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Featured Discussion - Earth calamities and Rumors of war

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Bible2+, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    While Jesus Christ was originally speaking with His apostles in Matthew 24, in His mind all Christians of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). So the "ye" in Matthew 24 does not require that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the lifetime of the apostles. The "ye" will see "all these things" (Matthew 24:33-34), including Jesus' never-fulfilled Second Coming (Matthew 24:30-34). The "ye" must watch (stay awake, spiritually) for the Second Coming (Matthew 24:42,44).

    The same is true regarding Revelation chapters 6 to 18, which are still future.

    But they are not "late", just as the (still future) Second Coming in Revelation 19 is not "late".

    In Revelation 1:1,3, as in Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as: "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus Christ's (still future) Second Coming. That is, shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not humans (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    Also, from the viewpoint of humans, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after the apostle John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the seven, literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all of the (to us) still-future events of the Tribulation and subsequent Second Coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not humans, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

    Other books in the Bible contain prophecies of events which would not occur for 3,000 to 4,000 years. For example, Ezekiel prophesied of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Revelation 20:8-9) some 3,600 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Ezekiel gave that prophecy some 600 years before Jesus Christ's first coming, but it will not be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (still future) Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:10). Also, God prophesied Jesus' spiritual defeat of Satan at the Crucifixion (Genesis 3:15, Hebrews 2:14) some 4,000 years before its occurrence. And Isaiah prophesied God creating a New Heaven and a New Earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' first coming, but it will not be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after His (still future) Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).

    Note that the destruction of the second Jewish temple in 70 AD did not fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the second temple's Wailing Wall still stand today one on top of the other.
     
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Futurismically:

    Jesus never was speaking with His apostles in Matthew 24, for nothing in His predictions was germane to them. The predictions all lie in a future 2,000 years of age and counting from when Jesus spoke.

    In His mind, all Christians of all times are not one, for His disciples were excluded from the “one” by the exclusive futurity of His predictions. Nor have any Christians since He spoke ever been part of the “one”, for no Christians past or present, dead or alive, have ever observed or experienced His predictions. Those predictions all lie in a future 2,000 years of age and counting from when He spoke.

    The “ye” includes no one since Christ spoke, for no Christians past or present, dead or alive, have ever observed or experienced His predictions. Those predictions all lie in a future 2,000 years of age and counting from when He spoke.

    “Shortly”, “at hand”, et al do not appear in Matthew 24. In every instance where the Greek “tachos” appears outside of Revelation, it refers to an event which occurred in the immediate future, consistent with Strong's definitions of “quickness, speed; hastily, immediately”. The same is true of its occurrences in Revelation 1.1 and 22:6. “Tachos” does not appear in Revelation 22:20 or anywhere else in Revelation, nor does it ever appear anywhere in Scripture in association with a duration of thousands of years.

    You missed my qualification “the part of the wall that He was speaking to”, which was not the wailing wall, and which was part of the 99% leveled in 70 AD. But it was in reality 100%, for the most recent archaeological discoveries have also confirmed the destruction of the wailing wall.
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that doesn't matter, just as Genesis is germane to us as individuals even though we weren't there to experience it (2 Timothy 3:16).

    No, for the "one" (Ephesians 4:4) spans all time (Ephesians 3:21).

    But in Revelation it doesn't, because Revelation chapters 6 to 22 have never been fulfilled, just as Matthew 24 has never been fulfilled. Instead, tachos in Revelation means shortly from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    As an example of how Revelation chapters 6 to 22 have never been fulfilled, the last three of the four horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible, future war, which will begin the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing one-fourth of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

    Note that it still stands.
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Futurismically:

    It does matter.

    Everyone experiences Genesis as a result of descent from Adam and Eve. The experiences are germane to everyone.

    No one ever has ever experienced Christ's predictions. They are germane to no one.

    The “one” does not span all time.

    No one over the span of time since Christ spoke has ever experienced Christ's predictions.

    Nowhere does Scripture say that the meaning of “tachos” changes in Revelation.

