behaviour in Muslims. I hope the attempt fails.

 

[FireDragon76]

They might not have that goal, but in order to function they must have markers of distinction or risk getting assimilated. Think of Roman Paganism and how loose and Universal it was. It could not compete with a unified Christianity which insisted that it was true and exclusively so.

Christianity survived because it was imposed on people, not because it was uniform. Uniformity has very little to do with the success of religion.

You can also look at how religious communities survived in terrorities dominated by an alien faith. They survived by becoming more religious and clinging to their religion ever more tightly. Jews in either Muslim or Catholic Spain for instance were incredibly strict towards Jews under their authority who dissented. Going so far as to execute heretics like the Kairites.

Again, not all religious communities are dependent on trying to coerce other people to share their faith or practices. Some religions believe truth, as they understand it, is more important than being hegemonic.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Christianity survived because it was imposed on people, not because it was uniform. Uniformity has very little to do with the success of religion.

Well that's part of it. At least when we're talking about the post Roman period. Of course I didn't have that in mind when making that point. Christianity remained distinct and was able to survive in a pluralistic religious culture and even grow in that culture because of the pluralism.

Religious pluralism as an idea doesn't really work. At least in terms of sustaining itself. Nor do I think it a problem if religion is imposed on the people of a certain society, family or community. We are never free from imposed values, why should religion be regarded as something uniquely bad in terms of it's imposition? I get why an Atheist or non-believer like yourself would be against it, but as a Christian it doesn't make any sense to accept such a standard.

Again, not all religious communities are dependent on trying to coerce other people to share their faith or practices. Some religions believe truth, as they understand it, is more important than being hegemonic.

If a religion doesn't impose itself on to the society in some way you can expect that religion to decline. People react more to the standards and expecting total freedom of practice apart from a religious or legal decree is simply anarchy. It will lead to the weakening of that religion because the way of life that religion advocates is not actually being practiced or cared about.

You might be right that not all religions care about being hegemonic, but those religions are the ones that have died the fastest. Because no one actually believes in them. Like Shinto in Japan. The Japanese don't actually believe in the gods and don't care if their shrines aren't honored.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Islam is the majority religion in Malaysia. They are not persecuted. Hand-kissing has nothing at all to do with religion there. It is a widely practised custom, the accepted greeting on certain formal occasions, if I understand it correctly.

A certain writer of a school textbook seems to me to be trying to change that by inculcating a radical change of behaviour in Muslims. I hope the attempt fails.

Never said they were persecuted, but if you want to inculcate behavior which maintains that dominance of Islam in Malaysian society you would encourage this practice.

Of course you hope it fails, because you don't have the interests of Muslims as Muslims in mind. You want them to become Universal egalitarians like us in the west and lose their religion.

I mean, I've already pointed out there is Islamic precedence for this theologically in not giving the Salam to non Muslims. No one has addressed this and yet you question the legitimacy of this practice based on what exactly? That if offends non-Muslims? That's kind of the point.

 

[Whyayeman]

Never said they were persecuted, but if you want to inculcate behavior which maintains that dominance of Islam in Malaysian society you would encourage this practice.

It is the majority religion, not the dominant religion. Do you see what an odd idea it is that one religion should dominate? Are you suggesting that Muslims want to dominate?

Should Christians dominate in USA, or New Zealand? What powers should they wield over others - and by what right?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It is the majority religion, not the dominant religion. Do you see what an odd idea it is that one religion should dominate? Are you suggesting that Muslims want to dominate?

Should Christians dominate in USA, or New Zealand? What powers should they wield over others - and by what right?

A majority religion in a country ought to, if it wants to preserve itself, exert a dominating presence over the population through various institutions. Education, culture, law and other such things. Lest the religion falter like it has in the west due to the influence of liberalism and total secularism eroding Christian standards. There's nothing odd about a religion dominating society historically. I'm not suggesting you would like it be in favour of it, or that it would benefit you.

