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Featured Discussion moved from "End Times Fiction" thread

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Dave L, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Reckon St. Jerome would have agreed with the abominable notion that the Church would be replaced by New, Improved, Even More Effective, Temple Judaism, and the Letter to the Hebrews chucked into the stove?
     
  2. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Would that be the same sort if "futurism" as the very American doctrine that the Church awaits, not the Return of our Lord Christ to reign over the Earth, but the reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel? That The Church, founded by Emmanuel Himself, will be cast aside, to be replaced by the ritual slaughter of animals for blood sacrifices in a new Hebrew Temple, the Sacrifice of our Lord's Blood not having been sufficient to reconcile God and sinners once and for all time? That the center of all our hopes and prayers and aspirations was not, after all, the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty, the King of Kings, the Lord of All, the Creator, our Master, the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the great I Am, but some reboot of the nation of Israel?

    I have stated in the past that Christ must be the center, the focus, our our eschatology, as of all our Faith, only to be told by futurists that the center of our Eschatology must be Israel. Somehow, somewhere, something has gone badly wrong with Futurism, to transform it from a fairly reasonable view of Last Things; still wrong, IMO, but inoffensive, into the blasphemous mess that it has become.
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No, they are not wrong. Their country is correctly named Israel. The nation of Judah was less than half the size of modern Israel. Modern Israel covers the territory of both the northern and southern kingdoms.

    This is the map of the two split kingdoms...

    [​IMG]

    Here is a map of the modern state of Israel. Same territory as the two kingdoms.


    [​IMG]
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Failed is an inappropriate word. "Not yet" is the right phrase.
     
  5. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Member

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    Dear Lord, please don’t turn the sun into a grapefruit.
     
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  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus fulfilled the 70th contiguous week as planned. Antichrist did not. So we know the prophecy is about Jesus. You do not have direct scripture for a supposed gap. So this rules a gap out too.
     
  7. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hello Jipsah.
    I have been enjoying your spirit led posts.

    If their kingdom is to be restored, I would assume that would mean they are without a kingdom?

    Acts 1:
    6 Then they gathered around Him and asked Him, “Lord! are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?
    7 Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.


    Judea, Jerusalem, the Temple/Sanctuary and Priesthood belonged to the Southern Nation/Kingdom of Judah, which included the priestly tribe of Levi [listed 8th in Revelation], and Benjamin[Paul's tribe....listed 12th in Revelation, and also last born Genesis 35:18

    I believe this is what Jesus was referring to when the Kingdom would be taken away from the Kingdom of Judah and be given it back to the Kingdom of Israel [Israel was divorced in the OT for harlotry-Jeremiah 3:8]

    Matthew 21:43

    Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

    I have a discussion thread on this for any interested [only 1 response so far]

    Acts 1:6 restore kingdom to Israel/10 kings One Mind Reve 17?

    The Northern Kingdom of Israel consisted of 10 tribes [1 Kings 11:31-35]
    Anyway, I have a rather "unique" view that these 10 Kings may be representing the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

    Revelation 17:12
    And the ten horns which you perceived are ten Kings, who any a Kingdom not as yet received,
    but authority as Kings one hour they are obtaining with the beast,


    How else could this prophecy be fufilled?


    Ezekiel 37:22
    “and I will make them one Nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel;
    and one King shall be king over them all;
    they shall no longer be two Nations,
    nor shall they ever be divided into two Kingdoms again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  8. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The Jews know very well that they represent only 2 of the twelve tribes of Israel.
    There is a famous discussion, in the Middle ages; where Rabbi Akiva says that Judah still awaits the rejoining of their kinsmen, the ten Northern tribes. Ezekiel 11:14-21 And the blessings of God to all of Israel, as per Ezekiel 37, have not yet happened.
    Modern Israel does not cover all the holy Land as given to Abraham. Genesis 15:18 But the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, WILL.
     
  9. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Would make for an interesting thread.
    Oh wait, there is one.
    Anyone want to revive this thread?

    Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?


    DavidPT said:
    "If one can come up with a precise day and time when the 70 weeks initially started, and assuming no gaps until completion, how hard should it be to come up with the precise day and time it allegedly finished? Shouldn't be hard at all. I would like to know when the 70 weeks allegedly finished, so I can then see if anything in history was special about that day in particular.