    The photograph clearly shows that the wall was thrown down. What stands today was rebuilt at a later time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    How did you experience Genesis 50, for example?

    Note that every word of the Bible is germane to every Christian (Matthew 4:4).

    The Church will experience Christ's predictions in Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 22 in the future.

    For example, Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of people in the Church, whether Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, for some Christians' love for Him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that He is letting them and their little ones suffer in the Tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

    It remains the same, but it is from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 have never been fulfilled.

    For example, the future death of one-fourth of the world (Revelation 6:8) will be a one-time event, just as the subsequent death of one-third of the world (Revelation 9:18) will be a one-time event. Together, this will mean the death of one-half of the world, the death of some four billion people, and during only the first half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    Not the Wailing Wall.
     
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Futurismically:

    How have you not experienced the progenitive results of Genesis 2:7,22?

    Describe your most recently deceased Christian relative's or friend's direct germane personal experience of the futurized words of Christ in Matthew 24.

    No Christian has ever experienced the predictions of Christ in Matthew 24 since He delivered them, despite your claim that the “one” spans all time.

    Every author who used the word “tachos” was inspired to do so from the same viewpoint by the same Holy Spirit, John included. (Revelation 1:1).

    Futurism's fallacies will never be fulfilled.

    The Wailing Wall is the Western Wall, which the photograph identifies as thrown down.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that experiencing the results of something is not the same as experiencing that thing in itself.

    For example, many people have experienced the results of World War II without experiencing the war in itself.

    Note that we do not have to experience something in order for it to be germane to us.

    For example, we did not have to experience Genesis 50 in order for it to be germane to us today.

    For every scripture is germane to every Christian of every time (2 Timothy 3:16).

    Because the one Church spans all time (Ephesians 3:21), it will experience Matthew 24 in the future (Matthew 24:9-13).

    Note that nothing requires that. For the "tachos" viewpoint in Revelation is from the viewpoint of God rather than men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 have no historical fulfillment.

    For example, the avenging of the blood of the Christian martyrs of Revelation 6:10 will not occur until the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), which will not occur until after the reign of the future Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast" (Revelation 13:4-18). The third vial is even specifically referred to as an avenging of the blood of the Christian martyrs (Revelation 16:4-7).

    For the still-future Christian martyrs referred to in Revelation 6:11b will not be killed by God in His wrath. Instead, it will be Satan and evil men who will kill them in their wrath (Matthew 24:9, Revelation 12:12b, Revelation 20:4b).

    Not the Western Wall.
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Futurismically:

    "Germane" means "applicable".
    Prophetic fulfillment was and is applicable to those whom it identifies did or will experience that fulfillment.
    Futurism alleges that Christ's prophecy of Matthew 24 has never been fulfilled, and has thus never been applicable to anyone, in the 2,000 years and counting since He delivered it.
    Futurism alleges that Christ's prophecy of Matthew 24 will only be fulfilled in the future.
    Futurism's fallacies will never be fulfilled.

    The Holy Spirit required it.
    “Tachos” was His word choice.
    There is no connotation of “viewpoint” in the definition of “tachos”.
    If the Holy Spirit had wanted to incorporate the connotation of “viewpoint”, He would have chosen an associated word, e.g. “tachu”.
    John in Revelation 1:1 does not refer to 2 Peter 3:8-9. Nor does Peter ever use the word "tachos".
    The Holy Spirit had, and has, no use for futurism's fallacies.

    The Western Wall, Wailing Wall, or Kotel,[1] known in Islam as the Buraq Wall,[2] is an ancient limestone wall in the Old City of Jerusalem.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that every scripture is applicable, in the sense of profitable, to every Christian of every time (2 Timothy 3:16).

    And even to those who did not. For example, the fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 53 by Jesus Christ in the first century AD is applicable to every Christian of every time (Romans 3:25-26).

    No, Christian Futurism simply states the fact that Christ's prophecies in Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled. But as God's Word they are still applicable to every Christian of every time (Matthew 4:4).

    The same goes for Christ's prophecies in Revelation chapters 6 to 22, which also have never been fulfilled.

