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Disturbing news from Greece

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by TG123, May 7, 2012.

  1. mzungu

    mzungu INVICTUS

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    [​IMG]
     
  2. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The facts are that given the various treaties and agreements between Greece and Germany over the years Germany is not obliged to pay Greece a penny. However the issue is complicated. The facts as I see them are as follows:

    Does Germany Owe Greece $95 Billion from World War II? - TIME

    -1953 London debt agreement
    In 1960 West Germany concluded a treaty with Greece and paid 115m (1960 money) Deutsche marks in compensation.

    Arguably the 1953 agreement was invalidated by the reunification of Germany and subsequent 2+4 peace agreement and thus there was a new possibility of claims.

    http://www.fontanafilm.ch/DOKFILME/argyris/pdf/Argyris_Appendix_B.pdf

    However following the 2000 Areopagus' court decision in Greece the Greek government ruled against claims by victims of Nazi massacres from making reparation claims- Greece then entered the Euro.

    Subsequently claims of this sort have been overruled by the international courts

    Greece lost the case for compensation from the German occupation | GRReporter.info- News from Greece - Breaking News, Business, Sport, Multimedia and Video.

    The recent resurgence of demands from Greece are triggered by the pain of austerity measures and the perception of hypocrisy on the part of Germany for insisting on debt repayments which it itself never made after WW2. Forgive as you have been forgiven being the Greece sentiment. The German sentiment being you cannot pay your own way despite all our help so it is time to leave- or in more diplomatic words:

     
  3. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    You clearly did not read what I wrote earlier. NeoLiberalism requires the rule of law. You are describing crony capitalism and then misapplying it to various examples. NeoLiberalism does not work in corrupt failed states.

    Germany can borrow at such low rates cause no one expects it to default on its debts. While Greece has already defaulted 6 times since 1826.

    What wrecked the UK economy in the 1970s was communists and trade unions preventing market forces from closing down obsolescent industries. Thatcher changed all that and Britain prospered until about 2003 when the Labour Party stopped behaving like the Tory party and started being socialist again. We are now in recovery mode again from socialism.

    Spains low levels of debt and serious efforts at reform make it a different situation than in Greece and one more likely to pull through. But the big issue there is how they will be assisted e.g. with or without Eurobonds.
     
  4. mzungu

    mzungu INVICTUS

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    On the contrary my dear friend; Neo Liberalism has a field day in corrupt countries. Neo Liberalism demands small and weak governments in order to conduct their business without regulatory hindrance.

    You did not watch Katastroika! The problem with your replies is based on the classic "I hate "......" and therefore I will not listen.

    NEO LIBERALISM IS CRONY CAPITALISM. After all one only needs to correlate the frequency of global economic crises with the application of Neo Liberalism.

    As for German war reparations you are constantly turning a blind eye to the other debt Germany owes Greece; That of the FORCED LOAN. Germany emptied Greece's coffers as a loan that she never repaid.

    Two things the all political systems bar neo liberalism have in common are "REGULATIONS" and "National Sovereignty". Neo Liberalism is the enemy of all nations.

    But don't be surprised if you have a rude awakening. You may support Goldman Sachs and their like but they don't give two hoots about you nor your country.

    In Greece we have a movement where from ultra right wing to far left are joining forces to fight NEO LIBERALISM.

    Do you honestly think that a social revolt in Europe will not affect you? Do you think that when Spain defaults it will not affect you?

    NEO LIBERALISM caused this and previous economic crises simply because that is how they make their money. Destroy the value of anything then buy it cheap and then sell it for a hefty profit. Well I have news for you:

    WE REFUSE TO EAT CAKE!!!!
     
  5. UnamSanctam

    UnamSanctam Guest

    +0
    Nigel Farrage is awesome, because he points out the troubling tendencies of the EU.
    However, having to pay your bills is NOT a "troubling tendency", but common sense. What is ALSO common sense, is that if you have a retirement age in the low 50s, a culture where budgets are misleading by definition (juggling with tax Euros that aren't there, much like Hitler ordered around divisions that Ivan had crushed long ago), where cheating the system is the national sport, and keep borrowing money to live the easy life, then you're going to get one fiddlestick of a tab eventually.
    In short: The bar's closed, time to pay up.

    And Germany not wanting to pay Greece's bar bill is fair enough. Now that it has chosen to, it is well within its rights to attach conditions to it.
    What, you think that everyone should just pay up so Greece can go on with business as usual?
    ....how about no?

    This problem wasn't caused by "Neo liberalism" or whatever cow manure you can come up with as an excuse. It was caused by Greece joining the Euro before it had the economic strength to do so succesfully, and by living above is means.
     
  6. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    Ever notice that when the proverbial excrement hits the fan the European countries all run for their own cover and blame each other?

    United Europe.... yeah right.
     
  7. UnamSanctam

    UnamSanctam Guest

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    This is quite true.....we're not united, and we can never be united like the US is.
    That God for that! Europe and America are two different kettles of fish.
    "Europe" is a continent made up of nation-states with our own identities and cultures, some going back 3.000 years or more.
    America is entirely artificial, build on immigrants from, mostly, Europe, with "e pluribus unum" as not only a nominal motto, but the actual guiding principle.

