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Disobeying church authority

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by joyfulthanks, Sep 15, 2006.

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  1. Charles YTK

    Charles YTK Well-Known Member

    My point concerning Luther applies to all Church fathers and any who would lead the Church in some direction. They are all men and all subject to compromise. How could luther hope to reform the church when he himself was corrupt in his heart filled with ungodly hatred for the very people we were commissioned to bring Christs love to? And his attitude toward anyone who observed the law kept the sabbath and such was also seen in many other church fathers.

    So what was lacking? They were not apostles and were not anointed, hands layed on them and empowered to do the job. In other words they were working in their own power and wills. An anointed man does God's will. Look at Elijah, Elisa, Samuel, Zechariah, the apostles. They are pretty much faultless. So without that empowerment from the laying on of hands and anointing by God, it all goes the way of all works of the flesh.

    So we should never jump on board with these sort of things. There are many churches that can not tell righteous from profane. They don't know right from wrong. Their leaders are corrupt. There is only one who we are to be disciples to, and that is Yeshua (Jesus) We do what our master says. It is a master slave relationship. And until Elijah comes again in the end of days we have no reason to follow anyone else. He will come with Gods anoiting and to serve Gods will.
  2. BroGinder

    BroGinder Veteran

    I believe it is the sheeps job to ensure they are not being led astray. Even the Lord our God says prove me. I would surely think that those placed infront of us as shepards would want us to prove them as well. To read the word ensure that their teachings are acurate and not an abomination.

    If you find that a teaching or a comment was not scriptural, I would approach the clergy one on one and discuss it. Maybe it was out of context (I would hope) or it was clearly wrong and he should take the time to explain or define and set it straight. If not I wouls surely explain to them that you would be leaving the Church.

    Simple thought from a simple man
  3. ElijahFalling

    ElijahFalling Guest

    Christ has the answer, as usual.

    "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
    -Mathew 23:8-10

    Jesus establishes the true church structure in a nutshell. There is no such thing as "church authority" by God's meausre, there is only God and we are all brothers. Seting up or reinforcing church power structures is disobediant to God.
  4. JimfromOhio

    JimfromOhio Life of Trials :)

    We must be careful not to disobey God's Word to any church reasoning. God's Holiness, Christians' Standards and Sin. If God was in a church meeting today to discuss a moral change within the local church, how would you react? Would God change His holiness in order to change the church's views on various sins? Why people leaving Churches that teaches God's holiness? Why some are moving to another church that don't really teach God's holiness? Some denominations have "relaxed" God's holiness without God's permission.

    Just as Luther did when he wrote 95 Theses regarding man's doctrines. I will disobey man's doctrines that may be taught within a local church or denomination. I would rather disobey the teachings of man rather than disobeying God.

    In Acts 5, Peter responded to Sanhedrin, the high priest that "We must obey God rather than men!"
  5. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran


    In the Old Testament, the name "man of God" occurs more than sixty times and consistently refers to those who receive direct revelation from God. For example:

    Deuteronomy 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.

    1Kings 17:24 And the woman said to Elijah, "Now I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in your mouth is truth."

    2Kings 5:8 But when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, he sent to the king

    Nehemiah 12:24 ...give thanks, according to the commandment of David the man of God

    In the New Testament, the term "man of God" or "men of God" occurs only three times. When used in 2Peter 1:21 (KJV/NKJ), it refers to prophets and thus repeats the Old Testament usage. Then Paul used the name "man of God" in reference to apostle Timothy: "as for you, man of God, aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness" (1st Tim 6:11). Given this overall biblical pattern, "man of God" is an exclusive name designating those of highest authority - it does not refer to each and every believer. Therefore the third and final reference to "man of God" in the New Testament, again found in Paul's letter to apostle Timothy, is significant:

    All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. I charge you [apostle Timothy] in the presence of God...preach the word, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching...discharge all the duties of your ministry (2nd Timothy 3:16-4:5).
    Since the bible places apostles at the center of biblical interpretation, applies the name "man of God" in an exclusive fashion, and indeed calls apostle Timothy a "man of God" (1st Tim 6:11) - the weight of evidence indicates that "man of God" above refers to apostles. Certainly had Paul intended to reference all Christians in 2nd Timothy 3:17, then saying instead "...that the saints may be complete..." would have properly made the point by harmonizing with the sixty plus uses of the common word "saint" or "saints" in the New Testament. Yet Paul chose the rare and exclusive term. And indeed the underlined words above show the connection to the formal work of a minister.

    So, though we and our spiritual leaders are all the same in respect to salvation (Gal 3:26-28, 1st Corinthians 12:12-13), what we've learned is that we are very different in respect to spiritual office, ministry, and authority. As it is written:
    1st Cor 12:13 By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, yet...
    17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
    18 But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
    19 If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
    20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body...
    28 God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
    29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
    30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
    As another example of our different roles, consider the "anointing of the sick" which is a ministry given to elders (aka "prophets") rather than all the saints:
    James 5:14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
    But we've seen more than enough examples from Scripture. Clearly part of accepting how "God arranged the organs in the body" (1Cor 12:18) is by embracing "the household of God built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets - Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone" (Eph 2:19-20). Indeed, through our apostles and elders we gain "insight into the mystery of Christ which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets [elders] by the Spirit" (Eph 3:4-5, Rom 10:13-15). Their ministry is our gain, and essential for Gospel purity kept "in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1st Tim 3:15).

    Now although the church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth," nevertheless Jesus also revealed that in its ranks there may be - like apostle Judas the betrayer - those leaders who are "wicked servants."
    Mathew 24:45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household , to give them their food at the proper time?

    46 Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.

    47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.

    48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, `My master is delayed,'

    49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eats and drinks with the drunken,

    50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know,

    51 and will punish him
    Likewise, though Jesus calls the church the "the kingdom of heaven," nevertheless He reveals how it will be burdened with many who are wicked - straight until the Day of judgment.
    Matthew 13:24 Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, `Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?' 28 He said to them, `An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, `Then do you want us to go and gather them?' 29 But he said, `No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"
    From this parable we know that quitting and leaving the church, because it sins, is not God's will: "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another-- and all the more as you see the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25). Rather than judging the church, we should learn how to deal with each "apostle Judas" as well as "evil men and impostors who will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived" (2Tim 3:13). Starting with the matter of these "imposter" leaders, lets consider how to discern true apostles who we do not judge - from false apostles who we cannot tolerate (Revelation 2:2):

    From this parable we know that quitting and leaving the church, because it sins, is not God's will: "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another-- and all the more as you see the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25). Rather than judging the church, we should learn how to deal with each "apostle Judas" as well as "evil men and impostors who will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived" (2Tim 3:13). Starting with the matter of these "imposter" leaders, lets consider how to discern true apostles who we do not judge - from false apostles who we cannot tolerate (Revelation 2:2):
    2nd Corinthians 11:2 I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband. 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, [unfortunately] you submit to it readily enough. 5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6 Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not in knowledge; in every way we have made this plain to you in all things. 7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them that I might minister unto you... 9 So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, this boast of mine shall not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. 11 And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those ["super-apostles"] who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. (cf. Romans 16:17-18, Galatians 1:6-9). ​
    As part of the context above, Paul says false apostles "commend themselves" and that "it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man who the Lord commends" (2Cor 10:12.18). Indeed, biblically any time the commission of a spiritual leader is expressly recorded - it is always from miracles or succession rather than self-commendation:

    Moses lays hands on Joshua in succession (Numbers 27:15-20, Deuteronomy 34:8-10)

    Miracles attest that Elisha succeeded Elijah (2nd Kings 2:8-15)

    Aaron's appointment, after Korah's rebellion, is confirmed with a miracle (Numbers 17:1-10)