    For example, in Revelation 12:1, the woman, who represents the Church, has the moon under her feet, which represents Satan being spiritually under the feet of the Church (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:11). So the moon appearing blood-red at one point during the future Tribulation (Revelation 6:12) could represent Satan's murderous blood-rage (Revelation 12:17, John 8:44). Not long after the moon appears blood-red at the time of Revelation 6:12, four fallen angels of Satan will kill one-third of mankind with an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings (Revelation 9:14-19). After that, the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign will occur (Revelation 13:5-18), when he will behead Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). So the future Tribulation is going to be a very bloody time, and almost all of it could be the work of Satan, and those whom he will inspire and empower (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4).

    But note that God's viewpoint regarding “tachos”, which simply means "soon", is still far different than man's (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    And it is still standing, meaning that Matthew 24:2 has not been fulfilled yet.
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not 2 Peter 1:20.

    Yes, as I said, "Prophetic fulfillment was and is applicable to those whom it identifies did or will experience that fulfillment." Isaiah 53 identifies and is fulfilled in both Christ and every Christian.

    Futurism promulgates Matthew 24 fallacy never before seen, heard, or recorded in historical true Church history.

    The Holy Spirit would have chosen the word "tachu" rather than "tachos".

    What is today's Western Wailing Wall is the remains of the Roman Fort Antonia, not the original Jerusalem temple complex; the latter of which Jesus prophesied, and Josephus historically confirmed, was completely destroyed in 70 AD.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that 2 Timothy 3:16 refers to all scripture, which would include 2 Peter 1:20.

    2 Peter 1:19-21 means that in our taking heed to Biblical prophecy in anticipation of Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, our interpretation of Biblical prophecy must be in accord with God's Holy Spirit. For Biblical prophecy was not written by men based on their own human understanding or desire, but, like the entire Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

    Isaiah 53 was fulfilled by Christ in the first century AD. But we didn't have to be there to experience its fulfillment in order for it to be applicable to us.

    Similarly, Matthew 24 will be fulfilled in our future. But we won't have to be there to experience it in order for it to be applicable, in the sense of profitable, to us, as to all other Christians of all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

    Note that nothing in history shows the fulfillment of Matthew 24, just as nothing in history shows the fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 22.

    For example, the 144,000 will be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will be part of the Church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the Church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could already be part of the Church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the Tribulation along with the rest of the Church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Also, the 144,000, who are of the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the Church. For all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

    The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19), because the Israel that they are from is not genetic Israel, with its twelve genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all elect people (Romans 9:11-13), whether Jews or Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    -

    While at the future time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the Church will still be spiritually protected during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the Tribulation's first stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die, and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It is near the end of this first stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the Tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first six trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the Tribulation's second stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of God's Holy Spirit which they and all others in the Church of all times receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this second stage (Revelation 9:4).

    After this second stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the Tribulation's third stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

    The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the future Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the Church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the Church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected by God (Revelation 12:6,14-16); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the Church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    After the future Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These seven vials (Revelation 16) will be the Tribulation's fourth and final stage. Because the Church is not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the Church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the Church will survive the entire future Tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' Second Coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

    Note that they both (G5034, G5035) can be used in relation to a short period of time. And to God, even 2,000 years is short (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    No, the Fort was off the northwestern corner of the temple complex (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

    No, the Wailing Wall of the temple complex still stands.
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2 Peter 1:20 refers to prophecy whose interpretation is “idios” - peculiar to the individual; thus uninspired and unprofitable. This is characteristic of futurism, whose modernist claim of the unfulfillment of the entirety of Matthew 24 is peculiar to a diminutive sect within it, with no precedent in the orthodoxy of either the historical or contemporary true Church.

    It was and is fulfilled in Christ, and was and is fulfilled in those who are in Christ in verse 11.

    There is overwhelming scriptural and historical evidence of the fulfillment of the majority of Matthew 24, and the recognition by an overwhelming majority of those within both the historical and contemporary true Church of at least partial fulfillment.

    Futurist fantasy private interpretation by imagination.

