Direct triangulation shows the universe just older than 6000 years

[grmorton]

It had to happen. It was just a matter of time. And now it has. Direct geometrical surveying of the stars, using the earth's orbital diameter as a baseline for the triangle has shown that the stars in a nearby galaxy are 6357 light-years away.



Thus the predictions and claims of the YECs over the years have finally given way to the advance of science.



Henry Morris, when discussing the direct measurement of stellar distance said:



"Thus, the Biblical cosmology is quite consistent with the idea that some of the distant galaxies may be billions of light years from the earth. On the other hand, there is no way that astronomers can measure such distances directly. The greatest distance that can be measured directly by methods of triangulation, using the two extremes of the earth's orbit as end points on a base line, is about three hundred light years."

" Greater distances than this require a series of esoteric assumptions related especially to certain stars known as Cepheid variables, in particular the relation between the frequency of their pulsations and their brightness, both apparent brightness and intrinsic brightness." Henry M. Morris, Biblical Basis for Modern Science, (Grand Rapids: Baker Bookhouse, 1984), p. 173.





Well, he is wrong.



Marvin Lubenow wrote:



"Many do not realize that the farthest direct age/distance measurement we can make in the universe is limited to about three hundred light years, done by triangulation using the diameter of the earth's orbit as a baseline. All age/distance measurements beyond that are indirect, and are based on assumptions which may or may not be valid)." Marvin L. Lubenow, Bones of Contention, (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1992), p. 201



Well, he is wrong.



Donald DeYoung wrote:



"From this triangulation (or surveying) method, the star distance is determined. In figure 4 the parallax angle is exaggerated. It is always
smaller than one second of arc, less than 0.0003 degrees. The parallax technique works for stars out to a distance of about 300 light-years (ly).
(See Question 74 for the definition of a light-year.) About 700 stars fall within this range, including Arcturus (36 ly), Sirius(8.6 ly), and Spica (220 ly). Beyond 300 light-years, the parallax angle becomes too small for accurate measure." Donald B. DeYoung, Astronomy and the Bible, (Grand
Rapids: Baker Bookhouse, 1989 tenth printing 1994), P. 58







Well, he is wrong.



Danny Faulkner writes:

The Role Of Stellar Population Types In The Discussion Of Stellar Evolution CRSQ Volume 30(1) June 1993

It is often stated that this method of distance determination works accurately up to a distance of 100 parsecs (roughly 300 light years). Actually, at 100 parsecs the error in the measurement is equal to the measurement itself, and this method is only reliable (errors within 10 percent) to about 20 parsecs (65 light years) (Mihalas and Routly, 1968; Smart and Green, 1977). http://www.creationresearch.org/crs...StellarPop.html





Well, he is wrong.



This measurement has an error of 40 parsecs (130 lightyears), or 2% of the distance. This means, that the galaxy lies between 6226 and 6487 lightyears distance. The error is so small that there is no way that this very close galaxy can fit within the 6000 year universe of the YECs.



Thus, Danny now is doubly wrong. Wrong that the stars wouldn't be measured to that distance and wrong that the error wouldn't improve over the years. YEC makes no provision for the improvement in technology and thus claim things that will be refuted within a person's lifetime.



Of course, the YECs will do what YECs always do--ignore the new data, reformulate their weird belief system by using Humphreys flawed general relativity work. Or they could claim that geometry itself is wrong. The YECs will say whatever they have to say in order to stay with a falsified belief system. Morton's demon is quite a powerful creature.



The source of this information is http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conte.../1120914v1?etoc



The Distance to the Perseus Spiral Arm in the Milky Way
Y. Xu , M. J. Reid , X. W. Zheng , K. M. Menten



Enjoy this you YECs.

 

[CoolMom6]

way cool

 

[Lucretius]

Informative, though I would have thought that this triangulation had been done a while ago (the method doesn't seem all that complex, seeing as we've possessed knowledge of geometry for some time.) I love how the Creationists you quoted tried to just make up factors to explain why the results could be wrong, simply because the 6,000 year old universe did not fit the facts.

 

[Grengor]

Page not found.

 

[jwu]

And now it has. Direct geometrical surveying of the stars, using the earth's orbital diameter as a baseline for the triangle has shown that the stars in a nearby galaxy are 6357 light-years away.

In a nearby galaxy or in the nearby galaxy (i.e. in our own galaxy, in our neighbourhood)?

PS: Ah, found it in the reference:

The Distance to the Perseus Spiral Arm in the Milky Way

 

[HairlessSimian]

Of course, the YECs will do what YECs always do--ignore the new data, reformulate their weird belief system by using Humphreys flawed general relativity work. Or they could claim that geometry itself is wrong. The YECs will say whatever they have to say in order to stay with a falsified belief system. Morton's demon is quite a powerful creature.

Right you are. Good one. Another thing they'll do is claim the error is greater, misquote the source, distort reviews into disagreement and glorify contrary opinion by 'christian' astronomers.

 

[Donkeytron]

Nice post Glenn, although I recall seeing on another CnE board somewhere a similar post, only it was concerning a triangulation calculation using data from the 1987 supernova.

