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Biblewriter

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There were various relatively unknown essentially closet Jesuits in the earlier Church who parroted Riberan futurism. Lowth et al are examples. They are not numbered among the Reformers.

Had the earliest "futurist" scholars perchance survived until the time of the Reformation, would they have joined the ranks of fulfillment Reformers, or of futurist Jesuits?

The answer is self-evident.
To call William Lowth, a highly respected Episcopal clergyman, who wrote what became the most widely circulated series of commentaries in all of England, and remained so for many decades, either "relatively unknown" or "a closet Jesuit" is utter nonsense. You are using your opinion of what history ought to be to color your perception of what actually happened.
 
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Biblewriter

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Would that be the same sort if "futurism" as the very American doctrine that the Church awaits, not the Return of our Lord Christ to reign over the Earth, but the reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel? That The Church, founded by Emmanuel Himself, will be cast aside, to be replaced by the ritual slaughter of animals for blood sacrifices in a new Hebrew Temple, the Sacrifice of our Lord's Blood not having been sufficient to reconcile God and sinners once and for all time? That the center of all our hopes and prayers and aspirations was not, after all, the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty, the King of Kings, the Lord of All, the Creator, our Master, the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the great I Am, but some reboot of the nation of Israel?

I have stated in the past that Christ must be the center, the focus, our our eschatology, as of all our Faith, only to be told by futurists that the center of our Eschatology must be Israel. Somehow, somewhere, something has gone badly wrong with Futurism, to transform it from a fairly reasonable view of Last Things; still wrong, IMO, but inoffensive, into the blasphemous mess that it has become.
I do not know of even one person that teaches anything even remotely resembling your gross distortion of futurist doctrine.
 
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keras

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"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8
This scripture does not contradict itself. The Bible never does that and your faulty interpretation that it does, is just wrong and a lie.
It is a Hebrew parallelism, reiterating the same truth; the 1000 years earthly, as one day to God heaven.
 
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ItIsFinished!

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It saw the temple destroyed, sacrifice ended, Israel scattered, and the rise of the Church. Other than that...
The last week has not happened yet.
The Day of The Lord has not happened yet.
The Anti-christ has not been revealed yet.
The desolation of abomination has not happened yet.
None of the prophecies regarding the last week have happened yet.
 
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Jipsah

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Jesus would not have given John Revelation in 60 something AD (some claim 90 AD) which contains much prophecy regarding Daniel 's people and Jerusalem... way beyond a 7years theoretical no-gap continuation ending in around 37- 40 AD - if there was not a gap.
Seems strange that God would have told His prophet 70 weeks when it was in fact to be many times that. The old engineering adage is "It always takes longer and costs more", but dang!
 
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jgr

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And after the reformation, there were MANY futuristic Christian writers in the 1600s and early 1700s, including William Lowth, whose writings I quoted from extensively, and who published a series of commentaries on the Old Testament before Riberra was even born.

Francisco Ribera - 1537-1591
William Lowth - 1660-1732

There seems to be some inaccuracy in your claim.

To call William Lowth, a highly respected Episcopal clergyman, who wrote what became the most widely circulated series of commentaries in all of England, and remained so for many decades, either "relatively unknown" or "a closet Jesuit" is utter nonsense. You are using your opinion of what history ought to be to color your perception of what actually happened.

Did Lowth espouse Jesuitish futurism?

You've claimed he was "futuristic". Please provide his commentary on Daniel 9:24-27.

No one denies his orthodox contributions to the true Church.
 
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Meester-Chung

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I am well familiar with the book to which you linked, having quoted from it in my own book. If you yourself go back and carefully read the area around the passage you quoted, you will learn that Jerome took no stand on the meaning of the prophecy of the seventy weeks. Instead, he quoted what each of many earlier writers had said about this prophecy, and advised his readers to evaluate them for themselves, and decide which opinion was correct.

But if you scroll back up in the same document you linked to, you will see that in this very same document, Jerome said concerning Daniel 7:8 that "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, that is, the king of Egypt, the king of [North] Africa, and the king of Ethiopia, as we shall show more clearly in our later discussion. Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings also will bow their necks to the victor." This was the comment that I was referring to in my earlier post.

