Different laws for Jews and Gentiles?

[JM]

I think he made a pretty good argument then. With no response I think his opinion stands as correct.

ToBeLoved,

After both sides present information it now comes down to presuppositions. These are foundational ideas we all hold to when analyzing information that colour how we understand it. People today believe that Law is opposed to Grace, which isn't true. We are saved by Christ's righteousness and His death, that righteousness imputed to us is based on His sinless life. We can say Christ is sinless because He kept the Law - perfectly. If you deny the eternity of the Law you deny the righteousness of Christ.

That's another reason it isn't a good idea to just pound away on a brother/sister in Christ when we differ on some theological point. It just causes hard feelings. We are commanded to "renew our minds" to conform to the will of God.

That we must do.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[BABerean2]

If you deny the eternity of the Law you deny the righteousness of Christ.

Exo 34:28　 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.　
(The 10 commandments are the Sinai covenant.)

Deu 5:2　 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.　
Deu 5:3　 The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
(The Sinai covenant was not given earlier.)
　

Joh 15:10　 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
(Christ did not say..."Keep My Father's commandments")　


Act 15:10　 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?　
(Peter did not say... "Now we can bear the yoke, through Christ.")


Gal 3:17　 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.　(Something added 430 years after the promise to Abraham cannot be eternal.)

Gal 3:18　 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.　

Gal 3:19　 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.


Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　

Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."　
Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.


Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.　


Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　
Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　
Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　
Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

Attempting to keep Christians under the Law of Moses has been one of the greatest errors of the modern Church.

We are under the Law of Christ, which is not just a set of laws. It is what the power of the Spirit enables believers to accomplish in the New Covenant.


2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　

2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　

2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Sadly, the Judaisers continue to confuse the two covenants.

Act 15:5　 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."　


New Covenant Theology: New Kid on the Block ? (David Gay)
http://media.sermonaudio.com/articles/da-1131512340-1.PDF

.

 

[ToBeLoved]

ToBeLoved,

After both sides present information it now comes down to presuppositions. These are foundational ideas we all hold to when analyzing information that colour how we understand it. People today believe that Law is opposed to Grace, which isn't true. We are saved by Christ's righteousness and His death, that righteousness imputed to us is based on His sinless life. We can say Christ is sinless because He kept the Law - perfectly. If you deny the eternity of the Law you deny the righteousness of Christ.

That's another reason it isn't a good idea to just pound away on a brother/sister in Christ when we differ on some theological point. It just causes hard feelings. We are commanded to "renew our minds" to conform to the will of God.

That we must do.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

The issue is between two covenants. The Old Covenant which is sealed by the Law and obeying it perfectly and the New Covenant of grace. Now, some like to play both sides of that theological fence, but God tells us that one can only be under one Covenant and with the New Covenant the Old Covenant has passed away.

Jesus is the new High Priest of a better covenant. So you can be under the Old Covenant and disregard grace, but I'm not.

 

[BABerean2]

The issue is between two covenants. The Old Covenant which is sealed by the Law and obeying it perfectly and the New Covenant of grace. Now, some like to play both sides of that theological fence, but God tells us that one can only be under one Covenant and with the New Covenant the Old Covenant has passed away.

Jesus is the new High Priest of a better covenant. So you can be under the Old Covenant and disregard grace, but I'm not.

New Covenant Theology: New Kid on the Block ? (by David Gay)
http://media.sermonaudio.com/articles/da-1131512340-1.PDF


This article is intended for our Reformed Baptist friend, JM.
It is written by a man who used to be a Reformed Baptist, like him.
However, this man had to give up his manmade confessions because he could not get them to agree with his Bible.

.

 

[ToBeLoved]

New Covenant Theology: New Kid on the Block ? (by David Gay)
http://media.sermonaudio.com/articles/da-1131512340-1.PDF


This article is intended for our Reformed Baptist friend, JM.
It is written by a man who used to be a Reformed Baptist, like him.
However, this man had to give up his manmade confessions because he could not get them to agree with his Bible.

.

That's the best reason to reexamine one's theology.

I don't believe that JM has even shown that the Old Covenant goes back as far as Adam, because he can't prove it, because the Bible distinctly says that the Old Covenant began with the Law (10 Commandments).

What bothers me is how tied to his theology he is instead of the Truth of God. That is a sad place to be when one cannot be taught anymore by God's Word.

 

[BABerean2]

That's the best reason to reexamine one's theology.

I don't believe that JM has even shown that the Old Covenant goes back as far as Adam, because he can't prove it, because the Bible distinctly says that the Old Covenant began with the Law (10 Commandments).

What bothers me is how tied to his theology he is instead of the Truth of God. That is a sad place to be when one cannot be taught anymore by God's Word.

I am sure it has been very difficult for him, because he had abandoned Dispensational Theology and gone over to Reformed Covenant Theology, instead.

One of the leaders of my Dispensational church body told me those were the only two choices.
Now, I have found that neither is correct.

We are to love all of our Brothers and Sisters, as Christ loved us.
Perhaps that love will be the thing that finally makes the difference.

