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Discussion of Mat 5:17-18

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by ace of hearts, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    I'm interested in discussing all the key words and phrases of the above.

    Of special interest to me are these words and their phrases -

    1. destroy
    2. fulfil
    3. jots
    4. tittles
    5. fulfilled
    Yes other passages apply to and are affected by Mat 5:17-18 and are welcome to the discussion.
     
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Can we agree that Christ perfectly fulfilled (complied with) the Law to "Not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 and to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

    1. Moral Law can be perfectly fulfilled (complied with) and doing so does not give others the open door to be immoral and not be guilty of sin.

    2. Predictive Law in ceremonies can be fulfilled (fulfilling a promise, as predicted) - and does not obligate anyone else to fulfill that prediction.

    So then "perfectly fulfilled" as two contexts.
     
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    As posted earlier JESUS did not fulfill God's LAW so that we are now free to break it. JESUS fulfilled all things written about him in the LAW and the prophets and perfectly obeyed God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) in order for him to be our perfect sacrifice for our sins. God's WORD does not teach lawlessness. According to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNES *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172.

    God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20. According to God's WORD if we break any one of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN *JAMES 2:10-11.

    According to God's WORD all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    It is JESUS that says all those who KNOWINGLY follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God brother not me *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Who then do we BELIEVE and FOLLOW God or men *ROMANS 3:4. Yep I know who I believe. You provide your own words. My words are not my own but God's WORD. It is the Word of God that will be our judge come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48.

    As posted earlier the first part of the scripture you quote testifies against you. Think not that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to satisfy." (Matthew 5:17).

    [17], Think not that I am come to destroy the <1> law, or <2> the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to <3> fulfill.

    NOTE: JESUS did not come to destroy or stop καταλύω; kataluō the law or the prophets (this is referring to torah both the 10 commandments and the Mosaic book of the covenant prophets and psalms).

    The GREEK word fulfill used πληρόω; plēroō here has many applications depending on the context of use. The many meanings of fulfil πληρόω; plēroō are From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

    In the context above we are referring to the law, prophets and Psalms. The CONTEXT is that JESUS has not come to destroy or bring to an END to the law, prophets and psalms. So the GREEK word use here for fulfill based on the rules of CONTEXT cannot mean bring to an end or expire. The meaning here then considering the GREEK word and primary context whics not to destroy being used then is to SATISFY, to EXECUTE, ACCOMPLISH, PERFECT or FULFILL the requirements of the LAW and the PROPHETS and PSALMS which were spoken of JESUS. This is re-emphasized in v18

    [18], For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    NOTE: The topic is still the same here in v18 and the CONTEXT therefore is still the LAW and the prophets and Psalms. This passage is referring to HEAVEN and EARTH passing away. This does not take place until after the SECOND COMING. As HEAVEN and EARTH have not passed away and as yet there has been no SECOND COMING it should be very clear that all things concerning CHRIST and God's plan of salvation for mankind written in the law and the prophets and Psalms have NOT YET BEEN FULFILLED.

    ..............

    CONCLUSION The GREEK meaning of fulfill in v17 πληρόω; plēroō defines it's meaning from the CONTEXT of application which is JESUS saying he has not come to destroy or bring to an end the law and the prophets (torah) the GREEK application for fulfill then cannot mean bring to an end as this is not the meaning of the context used before by JESUS saying he has not come to bring to an end (destroy). The context meaning of fulfill in v17 πληρόω; plēroō therefore means to SATISFY, to EXECUTE, ACCOMPLISH, PERFECT or FULFILL the requirements of the LAW and the PROPHETS and PSALMS which were spoken of JESUS.
    Not all thing have been fulfilled concerning JESUS in the law and the prophets and Psalms as Heaven and Earth have not passed away and there has not been a second coming to complete God's plan of salvation for mankind so not all things have been fulfilled. What has been fulfilled is Christs work on earth but not in HEAVEN.
    ..........

    With these thoughts in mind brother let's move through the scriptures of MATTHEW 5:17-29 slowly as they further show that none of God's Commandments have been abolished.

    MATTHEW 5:17-29
    [17], Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    [18], For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    [19], Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    [20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    [21], You have heard that it was said of them of old time, You shall not kill; and whoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    [22], But I say to you, That whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    [23], Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has ought against you;
    [24], Leave there your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
    [25], Agree with your adversary quickly, whiles you are in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison.
    [26], Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out there, till you have paid the uttermost farthing.
    [27], You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not commit adultery:
    [28], But I say to you, That whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    [29], And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

    [31], It has been said, Whoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorce:
    [32], But I say to you, That whoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery.