As to the idea that Muslims want to dominate, well, historically Islam is a religion which has sought religious hegemony and subjugation of the heathen. You will never be able to remove that strain from Islam because it is inherent in the founding and liberal attempts to do so are intellectually and spiritually dubious. If I were a Muslim looking at the West, and someone like yourself advocating Western Liberal secularism which have eroded Christianity, I would be skeptical. You don't have the best interests of Muslims as Muslims in your heart.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Japanese don't actually believe in the gods and don't care if their shrines aren't honored.

They believe and honor their shrines, but most aren't religious fundamentalists or impose a particular interpretation on their religious experiences. Shinto is not a creedal religion and never has been. If people go to a shrine to pray and find spiritual purification, that's all that really matters.

Shinto is in no danger of dying out. People still go to shrines and festivals in Japan. People just don't define themselves as "religious", because the concept of religion in Japan comes from Western missionaries and neo-Confucians, not Shinto. Shinto is just one aspect of life in Japan, it isn't totalizing like Christianity.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

They believe and honor their shrines, but most aren't religious fundamentalists or impose a particular interpretation on their religious experiences. Shinto is not a creedal religion and never has been. If people go to a shrine to pray and find spiritual purification, that's all that really matters.

Shinto is in no danger of dying out. People still go to shrines and festivals in Japan. People just don't define themselves as "religious", because the concept of religion in Japan comes from Western missionaries and neo-Confucians, not Shinto. Shinto is just one aspect of life in Japan, it isn't totalizing like Christianity.

Shinto as a faith has already died out since no one actually believes it. No one actually believes the gods reside in everything and in an increasingly secular culture like Japan is, that trend can only continue. At least from what I see of Japan as an outsider. I agree it isn't totalizing, but that isn't a strength of Shintoism. It's a weakness.

 

[FireDragon76]

Shinto as a faith has already died out since no one actually believes it. No one actually believes the gods reside in everything

A gross simplification. It's more analogous to what happened with Protestantism in the US and Europe. People in Japan encountered modernity, and they respond to it in different ways.

and in an increasingly secular culture like Japan is, that trend can only continue. At least from what I see of Japan as an outsider. I agree it isn't totalizing, but that isn't a strength of Shintoism. It's a weakness.

Shinto has its origins in religious practices that are far older than your church, going all the way back to prehistory, so it seems to me a pattern of religion that has endured far longer than yours has.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

A gross simplification. It's more analogous to what happened with Protestantism in the US and Europe. People in Japan encountered modernity, and they respond to it in different ways.

Well they adopted western ways of life and similarly they are encountering many of the problems we in the West are having. I appreciate Japan being much more traditional a society and retaining it's cultural inheritance more than we have in the West, but that can only but die out the further in time we progress.

Shinto has its origins in religious practices that are far older than your church, going all the way back to prehistory, so it seems to me a pattern of religion that has endured far longer than yours has.

And the religious aspect has died, leaving only a cultural memory of practice without faith. Shinto might be older than Christianity but the form of it and vitality of it has not remained. Say what you want about the Japanese during their first encounter with Christianity, but they were willing to kill in order to maintain their way of faith from an alien faith which threatened to overturn the religious inheritance of their forefathers. That spirit no longer exists in modern Shinto.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well they adopted western ways of life and similarly they are encountering many of the problems we in the West are having. I appreciate Japan being much more traditional a society and retaining it's cultural inheritance more than we have in the West, but that can only but die out the further in time we progress.

And the religious aspect has died, leaving only a cultural memory of practice without faith.

Not true. The religious aspect has not died. Besides millions of Japanese going to shrines and seeking Buddhist rites, religious values from Buddhism and Shinto continue to permeate Japanese culture. One only has to see something like a Hayao Miyazake anime like My Neighbor Totoro, to see that values from Buddhism and Shinto still heavily influence Japanese aesthetics and culture.

For instance, the concept of mono no aware, the meditation on the pathos of things, is a concept influenced by Buddhism's doctrine of impermanence and emptiness, and it's replete in Japanese literature and film (including in My Neighbor Totoro). It is also found in the Japanese Cherry Blossom festival and the accompanying folk song Sakura (cherry tree), which is still wildly popular and widely known, even outside of Japan.

