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"Distinction Theology?"

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Dave-W, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Well the more you agree with rabbinics the more receptive Rabbis will be. This was true in pauls day as well as today.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  2. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    Amen, Amen
    Just as the Torah speaks of singularity concerning the native and sojournerer.
    Exodus 12
    Numbers 15

    One In the Torah of the Spirit. All being heirs to the promised blessings in His body.

    Blessed be The Holy One.
     
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  3. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    Agreed Îsʰrəél was to stand in the office of the firstborn and mediate between the Sovereign Author and the sons of Seth, however the children of Îsʰrəél declined from the Vocal Covenant, whereby the tribe of Levi came to stand in their stead, with Aaron (an actual firstborn) presiding over them.

    The goal never changed, but because the children were not ready, Levi was to mediate for Îsʰrəél until they were ready to take hold of the Vocal Covenant as a priestly nation, at which time they would mediate for the remaining sons of Seth, who likewise upon conversion would be brought into the Covenant, end game, meaning everyone is equal to a King, Priest, and Prophet, at which time there would no longer be a need for anyone to teach their neighbor, let alone appropriate for a priest to enter a temple to minister, not when the Spirit of Alôhâyîm has filled the temple.

    The Theology is flawed, first by overlooking the adoption of converts, which makes one an equal member of the kingdom, and secondly it stops short of what happens once mediation has successfully served it's purpose.

    Abvraham was called out from the Gentiles, to keep the Torah Covenant, do we still refer to him as a Gentile? No we do not!
     
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  4. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Abraham remained a stranger and sojourner in the land. What Torah covenant?
    De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
     
  5. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    Abvraham is the Righteous one whom Alôhâyîm Called from the East, out of the land of the Kʰeltdî (Celtics, Chaldeans, Babylonians), and he was Called to receive an inheritance that was occupied by Goiyem.

    "And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    Because that Abvraham obeyed My Voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my תורת (Laws)." [Genesis 26:4-5]

    "As for me, behold, My Covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.

    And I will make you exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come out of you.

    And I will Establish my Covenant between me and you and your seed after you in their generations for an everlasting Covenant, to be a Alôhâyîm unto you, and to your seed after you.

    And I will give unto you, and to your seed after you, the land wherein you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their Alôhâyîm.

    And Alôhâyîm said unto Abvraham, You shall Keep My Covenant therefore, You, and your seed after you in their generations.

    This is My Covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your seed after you; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

    And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a Token of The Covenant between me and you." [Genesis 17:4, & 6-11]

    The Circumcision of the foreskin is a Token of The actual Covenant, when He says, "This is My Covenant..." He is referring to the real-time conversation, and open line of communication where one is able to hear His Voice, whereby if one willfully Circumcise Pride and Vanity from their Heart, they may also follow His guidance and instructions as father Abvraham did.

    Abvraham is the Father of our Faith, and it is His resurrected body that shall stand in the Kingdom on the day many of the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness.

    This is The Covenant....

    "Now therefore, if you will obey My Voice indeed, and keep My Covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

    And you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak unto the children of Israel." [Exodus 19:5-6]

    "If you shall listen closely unto the Voice of Yéhûʷəʰ your Alôhâ, to Keep his commandments and his statutes which are (also) written in this book of the law, and if you turn unto Yéhûʷəʰ your Alôhâ with all your heart, and with all your soul.

    For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not hidden from you, neither is it Far Off.

    It is not in heaven, that you need to say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

    Neither is it beyond the sea, that you need to say, Who shall cross over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

    But the Word is very Near (Close) to you, in your Mouth, and In Your Heart, that you may do it.

    See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil;

    In that I command you this day to love Yéhûʷəʰ your Alôhâ, to Walk in his ways, and to Keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and Yéhûʷəʰ your Alôhâ shall bless you in the land whither you are going to possess it." [Deuteronomy 30:10-16]

    "And I have placed My Words in your Mouth, and I have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, you are my people." [Isaiah 51:16]
     
  6. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    There was a Torah Covenant at that time, but not in the sense of the Torah "Law" of today's orthodox Judaism. God's Torah at the time of Abraham was obeying the Word of God and Abraham was counted as being righteous by God. King Melchizedek of Salem (possibly Jerusalem) was the high priest during the life of Abraham. No where in the Bible does it ever imply that Abraham worshiped idols or was considered a pagan in the eyes of God? One might even say that Abraham was a Torah Man in that he obeyed God.

