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DISCERNMENT OF TRUE AND FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS/PREACHERS

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Trumpeter2, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. Trumpeter2

    Trumpeter2 Servant of God and His Christ

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    IMPORTANT NOTE: This study also applies to true and false teachers, and *organizations. (*A church/ministry can also be a true or false prophet/teacher depending on what their doctrine says and how they go about preaching that doctrine.)

    A. A true prophet leads people to the Bible and to Jesus.
    If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. ~ 1 Corinthians 14:37
    Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision. But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. ~ Acts 26:19-20
    According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, every man’s work shall be made manifest. For the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. ~ 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

    A false prophet speaks lies, leading people away from the Bible and YahuShua (Jesus) .
    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the way of Truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make mechandise of you, whose judgement now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. ~ 2 Peter 2:1-3
    And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. ~ Acts 13:6, 8
    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. ~ 2 Timothy 4:3-4
    One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. ~ Titus 10-14

    B. A true prophet confesses that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
    Hereby ye know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. ~ 1 John 4:2

    A false prophet brings in damnable heresies, denying the Lord who bought them, and does not proclaim that YahuShua (Jesus) The Messiah came in the flesh.
    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. ~ 2 Peter 2:1
    And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. And this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof you have heard that it should come, and even now already is it in the world. ~ 1 John 4:3

    C. A true prophet seeks to glorify God.
    He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory. But he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. ~ John 7:18

    A false prophet seeks glory for himself.
    For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s. ~ Philippians 2:21
    He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory… ~ John 7:18

    D. A true prophet speaks with God’s wisdom given him by the power of God’s spirit.
    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. ~ 2 Peter 1:21
    And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. ~ 1 Corinthians 2:4-5
    Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. ~ Amos 3:7

    A false prophet prophesies by his own wisdom or interpretation of Scripture.
    Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. ~ 2 Peter 1:20-21

    E. A true prophet gives warning, edification1, exhortation2, comfort and correction, as directed by God.
    So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at My mouth, and warn them from Me. ~ Ezekiel 33:7
    Wherefore will ye plead with Me? Ye all have transgressed against Me, saith the Lord. In vain have I smitten your children, they received no correction. Your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion. ~ Jeremiah 2: 29-30
    Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day, I have even sent unto you all My servants, the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them…But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the Lord their God, nor receiveth correction. Truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth. ~ Jeremiah 7:25, 28
    The prophets that have been before me and before thee of old prophesied both against many countries, and against great kingdoms, of war, and of evil, and of pestilence. ~ Jeremiah 28:8
    But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself, but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied. For greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpet, that the church may receive edifying. ~ 1 Corinthians 14:3-5

    1 edify: to instruct and improve especially by good example; benefit morally or spiritually
    2 exhortation: earnesty spoken words of urgent advice or warning

    A false prophet speaks ONLY of peace and prosperity.
    Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you. They make you vain. They speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. They say still unto them that despise Me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. ~ Jeremiah 23:16-17

    F. A true prophet will show good fruit and will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit.
    Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so, every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree can not bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. ~ Matthew 7:16-20
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Against such there is no law. ~ Galatians 5:22-23

    False prophets will show evil fruit and will exhibit the corrupt fruit of the devil.
    Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so, every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree can not bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. ~ Matthew 7:16-20
    For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. ~ Titus 10-14

    G. A true prophet rightly divides the Word of God.
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. But shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase unto more ungodliness. ~ 2 Timothy 2:15-16

    A false prophet shares opinions and distorts Scripture.
    As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest1, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. ~ 2 Peter 3:16

    1 wrest – to distort; to divert to an improper or unnatural use

    H. A true prophet puts his trust in God.
    Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. ~ Jeremiah 17:7
    Trust ye in the Lord forever, for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength. ~ Isaiah 26:4
    For the king trusteth in the Lord, and through the mercy of the Most High he shall not be moved. ~ Psalm 21:7

    A false prophet puts his trust in men.
    Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. ~ Jeremiah 17:5

