Discussing the new socialist manifesto (not a book)

[GlabrousDory4]

Never as long as the GND and AOC are all the Right can think about...

The biggest threat to America is a 28 year old freshman congressperson armed with "ideals".

Now if only the Right had EVER seen idealism crushed in DC.

I don't think anyone really needs to worry. We are AMERICANS we can ensure that we keep millions away from healthcare, that the rich get richer at the expense of the poor and that we crater our future by inaction on climate if we really put our minds to it! WE CAN DO IT!

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It still fascinates me how perceptions from the far right seem to work with regards to what they constitute as "socialism" and how they see certain forms of redistribution as patriotic, but some how see others as a "threat to the American way"

Let's clear up a few myths right out of the gate:

In terms of the percentage of GDP we divert toward 'public spending', we're not that far off from the nations the far-right like to demonize as "socialist nanny states"

We spend 41% of our GDP on public spending endeavors.

To put that in some perspective, here's that percentage from some other countries:
Norway: 44%
Czech Republic: 43%
Luxembourg: 42%
Spain: 45%
Iceland: 47%
Germany 45%

We could go on...but you get the idea.

If the scale of "freedom loving American capitalism" and "evil Euro secular socialism" is a spectrum that goes from 41% to 47%, that means they either A) have very specific and granular standards (unlikely), or B) are just parroting back things they heard in right-wing echo chambers and have no idea what they're talking about.

The US, in terms of percentages and amounts, are really in the same ball park as most of Europe. The only major difference is where that money is allocated. We put more into bloated military spending, they put more into things that actually help people.


The next argument is going to be "look how much higher their tax rates are".

I've gone through this exercise, in detail, before...but I'll just give the high level version here.

The flaw they make when trying to make that argument, is that they don't take into consideration the fact that most European countries have just a single line item withholding for tax that covers Federal, Administrative district (state), and local, as to where ours are broken out into Fed, State, Local, SS, Medicaid.

When you actually add all of those line items together (plus the deduction for healthcare, since that's also bundled in with their single line item deduction), most people in the US would have the same equivalent take home pay and same (or better) standard of living in any of those Euro countries than what they have here. Do their ultra-rich people pay a little more...yes...they do. Much like ours used to way back before Reaganomics.

 

[rambot]

Under Bush my local averaged about $1 per hour annually in pay raises, under Obama we got only $2 per hour total spread out over 8 years...

Bush's empty fiscal policies endangered America
Obama had to bail America out from.

That's great that you benefited from the former. But don't be angry at the latter for having to fix the mistakes he had no control over.

 

[LoAmmi]

Under Bush my local averaged about $1 per hour annually in pay raises, under Obama we got only $2 per hour total spread out over 8 years...

Also had a major recession in 2008.

 

[Sparagmos]

Well, that wasn't your point at the onset. We were talking about government and you then inserted some comments about wealthy people. Being that this is not relevant to our discussion, I will leave it alone.


The petitioning is almost theoretical, as I am sure you know, and as for voting the pols out of office, that is the main threat to them.

But they only come up for reelection every two or four or even six years, and some judges not at all, let alone there being any term limits on department heads and other such people who make quite a few of the regulations that apply to our actions. As for the elected officials who can get voted out of office, that doesn't repeal the legislation or anything else they enacted while they were there, as your ACA example shows.

The comment of mine you originally replied to:
“You have an odd idea of “control.”
I don’t find that current government programs like Medicare and social security cause people to be “controlled.” In fact, in a democracy, when the government does something it means that WE THE PEOPLE are in control of it. Currently, I have no control over the cost, or people’s access to higher education. I have no control over fossil fuel companies whose only motivation is profit. I have no say in pharmaceutical prices.”

As someone who has done a lot of lobbying and been (once) involved in the legislative process at the state level, I can attest to the fact that citizens do have quite a bit of influence on legislation. Sure, we need to get more power to the people, but there is no question that we do currently have a lot of power that active citizens can leverage.

 

[Sparagmos]

Under Bush my local averaged about $1 per hour annually in pay raises, under Obama we got only $2 per hour total spread out over 8 years...

What industry? Did you have a pay freeze in there? Sounds like the employer was hit hard by the recession.

 

[Gigimo]

Also had a major recession in 2008.

And it lasted until 2017, only in the last year has our construction/renovation/retrofitting business started picking back up. Maintenance stayed fairly steady thru that time but construction/renovation/retrofitting was way down almost nonexistent. (We are looking for HVAC apprentices for the first time in almost 10 years). When the economy is slow scabs get most of the work when the economy grows bigger projects come along and they look to us cause we have the equipment, skill and knowledge to get the job done, the scabs don't.

 

[KCfromNC]

Also had a major recession in 2008.