    Those returning from Babylonian captivity without records of priestly descent and succession had priestly privileges suspended, such as authorative exposition (Nehemiah 8:2-8), until a known priest consulted Urim and Thummin (Ezrah 2:59-63

    Prophecy pointed to John the baptist (Malachi 4:5, Matthew 11:14) and miracles marked his conception (Luke 1:5-24)

    Elders and deacons are appointed by apostles (Titus 1:5, Acts 6:3, Acts 14:20.23)

    After Judas perished, Peter recounts "let another take his office" whereupon Matthias was selected for apostolic succession (Acts 1:15ff)

    Paul's apostleship was designated by miracles (Acts 9, 2Cor 12:12 cf. Mark 16:17)

    Thus we should likewise expect our apostles today to originate in miracles or succession, and our elders in turn to be appointed by apostles. In contrast, those who instead "commend themselves" by credentials of education or trying merely to behave like an elder or apostle - these are not our elders or apostles.
  6. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

    For clarity, the Traditions of the Catholics are written.
    We call it a catechism.
    We also use the scriptures to help in the doctrines of the faith.

    Our leaders must be refined in the united Catholic theology. If they are not, [depending on their position] we have ways to remove them.

    We always appeal to their 'boss'. Which would be a Bishop. If a Bishop is in error, we appeal to the Pope...and Vatican.

    If the Pope is an antipope, he will be removed by the Church. [Cardinals I suppose]

    In our religion, each man must teach the same teachings passed on through the generations.

    They must study for several years all of scriptures, and Tradition. And they are taught how scriptures are meant in Tradition.

    Whether it be cultural, or historical.

    The Church has the same readings in every single CC in every nation. The Mass is said the same in every CC in every nation. [*languages vary by nation]

    The only difference we will see from one CC to the next would be the Homily. Which is the preaching of the priest/Bishop according to Tradition of the scriptures. [This is the only portion personalized...as to how they teach the One Apostolic Traditional teachings]

    So...basically, all of us are united into One Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and One faith.

    The teaching authority is of the Universal Unity in one structure of belief and theology.

    The doctrines are known, and the dogmas are set.
    To which we cannot differ an opinion to our own preferences.

    Therefore, the magisterium must be in full compliance to the strictest of teachings. Of which we ourselves do not have authority over the Church, but the Church has authority over us. So we cannot fall into error.

    If we disobey the Church, we are not united to the one set of truths. Therefore, what is the point of professing our faith in the Church if we fail to adhere to the doctrines which have been measured thru history?

    We can question HOW things came to be, but we should not place our own ideals above the Churches.

    I will add, according to many converts...not all doctrines are easy to follow and accept immediately. But eventually the grace to understand them, by their confession to be faithful, does open them up to a deeper understanding of them.

  7. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

    The Church did not throw out the men who followed the Sunday rule, because as Paul said...we are not to be judged according to the Sabbaths.

    Because the Sabbaths were no longer adhered to.

    The CC [the first Christians] would have excommunicated anyone who did not fully agree to that which was taught since the beginning.

    If they are the early Church fathers, then they were following Tradition of the Apostles.

    If not, they were excommunicated. Tertullian was eventually excommunicated [as a pity, he did keep the Tradition for so long] and so were others who did not keep the same faith kept through the oral and known teachings.

    The Church did not one day suddenly decide Sunday was better.
    Had it been the Sabbath that was kept, the earliest writings outside of scriptures [which scripture can be intropolated and often is] would have provided that in writing.
    But it never has, and has maintained Sunday.

    IF we disagree to this, then this means the Truth came and went. WHICH could NOT happen according to the Holy Spirit protecting the truth. As I previously showed you the Didache, and the writing of St Ignatius.

    Luther was eventually excommunicated by his willful desire for such, and for throwing out doctrines...and displaying obvious disobedience.
  8. Assisi

    Assisi not a sissy


    'see how these Christians love one another'
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