    Yep Jesus is certainly referencing the 10 Commandment applying them to our very thoughts and feelings.

    ............

    NOTE: After stating that none of God's LAW (10 Commandments) have been abolished v17-19, Jesus then goes on to say; v20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Jesus then goes on and amplifies the application of God's LAW to the heart (thoughts and feelings) which is the very root of sin saying that if we lust after women we are committing Adultery and being angry with your brother as murder from the 10 commandments as examples in v17-27.Jesus starts out by saying;

    Jesus finishes by saying in v48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    NOTE: The application here in v19-32 changes to specifically focus now on God's 10 commandments where JESUS is saying whoever breaks any one of God's 10 Commandmetns shall be called the least in the KINGDOM of HEAVEN; that is by those already there. The least in the KINGDOM of HEAVEN are those who do not go there. The application of here of the 10 Commandments is shown in v20-22 and v32 where JESUS uses examples of the commandments he is referring to citing "YOU SHALL NOT KILL" and "COMMIT ADULTERY" which are two of God's 10 Commandments found in EXODUS 20:13-14. It is pretty clear here that if JESUS came to put an end to God's 10 Commandments he would not be teaching them and increasing their application to the inside out in verses 19-22 and verses 31-32.

    ..............

    CONCLUSION: JESUS did not come to destroy the law or the prophets he came to fulfill them. The are not fulfilled. Christs work on earth is fulfilled but not God's plan of salvation which is also written in the law and the prophets and Psalms. God's eternal law (the 10 Commandments) are not abolished and not to be broken.

    ..............

    Now we have had an overall look at MATTHEW 5:17 in context with the rest of the chapter to v32, lets focus our attention to MATTHEW 5:20.

    [20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting MATTHEW 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *ISAIAH 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART.

    It is BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. We all have a sinful nature *ROMANS 7. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

    If we are not BORN AGAIN into the NEW COVENANT promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. ALL those who KNOWINGLY break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

    God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

    RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9.

    This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

    Ignoring God's WORD does not make it disappear.

    Sorry brother God's WORD disagrees with you. Now where is the scripture that says God’s 4th Commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? There is no scripture is there? If there is no scriprture for this tradition why do you not believe God’s WORD?

    God's WORD is only sent in love and as a help to you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Some more examples here of how JESUS fulfills the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the law (Not God's ETERNAL LAW; 10 commandment) from the OLD COVENANT - law and the prophets and psalms.

    As poster earlier in another thread Luke 24:44 disagrees with your interpretation brother. It is not saying God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) are abolished. God's WORD does not teach lawlessness. It is saying that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    The Book of the law of MOSES *EXODUS 24:7 is not God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) *EXODUS 20:1-17 that in the NEW COVENANT give us the KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11.

    Here let's look at some examples again through the scriptures showing the meaning of

    LUKE 24:44. [44], And he said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    Why do you think I always say to you if you do not understand what the shadow laws are from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is that the OLD pointed to?

    What do you think the animal sacrifices pointed to and the earlthy Sanctuary and levitical priesthood pointed to? In regards to LUKE 24:44 you do know the Mosaic shadow laws, the prophets and Psalms all pointed to JESUS right as the coming Messiah e.g. *DANIEL 9:24-27; PSALMS 40; HEBREWS 10; PSALMS 22 etc etc...

    Some (not exhaustive) more OLD testament scriptures of JESUS fulfilled in the new testament