 

[Edx]

In a nearby galaxy or in the nearby galaxy (i.e. in our own galaxy, in our neighbourhood)?

No, in a galaxy far far away.

 

[sld]

This is a great achievement of modern day Astronomy, and is evidence of the superiority of science over creationism. Morris, et al would have you believe that the way you do triangulation, is to look through your back yard telescope and see how much the background stars shift in 6 months. Even with the best telescopes such a system probably wouldn't get you out to 300 light years. Real science is far more complicated, and takes a lot of extensive studies and measurements and interpretation before you get it to boil down to the simple matter of triangulating geometry.

SLD

 

[Mystman]

you screwed up the link to the original article

 

[TeddyKGB]

No, in a galaxy far far away.

Why bring up stuff that happened a long, long time ago?

 

[grmorton]

Right you are. Good one. Another thing they'll do is claim the error is greater, misquote the source, distort reviews into disagreement and glorify contrary opinion by 'christian' astronomers.

How could I possibly forget all these options. I hang my head in shame.

 

[grmorton]

Nice post Glenn, although I recall seeing on another CnE board somewhere a similar post, only it was concerning a triangulation calculation using data from the 1987 supernova.

The difference here is that there are no assumptions other than that direct geometrical surveying works. With SN1987, there is the need to know the size of the gas ring, which is determined by the time delay it took for the light to travel from the supernova to the ring and then be reflected on to earth. While a change in the speed of light makes no difference to that size determination, the YECs have muddied and muddled it up by pointing this out. The importance of this measurement is that they can't say it is bad without also saying that the surveyor who surveyed the lot their house sits on is also using a flawed methodology.

THere actually have been a couple of further triangulations than SN1987a but they don't get the press that SN1987a does.

"We combine the angular expansion rate determined by the VLBI data
with the optically derived expansion speed to estimate a distance to
M81 of 4.0 +/- 0.6 Mpc, consistent with the value obtained from
measurements of Cepheid variables in M81, 3.63 +/- 0.34 MPC." ~ N.
Bartel et al, "The Shape, Expansion Rate and Distance of Supernova,
1993J from VLBI Measurements," Nature, 368, April 14,1994, p. 610

But the OP notes the most simple method of determining distance--direct triangulation, now shows the universe is older than 6000 years.

 

[Hydra009]

How could I possibly forget all these options. I hang my head in shame.

Eh, you can't change people's defense mechanisms, you just have to show them the data and hope they can comes to terms with it.

 

[PKJ]

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8436&feedId=online-news_rss20

 

[dad]

..

But the OP notes the most simple method of determining distance--direct triangulation, now shows the universe is older than 6000 years.

No, it shows a certain distance, measured by present light, and it's speed. Nothing to do with time, unless one for some reason assumed the present light was always all there was. This usually comes as a result of the mother of all assumptions, that the universe was physical only in the unknown far past. No evidence exists for this belief any more than assuming this decaying physical only universe will exist in the future. There is a new heavens coming, as you would know, being a christian. One in which there is no death, and decay. One in which we live forever, not in physical only bodies. Heaven could not exist in a PO future! There lies the line in the sand for you. You need to make up your mind which side you are on here. If you admit heaven, and the new eternal heavens, you cannot assume the PO into the future.

 

[HairlessSimian]

No, it shows a certain distance, measured by present light, and it's speed. Nothing to do with time, unless one for some reason assumed the present light was always all there was. This usually comes as a result of the mother of all assumptions, that the universe was physical only in the unknown far past. No evidence exists for this belief any more than assuming this decaying physical only universe will exist in the future. There is a new heavens coming, as you would know, being a christian. One in which there is no death, and decay. One in which we live forever, not in physical only bodies. Heaven could not exist in a PO future! There lies the line in the sand for you. You need to make up your mind which side you are on here. If you admit heaven, and the new eternal heavens, you cannot assume the PO into the future.

Same old dad. Nothing new to say, I see.

 

[HairlessSimian]

In case anyone missed dad these past coupla weeks, he's been busy being fruitful and multiplying himself:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3810&st=495&#entry42122

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=2&t=214&m=136

 

[Ampoliros]

Of course, the YECs will do what YECs always do--ignore the new data, reformulate their weird belief system by using Humphreys flawed general relativity work. Or they could claim that geometry itself is wrong. The YECs will say whatever they have to say in order to stay with a falsified belief system. Morton's demon is quite a powerful creature.

Hmm.

No, it shows a certain distance, measured by present light, and it's speed. Nothing to do with time, unless one for some reason assumed the present light was always all there was. This usually comes as a result of the mother of all assumptions, that the universe was physical only in the unknown far past....(*more made up stuff*)

That was very quick, dad. Bravo.

 

[dad]

Same old dad. Nothing new to say, I see.

Hey, had to throw down the white glove there, because it is based on pure assumption. Actually, I do have a new tidbit, related to supernovas, in case it should come to that. But I think here, it is just that we need to try to seperate the christians from the non believers somewhere. We can't have no heaven, or there is nothing. Heaven can't be PO, or it would not be eternal. The city of gold comes down to earth only after the new heavens are revealed. It's not coming to this temporary soon to pass away PO universe!