    Genesis 14:19-20
    19 and he (Melchizedek) blessed Abram and said: “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth,
    20 and blessed by God Most High, who has delivered you enemies into your hand." Then Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything.​

    Possibly the biggest mistake Israel made (IMO) was leaving the Promised Land and resettling in Egypt. Thus due to living in a pagan culture for 400 years God had to establish a Torah Covenant of "laws" with the Ten Commandments plus more and more commands with the purpose being to prevent Israel from embracing the pagan influence of their new neighbors. Joseph's two Egyptian son's descendants comprise a significant populous of the Lost Tribes.
     
  7. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    I tend to see the same thing.
    Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.​
    God used Joseph in Egypt to save many lives.
    Well, I think Israel had quit circumcising their Children.
    Acta 7:17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
    18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.
    19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.
    20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father’s house three months: {exceeding fair: or, fair to God }
    21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh’s daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.

    Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

    Jos 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. {sharp … : or, knives of flints }
    3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins. {sharp … : or, knives of flints } {the hill … : or, Gibeah-haaraloth }
    4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
    5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Thought processes same wave length. It resonates.
     
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  9. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Especially, the little girls, however Moses was circumcised of flesh.

    Question:
    Was Israel as a nation in the Tanakh ever circumcised of heart (Yes or No)?
    Deuteronomy 10:16; Leviticus 26:41; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 6:10; Jeremiah 9:26; Ezekiel 44:7–9 ... If not when do you believe Israel as a distinct people will experience a circumcision of heart?

    Perhaps the reason the Op added a question mark ("Distinction Theology?") is because the true distinction theology has not yet happened when all of Israel experiences a circumcision of heart (including women and girls). :) Do you think some Jews and non-Jews have already received a circumcision of heart? Do you think a person of "faith" (whether male or female) that has a circumcised heart needs to also be circumcised of flesh?

    What do you think the expression "remove the foreskin of your hearts" means to you and do you believe that is a better distinction theology than the circumcision of flesh?


     
  10. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    A "kingdom of priests" or kingdom annointed from priests. Abraham served at the altar (priest), was called a "mighty prince" (Genesis 23:6). In fact Melchizedek was a king, he blessed Abraham. The lesser is blessed by the greater (Hebrews 7:7). When Abram was called, was he a Jew or gentle? Abram was a gentle, yet he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of righteousness. Abram was not called a "mighty prince" until after his conversion to the tenants of Judaism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  11. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    Circumcision from the heart can not be properly taught, illustrated or understood without circumcision from the flesh. The "foreskin of sin" must be permanently removed; the "foreskin of flesh" never grows back.
     
  12. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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  13. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    Which came first circumcision from the heart or flesh?
     
  14. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    I am not following you here.
    No, not until Christ.
    De 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Lu 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,


    Yes Some Jews and Gentiles ….being born again...
    Ac 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
    No.
    I think it means to be circumcised in the heart.​
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  15. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

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    Abraham was obedient, circumcised in his heart. Late in his age, he circumcised himself in his flesh. You see circumcision must occur in the heart prior to circumcision in the flesh; but Torah teaches us that circumcision is from the father. Abraham circumcised every male in his household, even Isaac on the 8th day as the law says. Isaac had a righteous father (Abraham) who walked by faith, this is why he, Paul and Yeshua were circumcised on the 8th day. Ishmael was not circumcised on the 8th day.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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  17. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Agree, and we also know that besides the first 3000 Jews ushering in this new covenant (not theology) that it was also open/available to non-Jewish believers made possible by Messiah Yeshua / Christ Jesus to those that trusted in GOD! So, it would seem we both agree that today both Messianic Jews and non-Jewish evangelicals can experience a circumcised of heart via GOD'S Distinct Covenant as opposed to what D.T. Landcaster refers to as the "Distinction Theology" of Messianic Judaism.

    The conflict i see with this thread is in its Title "Distinction Theology" by Messianic Judaism's theological interruption of GOD'S new "Distinct Covenant" for both Jew and non-jew. However, what Landcaster (FFOZ) and other Messianic organizations are echoing is that their interruption of GOD'S new "Messianic Covenant" (circumcision of one's heart) refers to a "Distinction Theology" that is different from the theology of evangelical Christianity. Whether an evangelical or a Messianic Jew the idea of man's "theology" has so invaded GOD'S new covenant resulting in more divisiveness than unity. Divisiveness not only among evangelicals, but also within Messianic Judaism because of man's pervasive theological nature.