    I. A true prophet speaks the true prophecies.
    And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come), then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them. ~ Ezekiel 33:33

    A false prophet speaks lies and gives false prophecies.
    Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the [prophet1], Hear now, Hananiah, the Lord hath not sent thee, but thou makest this people to trust in a lie. ~ Jeremiah 28:15
    Send to all them of the captivity, saying, Thus saith the Lord concerning Shemaiah the Nehelamite: Because that Shemaiah hath prophesied unto you, and I sent him not, and he caused you to trust in a lie...~ Jeremiah 29:31

    Note: 1prophet – In the Bible, both false and true prophets are called “prophets”. One must read the context of the chapter to understand whether the “prophet” is true or false, such as in Hananiah’s case. Hananiah was a false prophet, but Jeremiah was a true prophet, yet both were called “prophets”.

    J. A true prophet does not accept money for God’s words.
    Throughout the entire Bible, none of God’s prophets ever required money to deliver God’s messages. The entire Bible is a testament of this.
    But godliness with contentment is great gain. ~ 1 Timothy 6:6
    And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. ~ 1 Timothy 6:8

    A false prophet charges, or expects payment, for his words.
    If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil-surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the Truth, supposing that gain is godliness. From such withdraw thyself.But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil, which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.~ 1 Timothy 6:3-10
    No servant can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon1. ~ Luke 16:13
    And [through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you2], whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. ~ 2 Peter 2:3
    For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers,especially they of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. One of themselves, a prophet of their own… ~ Titus 10-12

    1 mammon: an often personified devotion to material possessions; also wealth
    2 [in their greed, these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up] – NIV
    3 lucre: monetary gain; profit; also money

    K. A true prophet is socially unacceptable to the proud and does not conform to people’s expectations.
    For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are, that no flesh should glory in his presence. ~ 1 Corinthians 1:26-29

    A false prophet is socially acceptable and conforms to people’s expectations.
    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. ~ 2 Timothy 4:3-4

    L. True prophets are generally disliked.
    Rejoice, and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. ~ Matthew 5:12
    Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. ~ James 5:10

    False prophets are generally liked.
    Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you, for so did their fathers to the false prophets. ~ Luke 6:26

    M. There are few true prophets.
    Then said Elijah to the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the Lord, but Baal’s prophets are found four hundred and fifty men. ~ 1 Kings 18:22

    Note: We are able to discern from 1 Kings 18:22 that while there were many false prophets of Baal and other gods, there was only one prophet, Elijah, of the True God. In the New Testament, we are shown that there will be more prophets as compared to the Old Testament…”To another, faith by the same Spirit; to another, the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, the interpretation of tongues” [1 Corinthians 12:9-10]. Even though there are more true prophets spoken of in the New Testament, the number will be less than the number of false prophets (see the verses below – the word “many”).

    There are many false prophets.
    Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel’s table. ~ 1 Kings 18:19
    And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. ~ Matthew 24:11
    Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you. Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity. ~ Matthew 7:22-23
    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets are gone out into the world. ~ 1 John 4:1

    N. The prophecies of a true prophet will come to pass.
    And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come), then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them. ~ Ezekiel 33:33

    The predictions of a false prophet will not come to pass.
    When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously. Thou shalt not be afraid of him. ~ Deuteronomy 18:22

    Beloved, believe not every spirit,
    but try the spirits whether they are of God,
    because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    ~ 1 John 4:1

    YahuShua (Jesus) warns us that in these last times, there would be “wolves” in “sheep’s” clothing (Matthew 7:15). Please remember, when testing the prophets or anyone who claims to be a servant of the Most High God, to use all Scripture, but especially the verses we’ve just noted. We cannot take only one verse of the Bible and judge whether or not someone is true or false. We must look at all the evidence and then decide for ourselves…Scripture is the rod by which we shall measure everything, including the validity of those who claim to be God’s servants.

    [* All noted definitions from Encyclopedia Britannica CD-Rom 2003]
     
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  2. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

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    2Ki 17:13
    Yet YHWH testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep My commandments and My statutes, according to all the Torah which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by My servants the prophets.