    Outside of Revelation where “tachos” refers to an actual event, that event occurred in the relatively near future. There is no rationale for arbitrarily redefining the meaning of “tachos” as used within Revelation.

    Unsubstantiated without a link or other access to the entire article.

    Not according to Jesus and Josephus.

    Was the wall a wall of the temple or one of the temple buildings, or was it only a retaining wall?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that nothing in history shows the fulfillment of Matthew 24.

    Similarly, nothing in history shows the fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 22.

    For example, Revelation 8:8a could refer to the future collapse into the ocean of a huge, erupting volcano, possibly one of the Canary Islands. Revelation 8:8b could refer to one-third of the North Atlantic turning blood-red due to a gigantic amount of blood-red mud pouring forth from the volcano into the sea for an extended period of time. Revelation 8:9a could refer to one-third of the sea creatures in the North Atlantic dying because of there being so much mud in the water. And Revelation 8:9b could refer to one-third of the North Atlantic's ships being destroyed in port by a massive tsunami caused by the volcano's collapse into the ocean. This tsunami could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

    That's right, with regard to the justification part of Isaiah 53:11.

    But note that the rest of the verse happened in the first century AD, and so it was not something which we experienced. And yet what it says is applicable to us, in the sense of profitable to us, just as every scripture is (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), regardless of whether we experience it or not.

    Regarding the latter, why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:

    1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

    2. The Second Coming and rapture cannot occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation, and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

    3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

    Partial preterism might answer: "It is obvious that the Second Coming has not happened yet". And that is right. But full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims that the Second Coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it is only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim that all of the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church, and rapture have not occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have not occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?

    Note that the meaning is not redefined, it's simply applied to God's point of view (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    Note that neither of them contradicts what we can still see today with our own eyes.

    It was a retaining wall of the temple complex. It is for this reason that it is the holiest place of worship in the world left to the Jews.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The choice:

    1. An enormous amount of "nothing" verified as fulfilled in both history and Scripture. Affirmed by recognized historical defenders of the true faith for over eighteen centuries.
    2. Spurned, denied, and rejected as "nothing" by modernist hyperfuturism. Replaced by speculation, presumption, conjecture, imagination, fantasy, and fallacy.

    Easy decision.

    Note the use of links to conserve server space.

    Revelation 8:8 refers to a mountain cast, not collapsing, into the sea. Someone has to do the casting.
    Revelation 8:8 refers to "the sea" meaning globally, not "the North Atlantic".
    Revelation 8:8 declares that a third part of the sea became literal blood. Mud is not blood.
    Revelation 8:9 refers to "the sea" meaning globally, not "the North Atlantic". Nor has "mud in the water" ever precipitated marine life decimation. The country of Iceland is a result of underwater volcanic eruptions which have generated far more "mud in the water" than any Canary Islands event ever could. Yet the waters off Iceland have always teemed with marine life, and the fishery has always been a major contributor to the country's economy.

    But then, no genuine futurist ever permits Scripture to interfere with fantasy.

    The man of sin (never labeled "the Antichrist", which does not exist in Scripture) appeared and sat in the "naos" spiritual temple of the Church long ago.

    It is redefined, for 2 Peter 3:8 is not applicable to "tachos" events outside of Revelation. There is no rationale for redefining them inside Revelation.

    Matthew 24
    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Mark 13
    2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Never in Scripture, architecture, construction, or rational discourse, is a standalone retaining wall described as a "building".

    The wall was not included in Jesus' declaration, regardless of whether it is the original structure.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that there has never been any verification from history or scripture of the fulfillment of Matthew 24, which describes the same, still-future Tribulation and Second Coming of Jesus Christ as Luke 21.

    For example, Luke 21:24 was not fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD. For Luke 21:24 refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the future Antichrist's literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

    That is, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which non-Christian Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the second half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.

    Similarly, when the apostle Paul says: "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become Christians, which will not happen until near the end of the future Tribulation, right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Romans 11:26).