    And since I believe there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week, I'm not the one that needs to provide a precise day and time the 70 weeks allegedly finished. The ones claiming no gap need to provide this since it seems odd they can know precisely when the 70 weeks began, but can't know precisely when they end, while at the same time claiming they have already ended."

    Is there a "gap" in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9"
    1. No
      16 vote(s)
      48.5%
    2. Yes
      16 vote(s)
      48.5%
    3. * [yours truly ehehe]
      I don't know
      1 vote(s)
      3.0%
    4. Other
      0 vote(s)
      0.0%
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  10. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    What we who believe in the future 70th week of Daniel, do have, is a nearly 2000 year hiatus since Jesus was Crucified until now.
    Exactly as prophesied by Hosea 6:2 and Jesus in Luke 13:32. Each 'day' equaling 1000 years, as two witnesses attest; Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8

    I view the denial of the fulfillment of this last 7 years before Jesus Returns, as avoidance of what is plainly prophesied to happen. This attitude is wrong and foolish, as it leaves one 'in the dark' about what must happen soon.
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No direct quotes from scripture = no gap.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Evidently, not for the Preterists :)
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    4 Scriptures. Please tell us your interpretation of them.
    Also the fact, there has been nearly 2000 years pass since the end of the 69 week, is undeniable proof of a 2 'day' gap to God, but 2000 years to us.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Middle ages? Rabbi Akiva died in 135 AD. We are talking current Israel anyway, 1948 and later.

    The Jews I have discussed with online say that most of them don't know what tribe they each are affiliated with. That they expect the messiah to inform them.

    Ezekiel 37 is not completed yet, obviously. But that doesn't mean Israel was not born in a single day, just like Isaiah 66:7-8 indicates.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There were various relatively unknown essentially closet Jesuits in the earlier Church who parroted Riberan futurism. Lowth et al are examples. They are not numbered among the Reformers.

    Had the earliest "futurist" scholars perchance survived until the time of the Reformation, would they have joined the ranks of fulfillment Reformers, or of futurist Jesuits?

    The answer is self-evident.
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people Israel, and Jerusalem. Not on Jesus.

    The Antichrist has not come to power yet to fulfill anything.

    Jesus would not have given John Revelation in 60 something AD (some claim 90 AD) which contains much prophecy regarding Daniel 's people and Jerusalem... way beyond a 7years theoretical no-gap continuation ending in around 37- 40 AD - if there was not a gap.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No direct quote is necessary when direct information is given in the bible. Revelation was given long after some theoretical ending of the 70 weeks. Revelation contains direct information that the 70 weeks are not yet fulfilled. Which that is direct information that there is a gap between the messiah being cutoff - and the prince who shall come to confirm the covenant for 7 years, which Revelation is structured on that 7 years forthcoming.

    When John saw what was in the book, he saw the seven years, in segments.
    Each segment covered events to take place in either the full seven years or the second half of the seven years.

    Chapter 6 the entire 7 years
    Chapter 7 second half of the seven years
    Chapter 8, 9 the trumpets, second half of the seven years
    Chapter 10 the little book, the mystery of God no further delay, the second half
    Chapter 11 the entire 7 years
    Chapter 12 the entire 7 years, relevant to Israel
    Chapter 13 the second half , relevant to the evil of the beast
    Chapter 14 the second half, reward of the 144,000 and judgment on the wicked
    Chapter 15 the second half, the vials
    Chapter 16 the second half, the vials, conclusion of the great tribulation
    Chapter 17 the second half, judgment
    Chapter 18 the second half, judgment
    Chapter 19 the second half, Jesus's Return
     
  18. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    God can do it if He is so inclined.

    Which kind of propels me back to the old reliable "God Can't..." thing that some folks like to fall back on, which somehow always ends up meaning "God can't act in a way that would challenge the doctrines I hold most dear.". <Laugh>
     
  19. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Or that the two solar days that elapsed after the end of the 69th week equated to 2000 years in God's reckoning. Gotta read the whole verse, ya see.

    "
    But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    A person who calls himself a Jew is of the tribe of Judah or Benjamin. They are also of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9

    Yes Jesus will do that; He will stand on Mt Zion, Revelation 14:1, and divide the vast multitude of Christians that John sees in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9-14, into 12 tribal divisions.
    They will be assigned the Land as per Ezekiel 47:13-23 & 48:1-35
     
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