    Mat 5:18
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Torah, till all be fulfilled.

    The New Covenant

    Heb 8:10
    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith YHWH; I will put My Torahs into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a ELOHYM, and they shall be to Me a people:

    Jer 31:33
    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their ELOHIYM, and they shall be My people.

    ~~~~~~~

    Think not that I am come to destroy the Torah , or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:17

    fulfil plēroō
    to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full

    to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally


    Isa 42:21
    YHWH is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will magnify the Torah, and make it Honourable.



    YESHUA came to magnify the Torah, fill it to the full, Teach It accurately and not destroy It, and to make it honorable.

    The Number #1 thing that a True prophet is responsible to do, Is to turn the people back to YHWH's Torah, to keep His Commandments, Just like YESHUA did when He was on the earth.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  3. Roseonathorn

    Roseonathorn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks for the reminder, I did get a mail from some known evangelist saying that they would love to be in touch with me, but when I looked into it they wanted to sell a personal prophecy for 80 dollars. They called the payment a seed of Noa. I did feel that it was not quite in line with my beliefsystem, they also made it seem like You could get rich from it. I only felt like I would be ensnared. I did ignore the mail and pray that God help them get right in life.
     
  4. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

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    scripture does not use the word "Torah". Though I myself know the meaning implied, that being "the law" , to be saying Torah and replacing the word "law" ... that is adding to the text. superimposing an idealology that is not God, but man's. Judaism rejects our Lord Jesus Christ. It would make sense to alter text to further an agenda. In much the same way Jehovah's witnesses superimpose the name Jehovah where it ought not be either, insomuch as saying Jehovah prior to where it was revealed to be the name he was to be known at the time. Coincidentally, Isaiah 42:21 was in the context of how Israel was deaf and blind. The world does not currently know the Lord as YHWH or Jehovah, but as Jesus Christ. I thought that clear when he was crucified for our transgressions (of the law might I add) and raised from the dead? Did this not allow us to see clearly that which our fathers could only see through a glass darkly? That the first commandment was this, to love God with all thy heart, all thy soul and all thy mind. Old Testament was the same, in the substance of "not having any gods before him". The Lord was and is above all. There are only two religions. The one of Satan, and the other being the true faith of Jesus Christ.
     
  5. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

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    Luk 24:44
    And He said unto them, These are The Words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in The Torah of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me.

    Isa 8:20
    To The Torah and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to This Word, it is because there is no Light in them.

    Act 21:24
    Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest The Torah.

    And what does Paul do, he pays for the Animal sacrifices for the four men that had taken a vow, To prove that he walked orderly and Kept The Torah

    Rom 3:31 Do we then make void The Torah through faith? Forbid: yea, we establish The Torah.

    Pro 28:4 They that forsake The Torah praise the wicked: but such as keep The Torah contend with them.

    Psa 119:142 Thy Righteousness is an everlasting Righteousness, and Thy Torah is The Truth.

    Psa 40:8 I delight to do Thy Will, O my ELOHIYM: yea, Thy Torah is within my heart.


    Mat 23:23

    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted The Weightier Portions of The Torah, Judgment, Mercy and Faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    Know Torah, Know Judgment, Mercy and Faith.

    Mat 7:23

    And then will
    I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work anomia.

    anomia - the condition of without Torah

    1Jo 3:4

    Whosoever committeth sin anomia also The Torah: for sin is the transgression of The Torah.



    1Jo 1:9
    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
     
  6. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

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    I use a King James Version. I don't speak Hebrew. So again, to superimpose it, is to do exactly what I suggested before. The "Torah" (strongs 8451) is the book of the law and as such is suggested not to be comprehensive, and but mutually exclusive as you are suggesting. This instance of the word was used in the Old Testament and was prior to the law being fulfilled. It denotes customs, law, and direction, whereas I don't see Psalms or the prophets being included in that definition. Jesus himself said that he did not do away with it, was fulfilling it, and it is said to be written upon our hearts. Therefore, it would become fuller, with more meaning. Coincidntally, you don't see the word "Torah" transliterated into Greek into the New Testament in the same fashion. And seeing as how it is written in English that you and I are speaking currently, I can't see why you would choose to go back and put on the same yolk that was too heavy for our fathers to bear? What translation do you use? Because picking and choosing which words to translate and which to not skews one's perspectives. Too many people insist on labels that are truly not there. The Torah as you put it, is a word and label of this sort. Just like people with a denomination further an idea based on personal interpretations. Furthers an agenda and not the true message. This agenda being Rabbinical Judaism and as such has no authority over God's own word or the church.
     