    Note that preterism employs vast amounts of speculation, presumption, conjecture, imagination, fantasy, and fallacy, in order to try (vainly) to fit all of the details of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 into the past.

    Note that Satan could cast a mountain into the sea by causing a volcano to collapse into the sea.

    Note that "the sea" in the Bible does not always have to be global (e.g. Matthew 8:24).

    Note that Revelation 8:8 can mean that it came to appear like blood, which red mud can.

    Or do you believe that the moon will become literal blood in Revelation 6:12?

    Revelation 8:9 is still future, and will be on an unprecedented scale.

    Note that the idea of the individual-man Antichrist does not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the Antichrist" for it to be true and supported by the Bible; just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity does not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the Trinity" for it to be true and supported by the Bible (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

    Also, in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, like in Revelation 11:1-2, the original Greek word (naos: G3485) translated as "temple" is the same word used for an actual, physical temple in Matthew 23:16, Matthew 23:17, Matthew 23:21, Matthew 23:35, Matthew 27:5, Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 1:9, Luke 1:21, Luke 1:22, Luke 23:45, and John 2:20.

    And no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the "beast") in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which says that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he is not the Antichrist.

    But the principle of 2 Peter 3:8-9 applies to Revelation chapters 6 to 22, which have not been fulfilled yet. For 2 Peter 3:8-9 shows that even the passing of 2,000 years can be a short time to God.

    Indeed. For Biblical events occurred outside of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 in a short time to men.

    So the "short time" definition does not change. We just have to realize that a short time to God does not have to be short to us (2 Peter 3:8-9).

    Note that in Matthew 24:1-2 the original Greek word (oikodome: G3619) translated as "buildings" includes "structures" in general (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include the second Jewish temple-complex's Wailing Wall, and not just structures which English speakers would consider to be "buildings".

    Also, in Matthew 24:2 the "here" can include not just the entire second temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,171
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    Only if you deny the enormous repository of existing evidence.

    I thought we were discussing Matthew 24.
    Did Christ, the Holy Spirit, the New Testament writers, the historical defenders of the faith, and the secular historians; all employ vast amounts of speculation, presumption, conjecture, imagination, fantasy, and fallacy; there?

    Dictionary definition of "cast":
    throw (something) forcefully in a specified direction.
    synonyms:
    throw, toss, fling, pitch, hurl, lob;

    - all of which necessitate the object being first lifted clear of the ground or its support before being thrown
    - notice that “collapse” is not a synonym

    Luke 8 parallel passage:
    22 Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his disciples: and he said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth.

    The “sea” in Matthew is of course the “sea of Galilee”, which Luke confirms is a lake.

    What is the name of the lake which lies in the North Atlantic ocean off the shore of one of the Canary islands?

    The word “like” does not appear in Revelation 8:8.

    I do not believe that the moon will literally become blood in either Revelation 6:12 or 8:8. But I'm not the one claiming that Revelation 6 through 18 will be literally fulfilled.

    Whatever it was or will be, was not nor will be anything remotely resembling your fantasy scenario.

    The word “trinity” does not appear in Scripture, is exclusively anthropogenic in definition and usage, and as such is potentially subject to variations in understanding and application. By contrast, “antichrist” does appear in Scripture, is comprehensively defined and described exclusively in John's epistles, and does not suffer from misunderstanding or misapplication when guided by John's declarations.

    Comparing “trinity” to “antichrist” is the classic example of comparing apples to oranges.

    Not in Paul's epistles. He is consistent in applying “naos” exclusively to the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively, the Church.

    By no stretch of fantasy can a retaining wall which was detached, separate, and distinct from any temple building, be considered a “building of the temple” or “structure of the temple” or “anything of the temple”. The Romans recognized its insignificance, and deliberately ignored it. If they had considered it to be in any way associated with the temple, they would certainly have destroyed it. This is confirmed by Jewish historians:

    “When the Romans razed the Temple, they left one outer wall standing. They probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them since it was not part of the Temple itself, just a retaining wall surrounding the Temple Mount.”

    The temple and its buildings (which did not include the separate retaining wall), which Jesus prophesied would be destroyed, were destroyed.