    [1] Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15; Matthew 1:20; Galatians 4:4
    [2] Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-6
    [3] Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:22-23; Luke 1:26-31
    [4] Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Romans 9:5
    [5] Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19; Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
    [6] Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
    [7] Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14
    [8] Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33; Romans 1:3
    [9] Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7; Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33; Hebrews 1:8-12
    [10] Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23
    [11] Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15
    [12] A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18
    13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
    [14] Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8; Isaiah 53:3; John 1:11; John 7:5
    [15] Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:20-22
    [16] Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6; Matthew 11:13-14
    [17] Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7; Matthew 3:16-17
    [18] Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1; Matthew 2:23
    [19] Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2; Matthew 4:13-16
    [20] Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4; Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:10-15; 34-35
    [21] Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-; Luke 4:18-19
    [22] Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:5-6
    [23] Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6; Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 27:37; Mark 11:7-11
    [24] Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2; Matthew 21:16
    [25] Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9 Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48 Matthew 26:14-16
    [26] Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13; Matthew 27:9-10
    [27] Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11; Mark 14:57-58
    [28] Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7; Mark 15:4-5
    [29] Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67
    [30] Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19; Psalm 69:4; John 15:24-25
    [31] Messiah would be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27-28
    [32] Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; John 19:28-30
    [33] Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10; John 20:25-7
    [34] Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8; Luke 23:35
    [35] Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34; Matthew 27:35-36
    [36] Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:20; John 19:33-36
    [37] Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46
    [38] Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
    [39] Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34
    [40] Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60
    [41] Messiah would resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10; Psalm 49:15 Matthew 28:2-7; Acts 2:22-32
    [42] Messiah would ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51
    43 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18; Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19; Matthew 22:44
    [44] Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8 (source)

    Brother the above are only some of many more. We haven't even started talking about CIRCUMCISION and some of the other SHADOW laws associated with the annual feast days, new moons and special ceremonial sabbaths that could fall on any day of the week (not God's 4th commandment) from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7.

    Hope this helps to explain your question in relation to Luke 24:44

    Sorry brother God's WORD disagrees with you.
     
  5. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Sleep is for the weak

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    In the context, Jesus was correcting a misinformed belief that he came to do away with everything that was written, but rather, he came to fulfill what they spoke about. It would appear strange if Jesus was teaching something foreign to the Jewish audience, but he explains that the Scripture spoke about him and he came to fulfill them, not destroy them.

    I think many misunderstand his words to say that the Law of Moses is still in place. On the contrary, Jesus here states that he came to fulfill its end. The New Covenant was inaugurated in his blood, and Hebrews 8 says that this covenant fulfill the purpose of the Old Covenant (with the Law of Moses). The Old Covenant was a temporal covenant relationship between God and Israel, and dealt with tenure in the land of Canaan and the regulation of the civil, moral, and ceremonial aspect of that nation. But, Abraham was promised that out of that nation his offspring (Christ) would come and bring salvation to the world. Israel was that immediate period until the Christ would come, then when he came he brought a better covenant, with better promises, in an official way. Before, people were saved by promise yet to be realized, but that Covenant did not arrive yet, because Christ did not arrive yet. So, the Law of Moses (all that pertained to Israel as a distinct nation) is done away with. The moral law remains in place, because the moral law is inherently good and natural. We are expected to obey this law regardless if you were a Jew or a Gentile. Every covenant God makes with men, the moral law is assumed to be obeyed. The Law of Moses would not exist without adding the moral law. So, it remains in continuance, because it is not bound just by the written letter, but is the universal truth since Adam.
     
  6. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to all the law, prophets and Psalms you don't seem to believe Jesus fulfilled them all.

    I don't see your point in saying "doing so does not give others the open door to be immoral and not be guilty of sin." I can't connect that to Mat 5:17-18. I didn't introduce it either.
     
  7. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    Where was this suggested? This is your personal projection and has nothing to do with Mat 5:17-18.
    Mat 5:17-18 doesn't imply this. Where do you get this idea? The OP didn't suggest it.
    How does this have anything to do with Mat 5:17-18?
    Did Jesus fulfill the 4th commandment? Rom 3:20 is off topic because the OP is about Jesus and what He did or didn't do. Jam 2:10-11 is also off topic for the same reason.

    I'll take up the rest of your long post in another post.
     
  8. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    As shown in the two posts provided above, JESUS came to fulfill all things written about him in the law, the prophets and the psalms. Your claim from past conversations is that God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) is abolished. As posted earlier, God's WORD does not teach lawlessness. JESUS fulfilling all things in the law the prophets and psalms does not mean we are now free to break God's LAW. If we break any one of God's 10 commandments in the NEW COVENANT we commit SIN. According to God's WORD all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    Everything posted to you is God's WORD and not my words and are on topic to MATTHEW 5:17.

    Hope this helps.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Can we agree that Christ perfectly fulfilled (complied with) the Law to "Not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 and to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

    1. Moral Law can be perfectly fulfilled (complied with) and doing so does not give others the open door to be immoral and not be guilty of sin.