    This makes all the difference in the world.
     
  8. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    Brits demanded to get their money from US when they got independent? Nah they wrote off their debt....what makes a debt right off ok and what it does not? Or like Thucydetes said "for you cannot take anything from the one who has nothing"..... I guess when Spain will not be able to pay as well as Italy...the European oligarchy will get the message:doh::sorry:
     
  9. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    American is united Europe is not...Have you seen how if one state is in trouble the rest pitch in?? Europe will try to take advantage from its states... while USA does not... The rich states help and aid the poor...:doh:You cannot compare US and Europe in this regard there is antagonism and right now Germany together with the Frankish Empire rein... ;)
     
  10. UnamSanctam

    UnamSanctam Guest

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    Britain lost the war of independence. When you lose a war, you normally don't GET money. Are you suggesting that Greece declare war on Germany? And that it could WIN?
    :ahah:
    What would it pay its soldiers with? Feta cheese and ouzo? And run its tanks on goat milk?

    No, you cannot take anything from someone who doesn't have anything. But you can wait until he DOES have something, and then he can pay you back. And you can refuse to borrow him any more money, OR demand that he meets certain obligations before lending him the money.
    Greece has been living the high live, waaay above its means, and it's not just for everyone else, Germany in particular, to have to pay for Greek carelessness.
     
  11. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    It is going to be a long way...BTW we never got the May loan installment... I think that is why our cancer patients are dying ....just saying... If one wants to see a nation in their knees that is the time to do it...Good going brother Europeans :)
     
  12. UnamSanctam

    UnamSanctam Guest

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    Yes, Greece has put itself in a very, very uncomfortable position to say the least.
    But it's not the rest of Europe's fault that your health care system is so bad now, that those kinds of things happen. It's tragic. But it's your OWN fault. And you cannot expect Europe to pick up the tab for your economic irresponsibility.
    Isn't the lack of payment of the May loan installment due to insecurity as to whether or not Greece would meet the criteria for the loan, due to the political problems?
    Yeah, good going Greece. You brought yourself in a lot of trouble, and expect the rest of Europe to pay for your party.
     
  13. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    It could run its tanks on ouzo, I'm sure.:swoon:
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  14. TerranceL

    TerranceL Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?

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    Do you think that with people going from one country to another in europe for work/vacation/economy issue that the continent will become more ... well... united?

    I mean if you look at american history we weren't always united, even before the civil war we had conflicts between states that often became violent.
     
  15. UnamSanctam

    UnamSanctam Guest

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    Never tasted it....tried the Turkish raki, though....not pleasant either! :S

    I'm sceptical.
    The first thing that "united" the Americans were the common enemy: The British crown. But after that, there was much that seperated the more industrialized/mercantile North from the more rural/agricultural South. And, as far as I've understood your history, also from what you've said just now, that was pretty much how it went until mass immigration from Europe started in the 19th century.
    America changed irreversably from more or less displaying two sides of English/British society to being a conglomerate of different cultures. You'd have not only Irishmen, but Italians, Germans, French (especially after the Louisiana purchase), Danes, etc, living together in one country. Over the course of the decades, this necessitated a more "cosmopolitan" attitude, focusing on people as "Americans", developing a sort of national identity, and, of course, the national mythos (note that I'm not using "myth" in its derogatory form here) about America as the country where you can work your way up from shoe polisher to CEO. The land of opportunities. So the American national identity is based not primarily on ethnicity or language like the Europeans' are, but on the idea of America as "a light unto the nations", a country of equality and opportunity.

    That's the fundamental difference between America and Europe. We might travel more, and get to know and understand eachother more than before, but we are ancient states with ancient cultures and ancient peoples. And those that aren't, aren't very stable either (Sorry, Belgium, but I'm right).
     
  16. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    The Greek soldiers are NOT paid army like SOME countries *cough* we have soldiers who fight for their honor and their family honor... Let's not be funny about the bravety of the Greek army... Churchill said that "the heroes fight like the Greeks not the heroes like the Greeks" ;) Not my words...Some old Brits appreciated Hellenes more than any modern time would eve do...

    Greece have been living the "high life" ?? How? With salaries half than your average salary in your country? Get real please!
     
  17. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    We expect those who were responsible for the crisis meaning the whole of Europe to fix its act! If it was ONLY a Greece problem how come Italy and Spain are busting?? I am sure you will come up with some excuses for the matter of fact is that the northern states always wanted to subject the southern. I do not see how they all had bad govent's :( I think it will come a time when all will blow over and we will find the truth. Although the siemen's scandal is the tip of the iceberg lying underneath... So spare me the accusations... The responsibility is divided as you as "parteners" are supposed to help instead of pointing fingers...:sorry:
     
  18. Philothei

    Philothei Love never fails

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    Countries like England, France and Germany and all European countries will never put down their nationality for the common good ;) Simply put imperialism is alive and well in Europe thus the economic crisis...England was able to keep its own currency...Greece was not given that choice...Does this tell ya somethin'??
     
  19. KarateCowboy

    KarateCowboy Moderately moderate

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    Well, they already have the Socialism. That's half the equation.

    Pretty stupid for the author to call them right wing extremists. Sorry, no such thing as a libertarian authoritarian
     
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