    His prophecy was fulfilled to the letter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that there is no evidence which shows the fulfillment of Matthew 24, just as there is no evidence which shows the fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 22.

    For example, the weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, and the subsequent army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", or "demons", when in fact they could both be animal species which evolved or were miraculously created (at two different times) on the earth millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the Bottomless Pit of the earth (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the Bottomless Pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the Bottomless Pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-10). They will not kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6). They will hurt people who do not have a seal of God on their forehead (Revelation 9:4, cf. Revelation 7:3-4).

    The world could see these locust-like beings as "aliens" who had lain dormant in deep underground caverns (like in the X-Files). The locust-like beings will be shaped like horses prepared for battle (Revelation 9:7). They will have heads on which they will have as it were crowns like gold (Revelation 9:7b). They will have faces as the faces of men (Revelation 9:7c), hair as the hair of women (Revelation 9:8), teeth as the teeth of lions (Revelation 9:8b), and breastplates as it were breastplates of iron (Revelation 9:9). They will have wings, the sound of which will be as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle (Revelation 9:9b). And they will have tails like unto scorpions (Revelation 9:10), and stingers in their tails (Revelation 9:10b).

    Regarding the subsequent, weird horse-like beings (Revelation 9:16-19), because they will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them hidden on the earth, they could be currently living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from the earth, such as on the far side of the moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the fourth planet's surface).

    The 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the Tribulation's sixth trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) have not come upon the earth yet (as is sometimes claimed), because one-third of mankind has not been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).

    Note that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 refer to the same, never-fulfilled Tribulation as Matthew 24, immediately after which Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Note that neither Christ, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the New Testament writers ever said anything to support the mistaken preterist idea that the Tribulation and Second Coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are in our past.

    Note that in Revelation 8:8 the original Greek word (ballo: G0906) translated as "cast" can also be translated as "thrown down" (Revelation 18:21b). And it could be Satan who will "throw down" a volcano into the ocean, such as by causing it to collapse during a huge eruption.

    Note that you previously said: "Revelation 8:8 refers to 'the sea' meaning globally".

    But in Revelation 8:8 the original Greek word (thalassa: G2281) is also used in Matthew 8:24, for example, to refer to a non-global body of water.

    So nothing requires that "the sea" (thalassa) in Revelation 8:8 is global. It could be the North Atlantic, which the U.S. and U.K. affectionately call "the pond".

    Regarding Luke 8:22, it uses a different Greek word (limne: G3041), which is translated as "lake". It can also mean "a pond" (Strong's Greek Dictionary).

    But "thalassa" in Revelation 8:8 doesn't have to refer to a lake, because it is also used, for example, in Acts 27:38 to refer to the Mediterranean Sea.

    Note that it doesn't have to in order to mean that.

    For example, the "blood" of grapes is not literal in Genesis 49:11. But red wine can appear like blood.

    How do you know, if you don't even know whether or not it has already been fulfilled?

    Note that the idea of the Trinity does appear in Scripture, and it is quite clearly spelled out.

    For the Bible makes abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28, Titus 2:13, Philippians 2:6, Matthew 1:23). And He is uncreated God, just as God the Father is uncreated God. For everything created was created by Jesus (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17). Because Jesus is uncreated, there was never a time when He was not. He has always existed. He is YHWH the Holy One, from everlasting (Habakkuk 1:12a, Acts 3:14, Micah 5:2c). He is YHWH the only Savior (Isaiah 43:11, Titus 2:13), YHWH the good shepherd (Psalms 23:1, John 10:11, Mark 10:18), YHWH who will set His feet on the Mount of Olives at His return (Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12), YHWH the first and last (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 2:8), YHWH the great I AM (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58), the great God (Titus 2:13), the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), one God with God the Father (John 10:30, John 20:28), equal in divinity with God the Father (Philippians 2:6).