    (Where Matthew 5 confines itself to the moral law -- perfectly complied with (fulfilled) in the case of Christ and the "examples" the text gives. "Obviously"

    2. Predictive Law in ceremonies can be fulfilled (fulfilling a promise, as predicted) - and does not obligate anyone else to fulfill that prediction.

    So then "perfectly fulfilled" has two contexts because there are two types of law. Obviously

    (Sorry to have to make this so obvious)

    I just gave you a post where I show (with an example) that I claim Christ fulfilled both moral law and predictive ceremonial law... then you post that wild assertion while apparently ignoring every detail in my post. As if you are not even reading short posts in your own thread that you respond to.

    What is up with that??

    So you struggle to understand that it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain" ..?? seriously?? That is where you get stuck? And you expect everyone here to go for that?

    the two points I make above are incredibly obvious to the reader. If you are content to respond with "yes but I can't understand the simple text you posted" -- I myself am glad to have that basic example illustrate "our difference".

    Though if you are so willing to admit that this is the point where you choose to be stuck - I would expect to see the same simple obvious irrefutable example I just gave - come up again since you apparently have no response to it.

    (Frankly I am more than a little satisfied to zero in on the very irrefutable point you cannot admit to - right off the bat)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
  10. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    This is off topic.
    This is off topic.
    This is accusatory. It does add in the topic, saying nothing other than changing the fulfil to satisfy. The word satisfy is part of the Greek definition of fulfil and both words are in the definition of the other in my dictionary. So I see no difference in the words.
    What do you mean by destroy? or stop?

    I've no problem with what is being referred to and agree with that.
    What application do you think applies? Maybe more to the point which of the definition(s) above can reasonably apply? Yes I think more than one of them would be reasonable. You're leaving things to wide open for any profitable discussion.
    What do you mean by "bring to an end?"That's in your definition.

    What is the result of Jesus fulfilling the law, Prophets and the Psalms? Rom 10:4 doesn't say Jesus brought an end to the law. It does say Jesus is the end of the law, though. I think there's a difference.

    I do think Jesus completed the law as your definition provides. What does complete mean? Your definition also uses the word finish. Wouldn't that mean complete? What happens when for example an order is filled? Would it be correct to say the order is completed? Would it be correct to say the requirement of the order is finished? Would it not also be correct to say the one who filled the order accomplished the requirements? What then becomes of the order?

    I make no claim Jesus came to destroy the law. I make no claim Jesus destroyed the law.
    Then you must be saying Jesus didn't fulfill the law as if Jesus is talking about something entirely different. I would need to see support for such an idea.

    Verse 17 is completely closed where as verse 18 is left open. If you say no because of verse 17, I need an explanation.

    I find it interesting Jesus says -

    LK 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    The bolded is also found in Mat 5. Why wouldn't Jesus be making a direct reference to those words? Jesus did say "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you..." The text does say "these."

    I also find it interesting Jesus closes the loop in Luke with "concerning Me." Do you think there could be a reason for not closing the loop in Mat 5?

    What does concerning Me include?
    I think my discussion shows your conclusion to be in error. It's very interesting to me you say "Not all thing have been fulfilled concerning JESUS in the law and the prophets and Psalms." Luke quotes Jesus saying something entirely different.

    More about this post in yet another post by me.
     
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother, thanks for your post but you did not address anything or any of the scriptures in the post you were quoting from accept provided your own words which disagrees with God's WORD. Did you want to try responding to the scriptures in the post that disagree with you? Sorry brother God's WORD does not teach lawlessness. As shown in posts # 3 and post # 4 above (linked) God's WORD disagrees with you. God's WORD does not teach God's LAW (10 commandments) is abolished. Please feel free to address the posts and all the scriptures in them that disagree with you. Our words do not make God's WORD dissappear. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and tradtions of men that break the commandments of God *ROMANS 3:4. JESUS says all those who KNOWINGLY follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

    God's Sheep hear his Voice.
     
  12. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    Sure we can and do.
    Essentially you're off topic here, again. The topic isn't us. Read the verse.
    Agreed
    OK
    By Jesus, yes and amen!
    What do you think I responded to? Your issue is we are to fulfil the law. That's isn't even close to Mat 5:17-18.
    No that's off topic. My apologies for entertaining your off topic comments.
    When you change form Jesus to us, you're off topic.
    No, I'm not stuck. Like I said when you go from Jesus to us, for this thread you're off topic. I'm not going to melt both into one about Mat 5:17-18.
    Since you're off topic you have no point. A discussion about us and the law is another subject.
     