But Jerome was far from alone in teaching futurism. It was clearly taught by Papias. Eusebius complained concerning Papias, saying, “For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses. But it was due to him that so many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man; as for instance Irenæus and any one else that may have proclaimed similar views.” (The Church History, by Eusebius, book III, chapter XXXIX, section 13.)

Who were these "many" others that followed the lead of Papias? Eusebius specifically named Irenaeus. But other futurist writers I have personally studied (and quoted in my book) include, among others, Justyn Martyr, Hippolytus, Victorinus, Cyril of Jerusalem, the unknown author called Pseudo-Ephraem, and the unknown author of the so-called "epistle of Barnabas." Nor are these all the futuristic Christian writers of the early church.

And after the reformation, there were MANY futuristic Christian writers in the 1600s and early 1700s, including William Lowth, whose writings I quoted from extensively, and who published a series of commentaries on the Old Testament before Riberra was even born. And my colleague William Watson cataloged about two dozen such writers from the 1600s and 1700s that even taught a rapture before the Lord would come in power and glory to judge the world.

So this claim that Futurism originated with Fransisco Riberra has been thoroughly debunked by several modern writers, including my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," which is currently scheduled for release by Dispensational Publishing House on the first of November.


provide evidence that William and other reformers where futurists that claim there is a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week?
 
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Jipsah

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This scripture does not contradict itself.
No one said it did, least of all me.
your faulty interpretation that it does, is just wrong and a lie.
Harsh words, Doug, but whether you like it or not, and whether it supports your weakly-formed doctrine or not, it says what it says, to wit:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You want it to say that 1000 Solar Years equals one day by God's reckoning. And so it does. But it also says 1 Solar Day equals 1000 years in God's reckoning, which you very much do not want it to say.

Sorry mate, you don't get to pick one just to fit your doctrine. Then again, without that technique, used as often as needed, there'd be no such thing as Dispensational Futurism, would there?

It is a Hebrew parallelism, reiterating the same truth; the 1000 years earthly, as one day to God heaven.
Half a verse is good enough for you, as long as you're very careful to get the right half. <Laugh>

Bother Buford said it this way: "Every Christian sect or denomination has doctrines so dearly held that the Bible cannot be allowed to damage them."
 
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ItIsFinished!

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Where is temple sacrifice currently happening?
Prophecy = history told in advanced.
It isn't happening currently, but will .
The real question should be , why is God waiting to fulfill the last week?

Because He is long suffering and very merciful.
Friend , the last week of the 70 has not happened yet.
 
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Meester-Chung

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The temple of God described in Thessalonians is the church or body of Christ NOT a 3rd physical temple


1 Cor 6:19: Do you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which you have of God, and you are not your own?

(1 Cor 3:16) Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that God’s spirit dwells in you?

If any man destroys the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are’ (1 Cor 3:17).
 
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ItIsFinished!

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The temple of God described in Thessalonians is the church or body of Christ NOT a 3rd physical temple


1 Cor 6:19: Do you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which you have of God, and you are not your own?

(1 Cor 3:16) Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that God’s spirit dwells in you?

If any man destroys the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are’ (1 Cor 3:17).

That being said , does not detract from the fact a Third Temple will be built.
And of course it will not be a physical temple.
The abomination of desolation occurs in the third temple .
One of many reasons the last week of the 70 has not occurred yet.
 
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Jipsah

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Prophecy = history told in advanced.
It isn't happening currently, but will ..
That's your doctrine talking, not scripture. Th prophet said sacrifice and oblation would cease. They did. Futurists act as though they hadn't noticed. "Oh, that hasn't happened yet." Well yes, in fact it has.
 
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Meester-Chung

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[That being said, does not detract from the fact a Third Temple will be built.]

Paul's epistle said many times the Temple of God are believers in Christ. nowhere does it say a 3rd temple will be rebuilt


[And of course it will not be a physical temple. ]
you are contradicting yourself here

[The abomination of desolation occurs in the third temple .]

the abomination of desolation took place in AD 70 Luke 21:20

20:“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.



[One of many reasons the last week of the 70 has not occurred yet.]


Again there is no gap Daniel's 70 weeks are 70 consecutive weeks
 
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Jipsah

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I do not know of even one person that teaches anything even remotely resembling your gross distortion of futurist doctrine.
You must be new here, then. And if I'm not to badly mistaken, I 'seem to recall that you yourself said that the prophecies of Ezekiel require a resumption of animal sacrifice in the New Temple, i.e., a return to Temple Judaism. No?
 
