Disappointed in our culture.

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CharlesReid

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I wrote a small thesis on what the definition of 'Gospel' is in a blog the other day. I believe that there are attitudes, dogmas, and misguided orthodoxies that block the intention, direction, and methodology of the Gospel from the reader. I believe that the Gospel is a wonderful work of men, a treasure, a pinnacle of human consciousness. However, I believe it has been twisted into something hideous in our culture, and the negative, self-righteous attitudes are what transformed what is beautiful into something very ugly. I believe the Bible and the Gospel now is used more as a tool of self-righteousness then it is a seeking of liberation, and that Christian culture today doesn't assist seekers as much as it fosters mental illness in its followers. I am posting in this forum because, the idea of 'no creed but Christ' is one such very egocentric dogma that blocks us from seeing the intentions and salvation of the Gospel. I love the Christ and his words, and I have the utmost respect for him, but what I read in the Gospel on my own accord, without falling onto the semantics shift in our culture, was something very different then what the mainstream purports.

The blog can be found at myspace.com/charlie_op I will also post it up here -

I have come to understand the meaning of the word 'Gospel' as being akin to the eastern word Dharma. In fact, for all practical purposes, they are used to describe the two works almost identically. In this understanding, the gospel is not just the 4 canonized gospels nor the numerous non-canonized gospels. But, the way of life, truth, and the liberation from the clutches and barriers we impose on ourselves by the way we establish our human egos, our identities. As such, it is entirely possible for someone to have found the gospel without ever having read any of the biblical gospels, or even having any familiarity with those gospels. Similarly, it is also quite possible that one could have read every single gospel and had every verse memorized, and still have not seen what the gospel is.

The wisdom of the gospel exists outside of the gospels themselves, the gospel isn't the origin of the wisdom, the wisdom is the origin of the gospel. The gospel exists as an insight into wisdom; wisdom does not exist as an insight into the gospel. Many individuals are familiar with the gospel, and they have never even read the Biblical insights. Buddha and Lao Tzu were familiar with the gospel centuries before it was even written. And of course, many people have read the biblical gospel and yet are not in touch with it at all, often projecting their own egos into the books of the gospel. It is shocking and astounding, it truly demonstrates the power of the human psyche, and its ability to manifest their egos in the world around them. When you see 'I' in the gospel, re-read it with 'we', and the collective consciousness and dynamics of individuality. If you see an individual, or the addressing of any individual in exclusion to others within the gospel, then that is your ego tricking you, it is very good at this - nobody can deceive any of us more then our ego can, truly, nobody can trick you more then you can trick your self.

There are ideas in our culture that inhibit ones ability to obtain a personal insight into the gospel; ideas such as heresy, blasphemy, orthodoxy, unique salvation and these sorts of dogmas. These are egoistic projections that create barriers between us and the gospel. The way semantics and culture of Christianity have developed the insight into the gospel, it is quite possible to read the gospel, and have no idea what it says. In fact, if we predicate the language of the Gospel on our modern ideas of the definitions, then we are bound to misunderstanding it. However, Christ did something very unique that allowed for a sense of timelessness in his teachings, he taught in enigma's that could transcend the perversion of human social development, and the nature of culture and semantics. These enigma's were created to challenge us to see for our selves what it is that he meant. He didn't give us answers, he gave us parables, parables that we are supposed to contemplate. And as we contemplate them we are brought to understand the original intentions of Christ, and the sanctity of his words are preserved through his brilliance.

As such, though it is never my intention to exalt one gospel above another, I believe that the Gospel of Thomas can provide us with an understanding of the original intentions of the Christ in our culture, it could serve as the most effective introduction to the Gospel of Christ. There is no narrative, no simplistic assertions or negations, just a collection of 114 of Christ's enigmas. As we contemplate them, they reveal their meaning to us, if we refrain from projecting our egos into them, and seek to understand them.

The gospel is not blind obedience to superstition, superficial proclamation of beliefs, or anything that is driven by dogma. If you think you need your Bible for salvation, throw it away, because in that attitude you won't find it anywhere. Once you have thrown it away and stopped grasping for it, you can pick it back up out of the trash bin and finally gain some insight into it.