  7. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

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    תּוֹרָה Torah - occurs 219 times in 213 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV - It means Direction - Instruction.

    The first occurrence

    Gen 26:5

    Because that Abraham obeyed My Voice, and kept My Charge, My Commandments, My Statutes, and My Torahs.

    Noah Kept the Torah, as God Instructed him to take seven pairs of the clean animals and one pair of the unclean into the ark

    Gen 7:2

    Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

    Now didn't YESHUA say to the religious rulers, the ones that were in authority over His People, "If you were the children of Abraham, then you would do the works of Abraham"... Yes He did, And He rebuked them because they had made void the commandments of God by their traditions, Isn't that Ironic!

    Pro 6:23

    For the Commandment is a Lamp; and The Torah is Light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

    Psa 119:105 Thy Word is a Lamp unto my feet, and a Light unto my path.

    Mat 5:16 Let your Light so shine before men, that they may see your Good Works, and Glorify your Father which is in Heaven.

    Light Shining equals Good Works, following His Instructions, His Way, on His Path, The Torah, which Glorifies Him

    Mat 4:4

    But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not liveby bread alone, but by every Word that Proceeds out of the Mouth of God.

    Isa 51:4

    Hearken unto Me, My people; and give ear unto Me, O My nation: for a Torah shall Proceed from Me, and I will make My Judgment to rest for a Light of the people.
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jews, in Judaism, I have posted at their sites, they would say instructions for life.

    The New Testament is instructions for eternal life.
     
  9. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

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    That's nice, as Torah by definition means Instructions, Direction - It's comes from the Hebrew word Yarah - to Teach, Point the way, the mark

    And since you believe in the NT, you shouldn't have any problem then with learning the rest of the Torah/Moses on the Sabbath, just as the Apostles instructed the new believers to do, right after giving them four basic requirements, if they weren't keeping at least those ones already.

    Acts 15:21
    For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

    Here's hoping that you might buy from Him Gold tried in the fire. Rev 3:18

    Psa 12:6

    The Words of YHWH are pure Words: as Silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    Pro 25:11

    A Word fitly spoken is like apples of Gold in pictures of Silver.

    Out of this thread for today, have other, Greater things to do

    Shalom Bet Yisra'EL
     
  10. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did not say "Torah". and he was the word made flesh. And if there were instructions for eternal life, in the Old Testament, why was New Testament written? The same can be said as to those who claim to be Jews and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan. If you believe in Christ, scriptures refer to those as Christians, first called so at Antioch. I don't see how calling oneself a "Messianic Jew" makes one more righteous and worthy of recognition and of the "true Israel", when it is clearly shown Israel to be a spiritual chosen people. Jew and Greek are one in Christ, yet you choose not to be a Christian on any level but insist on putting the yolk back on which we are told not to do. Our fathers could not even bear the weight of it, yet you insist on it, and neglect the teachings of the many times this very thing was addressed.
     
  11. Trumpeter2

    Trumpeter2 Servant of God and His Christ

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    The Old Testament is The Father revealing Himself, while pointing to The Son. The New Testament is The Son revealing Himself while pointing to The Father, also fulfilling the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament in Himself.
     
  12. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

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    It was a rhetorical question.
     
  13. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    I think "Torah" is actually "instruction." I understand that Christianity is not a "religion." Judaism is. Catholicism is.
     