Shinto might be older than Christianity but the form of it and vitality of it has not remained. Say what you want about the Japanese during their first encounter with Christianity, but they were willing to kill in order to maintain their way of faith from an alien faith which threatened to overturn the religious inheritance of their forefathers. That spirit no longer exists in modern Shinto.

They persecuted Christianity for political reasons, not religious reasons. The Jesuits were going to turn Japan into the Philipines if they had their way.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Not true. The religious aspect has not died. Besides millions of Japanese going to shrines and seeking Buddhist rites, religious values from Buddhism and Shinto continue to permeate Japanese culture. One only has to see something like a Hayao Miyazake anime like My Neighbor Totoro, to see that values from Buddhism and Shinto still heavily influence Japanese aesthetics and culture.

For instance, the concept of mono no aware, the meditation on the pathos of things, is a concept influenced byBuddhism, and it's replete in Japanese literature and film (including in My Neighbor Totoro). It is also found in the Japanese Cherry Blossom festival and the accompanying folk song Sakura (cherry tree), which is still wildly popular and widely known, even outside of Japan.

Hayao Miyazake is an older Japanese man with an older sensibility which I can respect. There's a meme saying attributed to him that anime was a mistake and when one looks at the modern anime industry and the sort of stories it's telling, he's not wrong. It's dominated by wish fulfilment Isekai and few shows if any which encourage a deeply spiritual core.

Millions may go now, but how long will that continue for? Will they go for genuinely religious reasons or cultural reasons alone? If the latter is true then the substance of the religion has died and the gods are forgotten. I don't think your wrong that there is a spiritual element of the population, the sort of western living and way of being will eventually kill the spirituality which remains. Especially if Japan becomes more integrated with the Global community.

They persecuted Christianity for political reasons, not religious reasons. The Jesuits were going to turn Japan into the Philipines if they had their way.

I think it's cute how you think the Japanese operated on a liberal line of thought in their persecution of Christians but not on a religious line. Reminds me of how people try to read this distinction into Christian and Islamic history so as to downplay the importance of religion in various conflicts. While I don't discount political considerations, to say that the religion played no element, is a mistake as well. Especially in regards to pre-enlightenment times where religion dominated the thought of virtually ever society in the world.

 

[FireDragon76]

Hayao Miyazake is an older Japanese man with an older sensibility which I can respect. There's a meme saying attributed to him that anime was a mistake and when one looks at the modern anime industry and the sort of stories it's telling, he's not wrong. It's dominated by wish fulfilment Isekai and few shows if any encourage a deeply spiritual core.

It's inaccurate to say religion in Japan is "dead". It just follows very different patterns than in the West, like in the US or Australia. There is more to religion than its explicit manifestations. Especially for religions like Buddhism or Shinto.

Millions may go now, but how long will that continue for? Will they go for genuinely religious reasons or cultural reasons alone?

That distinction is less pertinent in a less individualistic culture like Japan. The East Asian ego structure and relating to the world is different than an American's or an Englishman's.

If the latter is true then the substance of the religion has died and the gods are forgotten.

Or the gods are understood in a less reified sense, as religious symbols.

I don't think your wrong that there is a spiritual element of the population, the sort of western living and way of being will eventually kill the spirituality which remains. Especially if Japan becomes more integrated with the Global community.

Japan is not western and will never be western- the ego structure and ways of relating as persons are fundamentally different. However, it has still encountered modernity, the same as the West. That means religion must contend with science, the same as it must in the West. People meet that challenge in different ways, just as they do in the West.

This is a South Korean state documentary on the differences between eastern and western cognition and perception:

I think it's cute how you think the Japanese operated on a liberal line of thought in their persecution of Christians but not on a religious line.

I said nothing about being liberal, I am under no such illusions.

While I don't discount political considerations, to say that the religion played no element, is a mistake as well. Especially in regards to pre-enlightenment times where religion dominated the thought of virtually ever society in the world.

Christian doctrines were not really a threat, it was the institutions Christianity brought with it, and the way it was used coercively to try to manipulate the Japanese nation. The proof Christianity itself was not a threat is the fact that Christianity is completely legal in Japan today but only a tiny minority of Japanese are actually Christian.