    Just as the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19) is the three distinct, coexisting Persons (Mark 1:9-11) of God the Father (Galatians 1:3), God the Son (Hebrews 1:8), and God the Holy Spirit (cf. Mark 13:11 and Matthew 10:19-20; Acts 5:3-4), so the Trinity is YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit. For YHWH is the only God (Isaiah 45:5-6). He has always been and forever will be the only God (Isaiah 43:10b).

    Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that the idea of the Antichrist "is comprehensively defined and described exclusively in John's epistles", nor that the future man commonly called the Antichrist will in any way not fulfill John's declarations.

    No, for while they are opposed in principle, neither idea is spelled out in its entirety in the Bible using those specific words.

    Do you mean in his epistles?

    If so, note that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" refers to an actual, physical temple. For your argument is like the argument of full preterism which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 cannot be physical, because all of the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" refers to an actual, physical temple.

    But why restrict Paul's use of "naos" to only his epistles? For he used "naos" in Acts 17:24 to refer to actual, physical temples.

    Also, while the Church as a whole is indeed a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it is not the only temple of God. For it coexisted with the literal, second temple building which was in Jerusalem in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), just as the Church coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus Christ's individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the Church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all of these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, third, earthly, literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This third temple will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the second temple was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early Church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

    For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the third temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). This is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in His temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the second temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This is not to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old Covenant Mosaic-law third-temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God, because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus Christ and His once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

    Note that the Wailing Wall was an integral part of the second temple complex. That is why it is held to be so holy by the Jews today. It is their holiest place of worship in the whole world. No doubt God spared it for their sake.

    Note that it wasn't. For He prophesied of the still-future time when not one stone will be left upon another even throughout the entire city of Jerusalem (Luke 19:44).
     
  18. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    Matthew 24:34
    34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

    All in the Apostles generation. 70AD

    Remember one thing, Jesus spoke in parables!
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Only if you deny the enormous repository of existing evidence.

    Note that Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the New Testament writers delivered the Matthew 24 prophecies whose fulfillments are confirmed in the enormous repository of existing evidence.

    Yes, as confirmed from the dictionary definition of “cast” which I cited earlier. Recall that to throw something first requires that it be lifted.

    No, because “collapse” is not a synonym of “cast”.

    It could be a Jurassic dinosaur which will try to do the throwdown. But it won't succeed.

    But hey, where did Satan materialize from? There is no reference to him in the entire chapter. The second angel sounds his trumpet, and presto, Satan materializes to attempt a throwdown (at which he fails)? Imagine that. I can't. But then, I don't practise interpretation by imagination.

    What is the name of the non-global body of water which lies in the North Atlantic ocean off the shore of one of the Canary islands?

    Where in Scripture can I find where the U.S. and U.K. affectionately call the North Atlantic "the pond"?

    It is not I who insist that Revelation 6 through 18 will be literally fulfilled.

    “The Antichrist” or the idea of “The Antichrist” is alien to Scripture, and is in direct contradiction to 1 John 2:18 which declares that there have been many antichrists ever since John wrote.

    The specific word “antichrist(s)” and its specific meaning are spelled out in their entirety in the Bible in John's epistles. The specific word “trinity” and its specific meaning are not.

    Paul did not write the book of Acts. Luke did.

    I'm stocked up on popcorn.

    For some reason you ignored the information from the Jewish sources which I provided earlier, so here it is again. Note again that they confirm that the wailing wall was not an integral part of the second temple complex, which is why it was not destroyed.

    The Romans plowed Jerusalem with a yoke of oxen.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Matthew 24 didn't happen in 70 AD, just as Revelation chapters 6 to 22 didn't happen in 70 AD.

    (See also post #87 above)

    Not always (e.g. Matthew 20:19).

    (See also post #54 above)

    Also, Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus Christ's future, literal Second Coming, when He will appear in the clouds of the sky, the first heaven: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the future Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

    The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it is not the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus Christ Himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at His future, Second Coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before He lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), He could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see His Second Coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or, most people could see His Second Coming via a live, breaking-news video feed to their smartphone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus Christ's Second Coming is not obvious to everyone at the same time, then it is not really Jesus Christ. Another test is that the Church's physical resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the Second Coming of the real Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
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