  14. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

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    exactly my sentiments.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The Sabbath is an observation God gave to the children of Israel on Mt. Sinai. I am not a Jew, not a part of the Mt. Sinai Covenant. The ten utterances, as those of Judaism would say, of the ten commandments always existed, and are hinged on the two great commandments that Jesus stated. To love God with all your heart, with all your strength, with all your mind. And to love your neighbor as yourself.

    In the new covenant, God's laws are written upon the heart - meaning our desires are in line with God's desires.

    Neither am I, being a gentile by way of the flesh, become a "spiritual Jew" by virtue of being a Christian. I am a new creation in Christ, neither Jew nor Gentile. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, Jesus said. It was a day of rest. I rest in Christ.

    Paul admonished Peter for wanting to convert Gentile Christians, to the ways of Judaism, in Galatians.

    If a person is a Jew by way of the flesh, they may want to keep the Sabbath. But for them who are Gentiles by way of the flesh - Jesus is complete in all fulfillment of the law - that we don't convert to a law not given to our forefathers.

    So no, I am not going to shackle myself to the law which is observed by them by virtue of their forefathers being at Mt. Sinai , not mine. It is the same for circumcision. Because observance of the law of Moses, then becomes a curse... because I might fail in not keeping it in the manner of the Mt. Sinai covenant.

    Galatians 3, Paul speaking -

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    I hold to being free in Christ.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  16. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

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    From the Top - The Sabbath was set apart from the very beginning before Sinai, and is for All His People

    YESHUA is Adonai of the Sabbath

    There remaineth therefore a Sabbatismos to the people of God. Heb 4:9

    There remaineth therefore a Keeping Sabbath to the people of God. Heb 4:9

    Then you go on to say that you are still a gentile, contradicting Paul, unless you are not saved, who says that you are no longer a gentile according to the flesh, an alien, but are now a Citizen of Israel. Ephesians 2:11 Ephesians 2:12 And are of the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29, which is Israel, His Servant Isa 41:8

    As for the rest of your statement, what parts of the Torah do you suggest have been done away with.

    Do you have a list of which Commandments and Statues have been abolished, so that you don't get shacked by them, and keep them by accident?

    The Burden that the fathers could not bare was Adult circumcision the CONTEXT of the Jerusalem Council. Acts 15

    The Question

    Do you have to be circumcised to be Saved, the answer No

    Those that were preaching another Gospel said, you have to be circumcised to be saved, ( a painful thing as an adult) and the council decided on this One Issue, that circucision was not necessary for Salvation. And That was It.

    Context Context Context

    Then You go on to say that the Torah was not given to your forefathers.

    Cor 10:1
    Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    Why then does Paul tell former gentiles that it was his and their (our) fathers that came out in the Exodus?

    So How free are You, Free from sin, or free to sin?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Free from being one of Satan's hostages. Satan back in Genesis when he got Adam and Eve to sin, put all of humanity into being a hostage, that God could not fairly destroy him - without also destroying humanity for sin as well.

    But through Jesus and his death on the cross, , my sins have been dwelt with, washed away as though they never happened, praise God !

    The purpose that God entered the world to add to His being God to becoming a man was so that God's justice, as well as His mercy, could be harmonized - that man could be forgiven of his sins, washed away as though they never happened.

    Which is the redemption of the soul, to them who receive Jesus for his death on the cross - God's justice toward the punishment of sin - and Jesus's resurrection, God's mercy for man to have eternal life. Those persons who receive, believe on, Jesus.... are called Christians.
     
  18. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

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    Paul was both a Jew and a Roman citizen. He could freely say one thing or another concerning "fathers" concerning himself as a Jew and a Gentile. This reference being to God's chosen spiritual people. Being a believer in Christ, we ourselves are indeed just as Israel in the Old Testament, God's "chosen people", and as such can claim the same fathers led by Moses out of Egypt. Old Testament pointed to New Testament. Israel was the prototype for the church. Spiritual thing that you have to spiritually discern which you are not doing. Again, with keeping of the details. Did anyone mention there are 613 commandments in the Old Testament? Not 10. Big burden. Do you keep them all?Thankfully I believe in a God who is merciful. I've screwed up. I slept in on Sunday. I stayed out too late with some buddies another day. But I have a God who is merciful. I have God who loves me enough to say that I don't have to jump through 50 billion hoops to get him to like me. Even though I would if I could. No one ever has been able to keep the whole of the law, except Jesus. Who are you to cut up and persecute people who do love the Lord our God, the Almighty Father with all their heart mind and soul, while you yourself belittle people for your own glory and not the Father's?
     
