Discussion among fellow Calvinists

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Wow!  This is a pretty cool idea I think partially to see who all my Reformed allies are on this site, but also to help me.  I need a consensus and a nice, very polite discussion.

I doubt anyone here has already decided as to whether or not they are infralapsarian or supralapsarian.  So let's talk about it.  The thing is, that only those who hold to TULIP can hold one of these.

Infra: God ordained His eternal decrees and sovereign plan AFTER the Fall

Supra: God ordained all BEFORE the Fall

I am undecided, though I am more thoroughly convinced on the unorthodox position of Infralapsarianism. 

The people I really would like to discuss with in a professional manner with are Reformationist and Gabriel.  All Calvinists are welcome to post insights and problems.  But the main point of this is not to try to post what you are, but try to discuss this in a business meeting type manner.  I would appreciate this not being a debate (back and forth volleying of arguments) but rather more of a cooperative effort to see where we stand.

Anyone up for this?  TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[SoccerAaron]

I would have to go with Supra.
If you believe in complete predestination, then the most logical thing is to go the full way unless there is proof for something less.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

All right sounds good. Any more thoughts on this? I (we I guess) are collecting in puts and trying to see what comes out.

The thing I have trouble reconciling with is Eph. 1:4. BEFORE the foundation of the world.

I have one problem. Please I intend no debate. But it seems to bring a contradiction.

God cannot have willed Adam to sin. God didn't ordain the Fall of Man. If God DID, then Adam would not have been doing wrong in eating the fruit. If God ordained Adam to eat from the tree, then the only way he could have sinned would have been to NOT eat.

Thus we are led to believe that man originally had free will. After this (Rom. 5:12), total depravity reigned supreme. The question is, if Adam's sin was deliberately out of free agency, then God could not have known the time of His fall. Ponder this. Free agency is unpredictable by nature, and the future cannot be known if it lies in everyday choices.

My main problem with supralapsarianism, is the question as to why God would come about with a plan of redemption, before the necessity of it came about. We are saved from sin. Before sin was invented, why would God orchestrate salvation? The only way, is if God ordained the fall of Adam to happen. But then it wouldn't be sin. See where I'm having trouble on this?

Perhaps God gave Adam an opportunity to sin with the tree, stuck Satan in the same garden, and then gave him free will to choose to obey or rebel. When he rebelled and his nature was plummetted into corruption, THEN the necessity of salvation would be there. Since free agency has now been lost, the future can be known, and shaped by God. This shaping was His unconditional election.

Now these are my thoughts. I'm having difficulty reconciling that verse though.

Perhaps there are factors we have left out?

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

7 point Calvinist?!

LOL! What are the other two points?

 

[Ioustinos]

I have not studied this much but right now I would most likely say "Supra". I too would also like to read the input of Gabriel and Ref, but I guess we will have to wait until tomorrow to find out.

 

[SoccerAaron]

Today at 06:08 AM Defender of the Faith 777 said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=678630#post678630)

7 point Calvinist?!

LOL! What are the other two points?

Piper did them. "Double Predestination" is the sixth. (when he ordained some to heaven at the same time he ordained some to hell) and the 7th point you can find out about here

 

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 08:13 PM Defender of the Faith 777 said this in Post #1

I doubt anyone here has already decided as to whether or not they are infralapsarian or supralapsarian.  So let's talk about it.  The thing is, that only those who hold to TULIP can hold one of these.