    Messianic Judaism might contend that the Jerusalem Council (thanks in no small measure to Paul) was the first distinct theology by man for distinguishing non-Jewish gentile believers from Jewish believers in Messiah Yeshua as (further elaborated in portions of Paul's letters). However, isn't the true "Distinction Cpvenant" supposed to apply equally to both Jew and non-Jew (Yes or No)?

    Acts 15:8-11 (Kefa speaking)
    8 And God, who knows the heart, bore them witness by giving the Ruach HaKodesh to them, just as he did to us;
    9 that is, he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their heart by trust.
    10 So why are you putting God to the test now by placing a yoke on the neck of the talmidim which neither our fathers nor we have had the strength to bear?
    11 No, it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered — and it’s the same with them.”

    Agree, so being it's possible for both Jews (blood ancestry) and non-Jews to have a circumcised heart as followers of Messiah Yeshua/Christ Jesus the real question seems to be whether the circumcision of the heart is a "Distinct Covenant" of God or a Distinction Theology of D.T. Landcaster (FFOZ) if the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:2-35) is the first time that man's theology made a distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish believer/follower of Messiah Yeshua/Christ Jesus ?

    Thus (IMO) two questions for both to consider that i'd appreciate your "Yes or No"...

    1) Do you think the understanding of the majority of today's Christian evangelicals (evangelical theology) with respect to the circumcision of one's heart the same as implied in the Word as also available to gentiles that obeyed GOD: Deuteronomy 10:16; Leviticus 26:41; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 6:10; Jeremiah 9:26; Ezekiel 44:7–9 (Yes or No)
    2) Do you think the understanding (MJ Distinction Theology) of the majority of Messianic Judaism with respect to the circumcision of one's heart is the same as implied in the Word as also available to gentiles that obeyed GOD: Deuteronomy 10:16; Leviticus 26:41; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 6:10; Jeremiah 9:26; Ezekiel 44:7–9 (Yes or No)
     
  18. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Hasn't that been what God intended all along? This idea that Pentecost brought in something new is a strange thought to me. The Scriptures teach that the conditions of salvation are the same for Jews and Gentiles Acts 10:34,35.

    Prophet Isaiah which may express the universal designation of God's kingdom of priests as a mentor for spiritual and moral guidance for the entire world. Is 49:6 Yea, He saith, 'It is too light a thing for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the scions of Israel, and I shall submit you as a light unto the nations, to be My salvation until the end of the earth'.

    Is 42:6 I the LORD have called unto you in righteousness, and have taken hold of your hand, and submitted you as the people's covenant, as a light unto the nations.

    If the nation of Israel had been a light unto the nations from the beginning, sharing the light of salvation, spreading the good news from Mount Sinai, Pentecost would have been even more explosive upon all nations.

    But then they failed even at the foot of the mountain to be inspired with God's vision.


    Numbers 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
     
  19. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    As a followup to my 2 questions to both vis and ralliann would you agree that Messianic Judaism (Distinction Covenant) firmly believes that HaShem's Word (Tanakh) specifically states that a non-Jewish gentile cannot enter GOD'S Sanctuary unless circumcised of heart and flesh (in that order) ...
    Deuteronomy 10:16; Leviticus 26:41; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 6:10; Jeremiah 9:26; Ezekiel 44:7–9

    Lulav
    has possibly been the most vocal/adamant supporter of thee 'Root' of Messianic Judaism. In other words unlike most evangelicals, Messianic Judaism does not discard the OT, but embraces it as bedrock supporting what Christendome refers to as the NT. Thus, as example, Lulav and other [orthodox] MJ's firmly believe today's non-Jewish talmidim (disciples) of Moshiach Yeshua (Christ Jesus) be circumcised of both heart and flesh according to the Word (Law) of HaShem. An example being that it be mandatory for non-Jewish talmidim participating in a Pesach Haggadah be circumcised of flesh. MJ members would not dispute that Lulav's beliefs represent the law of HaShem that is still mandatory today by His talmidim. Thus, the reestablishment of Messianic Judaism (long overdue) as representative of true 1st Century Christianity.

    Therefore, Lulav and other Messianic Jews would contend that true Messianic Judaism is a Distinction Covenant first established in the Tanach not a "Distinction Theology" that only became available to both Jew and Gentile at Shavuot after the resurrection of Moshiach Yeshua.

    If i am in any way misrepresenting Lulav's belief or that of [orthodox] Messianic Judaism i sincerely apologize.
     
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    It would be nice if the circumcision of the flesh or heart was a mark of the members of MJ, but alas, it is not even a requirement.
     
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