  19. Servant232

    Servant232 Active Member

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    When the children of Israel put the blood upon the doorposts as they were instructed, they received Grace because of their Faith and were Passed Over. Also those that were not home-born Hebrews that did the same. And they all came out of the land of Egypt (bondage) together.

    Their redemption was not contingent upon anything, except upon whether or not the blood of the lamb was there... It did not matter what they had done previously, what sins they had committed, the type of person they were, If they believed the report, obeyed and applied the blood, they received Grace and were Passed Over.

    Just like it is Today, Grace through Faith

    YESHUA Is our Passover, Ahmane

    And After they were redeemed, YHWH gave them all His instructions written in stone on How they were to live as a peculiar people, set-apart unto Him, a Royal priesthood, and they failed in that mission that they were given ... Just like the majority of His people are failing to represent Him without profaning His Name by forsaking His appointments, just like their father's did before them, so they can go and serve other gods, examples: christmas (mythra) and easter (ashteroth) inherited lies, wherein there is Zero profit to observe or remember... Something that only those who are saved, that are guarding (shamar) His appointments are able to know.

    again, He forewarned this would happen ... He gave to His Body the mission to teach what He taught, and to observe all things He said, and that didn't happen as a whole, and His people have ended up envying what the swine are eating - Because they refused to obey and do what He said, Not One jot or tittle of the Torah shall pass away, but are still more than happy to teach a twisted version of Paul, that he himself warned about, the savage wolves that would come to take away disciples after themselves after he died... Peter warned that was already happening with the writings of Paul while he was still alive, that there were those that were unlearned, they did not know what the Torah teaches, did not have wisdom, leading others astray.

    Those that have been Redeemed are given a New Inclination, and their old Inclination for and towards the things of this world is taken away, (sin isn't as fun anymore) but the mind still needs to be re-newed, and the majority that do believe and are saved, think that only a third of the Word is truly important for that to happen, they NT, which leaves two-thirds of their brain still in captivity.

    One of the better promises for a believer in the New Covenant is that YHWH would write His Torah upon the mind of His people, the same Instructions that He gave written in stone up on mount Sinai... And that He would put His Spirit within whosoever believed, so that they would be able to keep His Commandments and that He would be their God and they would be His people, and in order to do that, He would first take out the stoney heart, and replace it with a new heart of flesh. A new Creation in Him. Ezekiel 36:26 2 Corinthians 5:17

    Thy Righteousness is an Everlasting Righteousness and Thy Torah is the Truth. Psa 119:142

    We agree on the Gospel, On How we are Saved... Just not on how a redeemed person is to Live after being saved.

    We are to Walk as He walked, And How did YESHUA walk? Live His Life? He kept the Torah, and we keep it too, because He puts it on the heart to do so and writes it on the mind of His people.

    God was not pleased with most of them, and they did not enter into the promise land, and died in the wilderness, stubborn and stiff-necked always resisting His Holy Spirit. Today's comparison, Those that reject the Torah for Instruction will not be accounted worthy to escape the hour of trial when it comes. His people, but they are not Psalms 91 ready. Why? Hosea 4:6 Because they rejected Knowledge, when they forgot about the Torah of their God

    Paul said that he delighted in the Torah after the Inward man, (the renewed man of the Spirit, The New Creation) Romans 7:22, but that he recognized that the old man was still present, and at work, warring against his mind, a sin nature that has been passed down in the flesh to everyone since the Garden of Eden.

    The short version, A person who is redeemed does not keep the Torah to be saved, they keep it because they are saved and God is putting it on their heart and writing it on their mind to do so. Ahmane
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
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