'Your worst enemy cannot harm you as much as your own mind unguarded, once mastered and directed, nothing can help you more.' - Buddha



'If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you; if you dont bring forth what is within you, what you dont bring forth will destroy you.' - Jesus


'The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao' - Lao Tzu
-----------------------------------------

Now, you may find something apparent - I fall pretty far from any orthodox Christian viewpoint. Yes! I do! Some others who have found a similar understanding of the Gospel and the Kingdom are - Leo Tolstoy, Gandhi, Elaine Pagels, and many others, its not something bizarre or unordinary, only compared to the twisted culture of orthodoxy. Now, have your hay day with me... :help:
 

SoulFly51

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The gospel of Thomas? I don't believe that's inspired, nor is it Scripture. There may be bits of truth in it (just like there's bits of truth in your post), but that could be said for Hitler's Mein Kampf as well.

Are you aware of the things biblical scholars have to say about the validity and historicity of the Gospel of Thomas?

The evidence for its authenticity is fairly dismal - it was not written by the Apostle Thomas - rather by someone else who used his name. Forgeries were common for a while, and this was one of them.

You said: If you think you need your Bible for salvation, throw it away, because in that attitude you won't find it anywhere. Once you have thrown it away and stopped grasping for it, you can pick it back up out of the trash bin and finally gain some insight into it.

I personally believe that the Bible is a window through which we can see God. While the Bible doesn't bring salvation, the truth it contains does.



You spoke a lot about ego, and, I don't know you, but from your post it appears that seeing ego/pride manifest itself in other individuals or institutions really ticks you off. Is that right?


Generally the things we hate the most when we see them in others are the very things we struggle the most with ourselves.
 
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CharlesReid

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You demonstrate the exact dogma I speak of. Thomas was written by the apostle, in fact, it was written not only prior to John, but quite possibly even the synoptic texts as well, likely even an association with the Q document. The arguments against its authorship come from the desperate cries of the christian fanatics who wish to cling to their orthodoxy. Thomas is scripture every bit as much as matthew mark or luke is. Funny thing is, it is absolutely compatible with the scriptural texts, however, it is only incompatible with the cultures developed dogma's.

"Generally the things we hate the most when we see them in others are the very things we struggle the most with ourselves."

Thats cute - no, I dont hate it, I dont hate anything in anybody, actually. Quite the opposite, I love everybody and if I didn't, I would not even have any desire to say or do this. But I say it out of love. You criminalize me because its convenient for you. When a pick-pocket sees a saint, all he sees is the saints pockets.

Furthermore - I have disilluded myself from any notion of an independent or unique identity, that is what ego is. So, wether or not you see ego in my posts is irrelevant, I realize that the ego doesn't even exist, so I cant cling to the imagination of something I created, now can I?

Let me ask you something - did the bible dictate truth, or did truth dictate the bible? Could somebody find the truth in the Sutra's of Buddhism or Hinduism? Or do you maintain the self-righteous attitude in the disrespect of the paths of others here as well?

Why dont you check out the blog I wrote, there is a piece I left out at the bottom of my thesis about the Christian fanatics who rebuke the thomas authorship. I left it out because its a bit harsh, but it really applies to you, as you attempted to rebuke its authorship. Truly, I've spoken with Ivy league professors and students, I've watched lectures, and done my research. The evidence that indicates an early authorship of the Thomas gospel is overwhelming, and the evidence to indicate a late authorship is minuscule.
 
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crawfish

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The gospel of Thomas? I don't believe that's inspired, nor is it Scripture. There may be bits of truth in it (just like there's bits of truth in your post), but that could be said for Hitler's Mein Kampf as well.

Actually, there are quite a few quotes in the GOT that match exactly those in the synoptic gospels. It seems to use Q and the other synptics as sources. I'd say that qualifies as truth. :)

The GOT is the earliest of the "lost" gospels known to the early church; however, most credible research shows it dating from around 120-150AD. That would be 30-60 years after the gospel of John, the latest of the accepted four.

Most likely it was written in the rise of the Gnostics after 100AD, the seeds of which you see in I and II Corinthians. Although many of the sayings are the same as from other gospels, the added quotes take the meaning down another path entirely; altering the original meaning.
 
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JDIBe

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I believe the Bible and the Gospel now is used more as a tool of self-righteousness then it is a seeking of liberation, and that Christian culture today doesn't assist seekers as much as it fosters mental illness in its followers. I am posting in this forum because, the idea of 'no creed but Christ' is one such very egocentric dogma that blocks us from seeing the intentions and salvation of the Gospel.

Well thanks for taking the time to come by to insult the members of our forum. :) In the future, such posts as this would be better placed in the "ask a RM" subfolder instead of this one which is for RM members only.

I find it interesting that you claim we can "throw the Bible out", but yet you strenuously argue for the inclusion of the GOT into it.

I have read the GOT. It contains such wonderful insightful statements such as,

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."
Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."