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Biblewriter

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Francisco Ribera - 1537-1591
William Lowth - 1660-1732

There seems to be some inaccuracy in your claim.



Did Lowth espouse Jesuitish futurism?

You've claimed he was "futuristic". Please provide his commentary on Daniel 9:24-27.

No one denies his orthodox contributions to the true Church.
Yes. I was thinking of Manuel Lacunza. Sorry.

I do not have his commentary on Daniel. But I have already posted MANY futuristic comments by William Lowth in the (Dispensationalists only) thread "The Futurism of William Lowth."
 
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Biblewriter

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You must be new here, then. And if I'm not to badly mistaken, I 'seem to recall that you yourself said that the prophecies of Ezekiel require a resumption of animal sacrifice in the New Temple, i.e., a return to Temple Judaism. No?
The worship described in Ezekiel is significantly different from that described in the law of Moses. So no - it is not a return to temple Judaism.
 
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jgr

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Yes. I was thinking of Manuel Lacunza. Sorry.

I do not have his commentary on Daniel. But I have already posted MANY futuristic comments by William Lowth in the (Dispensationalists only) thread "The Futurism of William Lowth."

I do not see the thread, so please post a link.
 
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Biblewriter

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provide evidence that William and other reformers where futurists that claim there is a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week?
I do not have William Lowth's commentary on Daniel. But I have already posted MANY plainly futuristic comments from his other work in the (Dispensationalists only) thread "The Futurism of William Lowth."

But A future fulfillment was very clearly taught in ancient times by Hippolytus in his Commentary on Daniel." This is the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture. Hippolytus said:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hippolytus, book 4, 35.3)

Hippolytus returned to this subject some pages later, writing:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hippolytus, book 4, 50.2)

THis was also taught, although not quite as clearly, by Irenaeus, in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day. This is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies." Irenaeus said:

“The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: ‘I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,’ calling Antichrist ‘the other,’ because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one ‘who feared not God, neither regarded man,’ to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

“Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: ‘But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 2)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

In this series of statements, we notice that in the first of them Irenaeus clearly says that the Antichrist “shall remove his kingdom into” [“the earthly Jerusalem”] “and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” In the second he insists that “the temple which is at Jerusalem” is the place “in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ.” And then he quotes Daniel 9:27, “‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away.’” So in the last of these statements he very clearly refers to Daniel’s seventieth week as the week in which the Antichrist will come.

Thus we see in these statements of Irenaeus each of the following concepts:

1. That in the future there will again be a temple in Jerusalem.
2. That this future temple will be “the temple of God.”
3. That this future Jewish temple is where the Antichrist will sit as God.
4. And that Daniel’s seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Each of these concepts is unquestionably an element of Dispensationalism, and is incompatible with Covenant Theology.

As a side note, we should note that the concept of calculating these weeks in accordance with Jewish years, rather than solar years, was also introduced at this time. Although Julius Africanus concluded that the seventy weeks were fulfilled, he clearly taught that they should be calculated “according to the numeration of the Jews,” saying:

“It is by calculating from Artaxerxes, therefore, up to the time of Christ that the seventy weeks are made up, according to the numeration of the Jews. For from Nehemiah, who was despatched by Artaxerxes to build Jerusalem in the 115th year of the Persian empire, and the 4th year of the 83d Olympiad, and the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes himself, up to ibis date, which was the second year of the 202d Olympiad, and the 16th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, there are reckoned 475 years, which make 490 according to the Hebrew numeration, as they measure the years by the course of the moon; so that, as is easy to show, their year consists of 354 days, while the solar year has 365¼ days. For the latter exceeds the period of twelve months, according to the moon’s course, by 11¼ days. Hence the Greeks and the Jews insert three intercalary months every 8 years. For 8 times 11¼ days makes up 3 months. Therefore 475 years make 59 periods of 8 years each, and 3 months besides. But since thus there are 3 intercalary months every 8 years, we get thus 15 years minus a few days; and these being added to the 475 years, make up in all the 70 weeks.” (Fragment 16 of “The Extant Fragments of the Five Books of the Chronography of Julius Africanus,” by Julius Africanus.)
 
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