Infra: God ordained His eternal decrees and sovereign plan AFTER the Fall

Supra: God ordained all BEFORE the Fall

First off, God is not bound by time so dicussing the timing of God's decision using a term like "after" or "before" makes it a bit difficult to understand.  God does respond to anything we do.  He does not bless us because we pray for it.  He does not save us because we ask for it.  God is eternal, as is His Plan.  About the closest we can come to saying God "reacts" to our actions is to say that the our actions which are destructive will only continue to be destructive (not in the salvitic sense, in the temporal sense) as long as we continue to commit them.  For instance, if I am handling my money in an ungodly way the result will most likely be to be broke.  Now, if I start handling my money in a godly way then it will cease to be destructive.  It doesn't necessarily mean that my financial situation with improve over night.  But, my actions will no longer contribute to a destructive chain of events.  All of this deals with the way I look at the value in dealing with things in a godly way in spite of a continued difficult situation as well.  Now, God's provision for the salvation of man was something that the Godhead had foreordained.  As things, for us, follow a sequence then it may look like Adam and Eve sinned, then God punished them and made provision for His chosen.  To fully understand this we must look at the nature of God.  He is first causal in all things that pertain to His Plan.  If we understand that the Fall was part of God's sovereign, immutable Plan then we must acknowledge that provision for His elect was part of that Plan as well.  God's Plan always included the Fall of man, His provision of a Savior for His elect, setting His chosen apart, redeeming them and conforming them to the image of His Son.  What most Christians fail to understand is that Christianity, and specifically the Bible, isn't about us.  It's about what God has done.  It's about Christ.  We are just living His Plan out.  He is soverein and will, therefore, bring His perfect Plan to perfect completion just as He had foreordained.

God bless

 

[Gabriel]

I am short on time. I will have to say Mega Dittos to what Don said and leave the rest for tomorrow.

 

[Job_38]

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I lean more towards before the fall, but I also agree with Reformationist, in that it is a bit beyond comprehension of the human mind. But to be on the safe side, I am gonna say what 1 pete said.

 

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 06:58 PM Job_38 said this in Post #9

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I lean more towards before the fall, but I also agree with Reformationist, in that it is a bit beyond comprehension of the human mind. But to be on the safe side, I am gonna say what 1 pete said.

Just in case it was unclear, I most definitely think that it was foreordained.  I don't believe that anything happens "by chance."

As a side note, who is 1Pete?  I don't see his post here?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 08:28 AM Reformationist said this in Post #10

As a side note, who is 1Pete?  I don't see his post here?

God bless

Okay...I'm an idiot.  I just got what you were saying.  Geeesh.  Had a blonde moment there...please excuse me...

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Had a blonde moment... LOL!

Very nice inputs Ref. Thank you for that.

I have not entirely made my decision on this.

But my question is, did God ordain Adam's Fall? How is that possible?

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 10:50 AM Defender of the Faith 777 said this in Post #12

But my question is, did God ordain Adam's Fall?

Yes.

How is that possible?

Not sure what you mean.  It was part of God's Plan and therefore it was predestined to come to pass.  However, Adam and Eve freely chose to disobey God.  God did not force them to do it.  But, make no mistake, is was definitely His Will that it happen.

If your next question is why let me preemptively respond.  Only God truly knows.  The way things are being worked out is exactly according to His sovereign control.  I can make numerous guesses and if you're interested in that I will share.  My best guess would be because mankind, by nature, are all from Missouri (The "show me" state) .  We have a much easier time understanding the things of God by seeing it through His creation.  Christians are able to look at the fallen world around them and, specifically, the fallenness of heathens and it quickly becomes much clearer to us that from which we've been redeemed.  We can look at our own fallenness and thanks be to God for His elightening and regenerating our minds we are able to see, without doubt, that we are His and He is bringing about a change in us that will separate us from our own fallenness and the fallenness of the world.  IOW, we naturally, through being sanctified and through the regeneration of our minds, are able to have a much greater appreciation for God and worship Him.  What was the characteristic of the godless in Romans 1 that God defined?  "they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."  Aren't you thankful to God for His gift to you and don't you seek to glorify Him because you understand how unworthy you were of this magnificant gift?  Do you think that level of reverence and worship would be possible if you couldn't see the other side of it?  Well, to see the other side of it so that you would be thankful to God and glorify Him there would have to fallen people.  For there to be fallen people man had to fall from God's grace.  Hence, the Fall.  I'm sure there's more to it but, alas, I am a finite, ignorant, fallen creation and God's ways are beyond my comprehension.  That doesn't mean I don't try to understand.