12. The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"
Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."


The earliest Church leaders ALWAYS considered there to be FOUR Gospels, no more and no less. When Marcion the Gnostic heretic began his quest to "purify" the Bible, the GOT is not even mentioned. Period. Good or bad. James was NEVER CONSIDERED "the reason heaven and earth came into being".

Females can be females and make it just fine, thank you very much.

In all of your studies friend, I think you really have missed the essence of what the Gospel really is...

1Cor 15:1-8
(1) Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,
(2) by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.
(3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
(4) and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;
(5) and that he appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve;
(6) then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep;
(7) then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles;
(8) and last of all, as to the child untimely born, he appeared to me also.


You can search the world over for "enlightenment". You can find out "how to be a good person" from many earthly sources. Many are helpful. What you cannot escape however, is the fact that you have sinned and there is nothing you can do about that. None of these sources will tell you how to reconcile yourself to God. Only Christ can (has done) that. Not Budda or Leo Tolstoy or Gandhi or Elaine Pagels. Until you understand that and accept His Word nothing else written by any man is worth the paper it's printed on.
So yes, the Bible is necessary for salvation, for it is the story of Jesus who died for our sins and how we access that free gift. That is the essence of the Gospel. It is not "how to live a good life". It is that you HAVE NOT "lived a good life" and something was done about it. Nothing else matters until you have accepted this assumption. How to live as a Christian, pleasing in God's sight, is necessary but comes after.

I think it is worth mentioning in all this discussion of "Q", is that the book does not exist! It is never referred to directly. No copies of such a document have ever been found. It is simply a theorectical construct hypothesized to explain why the Synoptic Gospels are so "synoptic". There are other equally plausible explanations. (The writers saw the same events and Matthew, Luke and Mark could have used each other as "source material" as well as the H.S.)

A more likely reason some passages in the GOT "agree" with the four Gospels is simply because they were copied from them. Unfortunately, other things were added as well. This is the case with most believable lies. There is just enough truth in them to make it believable.

I know you think I am "brain dead". I know you think the Gospel of John was written by someone (I hope you think it was John...) to refute the GOT. But I think you are mistaken. Just because something is relatively new or interesting or exciting does not mean it is necessarily true....
 
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crawfish

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I think it is worth mentioning in all this discussion of "Q", is that the book does not exist! It is never referred to directly. No copies of such a document have ever been found. It is simply a theorectical construct hypothesized to explain why the Synoptic Gospels are so "synoptic". There are other equally plausible explanations. (The writers saw the same events and Matthew, Luke and Mark could have used each other as "source material" as well as the H.S.)

The reason that some scholars are certain that there was some other source was that there are accounts in the Matthew & Luke that are EXACTLY, word-for-word, the same. If two people write about the same event, they might write something similar in nature but the chance they'd use the exact same words is remarkably slim.

I don't think it invalidates the NT to think that the latter two books were written using notes from some other source. Note that the source is "unknown" - it could've been Matthew's notes, which were loaned to Luke. It is important to note that none of the gospels were written as a "personal account" from the standpoint of one person, and none are comprehensive accounts; they are written for a particular purpose, to illustrate a particular side of Jesus, with many varied stories. It's not the author recounting certain memories; it is more likely a collection of recollections from various people in Jesus' life, with the author choosing those stories that were valid towards his purpose.
 
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JDIBe

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The reason that some scholars are certain that there was some other source was that there are accounts in the Matthew & Luke that are EXACTLY, word-for-word, the same. If two people write about the same event, they might write something similar in nature but the chance they'd use the exact same words is remarkably slim.

I don't think it invalidates the NT to think that the latter two books were written using notes from some other source. Note that the source is "unknown" - it could've been Matthew's notes, which were loaned to Luke. It is important to note that none of the gospels were written as a "personal account" from the standpoint of one person, and none are comprehensive accounts; they are written for a particular purpose, to illustrate a particular side of Jesus, with many varied stories. It's not the author recounting certain memories; it is more likely a collection of recollections from various people in Jesus' life, with the author choosing those stories that were valid towards his purpose.

True, but another likely possibility is that Luke simply borrowed the material from Matthew's account or vice versa. There doesn't have to be an "original source document" at all.

A lot of times the "Q" discussion comes up when people start hypothesizing that the Gospels are an imperfect copy of this mysterious perfect document "Q". They then go on to claim that "their" Gospel came from the same source so it is equally valid.

There may or may not have been a "Q". All I'm saying is sometimes we take for granted that it actually existed. It is important to keep in mind when talking about it, is that it is hypothetical. It has never been proven to exist.
 
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