Plus the weird issue of complaining about politicians not being able to fix wages in a thread complaining about SOCIALISM! Seems that the correct answer there is the free market option of getting a different job that pays better. Bootstraps, that sorta thing.

 

[LoAmmi]

And it lasted until 2017, only in the last year has our construction/renovation/retrofitting business started picking back up. Maintenance stayed fairly steady thru that time but construction/renovation/retrofitting was way down almost nonexistent. (We are looking for HVAC apprentices for the first time in almost 10 years). When the economy is slow scabs get most of the work when the economy grows bigger projects come along and they look to us cause we have the equipment, skill and knowledge to get the job done, the scabs don't.

Not going to disagree. We should enact proper regulations to prevent the behavior that allowed the recession to happen.

 

[Gigimo]

Not going to disagree. We should enact proper regulations to prevent the behavior that allowed the recession to happen.

The Government is going to regulate itself?

 

[Gigimo]

Plus the weird issue of complaining about politicians not being able to fix wages in a thread complaining about SOCIALISM! Seems that the correct answer there is the free market option of getting a different job that pays better. Bootstraps, that sorta thing.

It's called the Obama economy wasn't that great and is the reason why Dems are still wanting to get minimum wage raised. (To pay back some of the Unions whose contracts are tied to minimum wage, duhhhh)... They failed at fixing the economy so they want to mandate pay raises the economy still can't handle. Besides minimum wage is for no skill teenagers not adults with families, adults should be filling the jobs Obama said weren't going to come back (but for some strange reason are)??

BTW where do you suggest I look to get a job that pays better than $60(with benefits) per hour???

 

[Gigimo]

Bush's empty fiscal policies endangered America
Obama had to bail America out from.

That's great that you benefited from the former. But don't be angry at the latter for having to fix the mistakes he had no control over.

Are you sure it wasn't a holdover from the Clinton administration that "came home to roost"??

 

[LoAmmi]

The Government is going to regulate itself?

Why do you believe the 2008 recession happened?

 

[rambot]

Are you sure it wasn't a holdover from the Clinton administration that "came home to roost"??

How so?

 

[Sparagmos]

The Government is going to regulate itself?

No, the banking/finance industries.

 

[KCfromNC]

It's called the Obama economy wasn't that great and is the reason why Dems are still wanting to get minimum wage raised. (To pay back some of the Unions whose contracts are tied to minimum wage, duhhhh)... They failed at fixing the economy so they want to mandate pay raises the economy still can't handle. Besides minimum wage is for no skill teenagers not adults with families, adults should be filling the jobs Obama said weren't going to come back (but for some strange reason are)??

Again, more complaints about the government not providing you with the job you wished you had. And in a thread where the theme seems to be "SOCIALISM! is bad", too. Seems to be a bit of inconsistency there.

BTW where do you suggest I look to get a job that pays better than $60(with benefits) per hour???

Why are you asking me? Isn't the free market providing this information for you?

 

[Gigimo]

Again, more complaints about the government not providing you with the job you wished you had. And in a thread where the theme seems to be "SOCIALISM! is bad", too. Seems to be a bit of inconsistency there.



Why are you asking me? Isn't the free market providing this information for you?

Really?

If they stayed out of it I would be making more doing what I like but that's not their agenda, the so called tolerance, fairness, money redistribution and other silly memes are the issue. But to hear them tell it it's someone else's fault, right?

 

[KCfromNC]

If they stayed out of it I would be making more

Citation needed.

the so called tolerance, fairness, money redistribution and other silly memes are the issue

Yeah, far right characterizations of moderate Democrats such as these are pretty silly.

 

[mark46]

So, the right objections to the Green Manifesto moving us much too far along the spectrum toward socialism. Your argument is that we are already at 41%, so we're already there?

There are few details to the Green Agenda. However, the proposals seem very likely to increase the percentage significantly. Surely, this would happen as a result of one-payer health care and high speed rail. Obviously, there are other examples.

It doesn't seem a strong argument in favor of the Manifesto to point out that, if enacted, the US would likely be further along than most European countries on the spectrum towards socialism. [Or, we would at least as much Democratic Socialist as European countries.

If we all agree with the numbers, wouldn't this be a strong issue for the Republicans?

.

To put that in some perspective, here's that percentage from some other countries:
Norway: 44%
Czech Republic: 43%
Luxembourg: 42%
Spain: 45%
Iceland: 47%
Germany 45%

We could go on...but you get the idea.

If the scale of "freedom loving American capitalism" and "evil Euro secular socialism" is a spectrum that goes from 41% to 47%, that means they either A) have very specific and granular standards (unlikely), or B) are just parroting back things they heard in right-wing echo chambers and have no idea what they're talking about.
.

 

[Speedwell]

Since when is high speed rail "socialist?" I thought it was just a train.