  13. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for wading up my post and not showing what you're responding to. I'm not responding to your post a second time. Your post is so long I need to respond in sections.
    I'm working on your posts. If you can show how any of the Scripture references you posted apply to Mat 5:17-18, I'd be happy to respond to them. I'm not going off on your rabbit trail derailments.

    In case you don't understand the thread is about Mat 5:17-18 and that's all. The Scriptures I've included in my posts relate directly to Mat 5:17-18. You're free to show how they don't, if you can or will. Otherwise thanks for posting.
     
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Brother you have your formatting mixed up with my post. Anyhow will leave that for you to fix up. ALL the scriptures provided are to do with this topic and OP and are in relation to the MATHEW 5:17; the law and the prophets that JESUS did not come to ABOLISH.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Can we agree that Christ perfectly fulfilled (complied with) the Law to "Not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 and to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

    1. Moral Law can be perfectly fulfilled (complied with) and doing so does not give others the open door to be immoral and not be guilty of sin.

    (Where Matthew 5 confines itself to the moral law -- perfectly complied with (fulfilled) in the case of Christ and the "examples" the text gives. "Obviously"

    2. Predictive Law in ceremonies can be fulfilled (fulfilling a promise, as predicted) - and does not obligate anyone else to fulfill that prediction.

    So then "perfectly fulfilled" has two contexts.

    I just gave you a post where I show (with an example) that I claim Christ fulfilled both moral law and predictive ceremonial law... then you post that wild assertion while apparently ignoring every detail in my post. As if you are not even reading short posts in your own thread that you respond to.

    What is up with that??

    So you struggle to understand that it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain" ..?? seriously?? That is where you get stuck? And you expect everyone here to go for that?

    the two points I make above are incredibly obvious to the reader. If you are content to respond with "yes but I can't understand the simple text you posted" -- I myself am glad to have that basic example illustrate "our difference".

    Though if you are so willing to admit that this is the point where you choose to be stuck - I would expect to see the same simple obvious irrefutable example I just gave - come up again since you apparently have no response to it.

    (Frankly I am more than a little satisfied to zero in on the very irrefutable point you cannot admit to - right off the bat)

    Indeed .. "note the details" above. It is about the solution posted at the second post ... which you then claim not to understand.

    Which is fine. you can do that if you wish. As I stated I find that outcome satisfactory.


    My point is the obvious one - that it is still a sin to take God's name in vain - because complying with moral law "does not delete it" ... so the first person to "honor parents" does not then open the door for all other persons to "dishonor parents". That is not the way compliance with moral law works. Fulfilling its requirement never deleted it.

    The fact that one person in your town does not kill people - does not make it ok for everyone else to murder.

    Just stating the obvious. Not sure why you choose this as your sticking point.

    Turns out the meaning of "fulfill the law" has everything to do with it... obviously. We can all see that - was it supposed to be difficult to see??
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Can we agree that Christ perfectly fulfilled (complied with) the Law to "Not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 and to "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

    1. Moral Law can be perfectly fulfilled (complied with) and doing so does not give others the open door to be immoral and not be guilty of sin.

    (Where Matthew 5 confines itself to the moral law -- perfectly complied with (fulfilled) in the case of Christ and the "examples" the text gives. "Obviously"

    2. Predictive Law in ceremonies can be fulfilled (fulfilling a promise, as predicted) - and does not obligate anyone else to fulfill that prediction.

    So then "perfectly fulfilled" has two contexts because there are two types of law. Obviously

    (Sorry to have to make this so obvious)

    Interesting

    Apparently we both agree that Christ perfectly fulfilled both moral law and ceremonial law AND we both know that everyone here can see that complying with moral law does not delete it.
     
  17. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    Good discussion. Sorry about not getting to your post. The only thing that would make it better here on CF is at least Scripture references. Yes I know all the ones that back up what you said.

    Not to egg you on but I'd like to see you post about the words in my list. It's not for me. It's for you and other readers.
     
  18. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    The subject of the thread isn't our compliance with anything.
     
  19. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    Your entire post is off topic except your c&p re-post. In my response I deleted your off topic parts. I've already responded to the rest of your post.
     
  20. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    It was fixed immediately. I missed a quote tag. Don't you have something better to complain about?

    I didn't say anywhere Jesus abolished anything. I don't think Mat 5:17-18 does either.
     
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