Hope this helps.

God bless,

Don

 

[Rafael]

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

All that is important to God is foreordained, in my humble opinion. Without the darkness, the light would not be perceived.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts

I don't believe that God makes us robots yet I know He knows everything (omnicient) and is able to do things I can hardly dream of. I don't limit him with my limited ability to understand and just have faith that His will is right. I trust He will do what is according to His nature and the love He has shown. He gives us a choice because that is His will, but it doesn't mean He is not the author and finisher of our faith. To whom much is given, much is required. He gives the understanding to choose and we become responsible for what has been given.

 

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 09:30 PM raphe said this in Post #14

He gives us a choice because that is His will, but it doesn't mean He is not the author and finisher of our faith.

He gives us a choice to do what?

 

[Job_38]

CS Lewis talks about this. If it is Gods will that we make free choices, do we really have a free will?

 

[O.B.Joyful]

It seems to me that ordaining something "after" the fall would violate the meaning of the words "eternal plan."

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

At first glance, that is really bad syntax. My English professer would have thrown a fit, but it is correct. God does not exist in time and space. He entered in to time and space, He deals with us in time and space, but He does not wear a watch. I doubt we will find any resolution to the question of why did it all happen this way other than this:

The whole human experiment, is a means of God demonstrating his righteousness. (Romans 3:23-26)

Kyle

PS John Piper wrote a great article (or sermon) about this called "Is the Glory of God at Stake in His Foreknowledge of Human Choices?"

You can read it at desiringgod.org.

 

[Rafael]

A choice to be set free to become sons of God.

 

[JesusServant]

27th February 2003 at 04:41 PM Reformationist said this in Post #7

First off, God is not bound by time so dicussing the timing of God's decision using a term like "after" or "before" makes it a bit difficult to understand.  God does respond to anything we do.  He does not bless us because we pray for it.  He does not save us because we ask for it.  God is eternal, as is His Plan.  About the closest we can come to saying God "reacts" to our actions is to say that the our actions which are destructive will only continue to be destructive (not in the salvitic sense, in the temporal sense) as long as we continue to commit them.  For instance, if I am handling my money in an ungodly way the result will most likely be to be broke.  Now, if I start handling my money in a godly way then it will cease to be destructive.  It doesn't necessarily mean that my financial situation with improve over night.  But, my actions will no longer contribute to a destructive chain of events.  All of this deals with the way I look at the value in dealing with things in a godly way in spite of a continued difficult situation as well.  Now, God's provision for the salvation of man was something that the Godhead had foreordained.  As things, for us, follow a sequence then it may look like Adam and Eve sinned, then God punished them and made provision for His chosen.  To fully understand this we must look at the nature of God.  He is first causal in all things that pertain to His Plan.  If we understand that the Fall was part of God's sovereign, immutable Plan then we must acknowledge that provision for His elect was part of that Plan as well.  God's Plan always included the Fall of man, His provision of a Savior for His elect, setting His chosen apart, redeeming them and conforming them to the image of His Son.  What most Christians fail to understand is that Christianity, and specifically the Bible, isn't about us.  It's about what God has done.  It's about Christ.  We are just living His Plan out.  He is soverein and will, therefore, bring His perfect Plan to perfect completion just as He had foreordained.

God bless

Interesting.  I'm not even a "calvinist" and I agree with pretty much everything you stated here.

Especially the part about it all being about Him not us.

 

[Chey]

Oh but part of it WAS about us..otherwise there never would have been redemption.... we were valuable enough for God to die for us.
Now..as far as US having anything to do with our salvation...we must say YES , right? But of course God loved us first!
I know however, that what you really mean is that we aren't supposed to live our lives for God based on what He does for us..or based on how WE feel but based on God and HIS ways.
What hurts the most is to see your brothers and sisters who claim to know and love God, live like the devil...not merely falling short but choosing not to live by the word of God and other's accepting and even tolerating this.
Chey