One of the preachers I love would readily cross the street to shake my hand and tell me that he still loves me, even though we differ on doctrine.

However, another would cross over the street to avoid me, because I dared to challenge John Darby's doctrine.

I still love both of them equally, because Jesus loved me when I was a sinner in rebellion against Him. He laid down on that Cross for me.

The Master Carpenter has built us a New House out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.

Praise God and His Son!

.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am sure it has been very difficult for him, because he had abandoned Dispensational Theology and gone over to Reformed Covenant Theology, instead.

One of the leaders of my Dispensational church body told me those were the only two choices.
Now, I have found that neither is correct.

We are to love all of our Brothers and Sisters, as Christ loved us.
Perhaps that love will be the thing that finally makes the difference.

One of the preachers I love would readily cross the street to shake my hand and tell me that he still loves me, even though we differ on doctrine.

However, another would cross over the street to avoid me, because I dared to challenge John Darby's doctrine.

I still love both of them equally, because Jesus loved me when I was a sinner in rebellion against Him. He laid down on that Cross for me.

The Master Carpenter has built us a New House out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.

Praise God and His Son!

.

I agree with all that you said above.

What I am waiting for is JM to come back and answer the questions that we have asked, because if he believes that his conclusion is right than he would have great answers, but I yet to read these.

That blue font is going to kill my eyes.

 

[JM]

I agree with all that you said above.

What I am waiting for is JM to come back and answer the questions that we have asked, because if he believes that his conclusion is right than he would have great answers, but I yet to read these.

That blue font is going to kill my eyes.

I'm knee deep in theological study right now! lol I bought a bunch of books on Eastern Orthodox theology so I probably won't engage.

I'll just point out that New Covenant Theology is really just a different form of Dispensationalism. It still seeks out the differences in scripture rather than the unity and it's really hard to discuss if you are not aware of your own presuppositions. The covenant made in Jer. 31 speaks to ethnic Jews and tells them the Law will be written on the hearts of those in that covenant. The New Covenant. There is no other Law.

Just wanted to say thanks to BA. I spent some time studying the issue of the Lord's Day Sabbath under the New Covenant and now see I must confess the Lord's Day Sabbath to be binding upon all Christians because it is a creation ordinance. Thanks BA. For years my family lived as if we believed in the Lord's Day, not working or shopping, focusing on worship and prayer. The Lord used you brother to give me that conviction.

Thank you.

jm

 

[BABerean2]

Just wanted to say thanks to BA. I spent some time studying the issue of the Lord's Day Sabbath under the New Covenant and now see I must confess the Lord's Day Sabbath to be binding upon all Christians because it is a creation ordinance. Thanks BA. For years my family lived as if we believed in the Lord's Day, not working or shopping, focusing on worship and prayer. The Lord used you brother to give me that conviction.

Thank you.

Brother JM,

When you have some time to listen, start at about 1:05 into the following message.

It will give some thoughts on your Sabbath conclusion found above.

Then go back and listen to the whole message by Pastor John G. Reisinger on the presuppositions of Covenant Theology and Dispensational Theology.

There you will find the relationship between the presuppositions of those two and the New Covenant.

You have just demonstrated one of the presuppositions.


.

 

[JM]

Thanks BA. I'm moving in a different direction right now, for a little while. I'll come back to this topic eventually but theology is such a huge endeavor I need to keep moving. lol I find I gain better perspective from learning about all issues of theology and who they relate.

Peace.

 

[BABerean2]

Thanks BA. I'm moving in a different direction right now, for a little while. I'll come back to this topic eventually but theology is such a huge endeavor I need to keep moving. lol I find I gain better perspective from learning about all issues of theology and who they relate.

Peace.

You know I love you, Brother JM.

I will leave you a message from one of our favorite preachers.

He understands you better than I do.

He has been where you now are...

 

[JM]

You know I love you, Brother JM.

I will leave you a message from one of our favorite preachers.

He understands you better than I do.

Be careful bro...your love for this man is on the extreme side. Better to study other points of view to gain balance.

 

[BABerean2]

Be careful bro...your love for this man is on the extreme side. Better to study other points of view to gain balance.

Here is some of this "New" doctrine...

from around 626 BC

Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


from the First Century (almost 2,000 years ago)

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Watch out for this "new" New Covenant Theology...

lol

.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm knee deep in theological study right now! lol I bought a bunch of books on Eastern Orthodox theology so I probably won't engage.

I'll just point out that New Covenant Theology is really just a different form of Dispensationalism. It still seeks out the differences in scripture rather than the unity and it's really hard to discuss if you are not aware of your own presuppositions. The covenant made in Jer. 31 speaks to ethnic Jews and tells them the Law will be written on the hearts of those in that covenant. The New Covenant. There is no other Law.

Just wanted to say thanks to BA. I spent some time studying the issue of the Lord's Day Sabbath under the New Covenant and now see I must confess the Lord's Day Sabbath to be binding upon all Christians because it is a creation ordinance. Thanks BA. For years my family lived as if we believed in the Lord's Day, not working or shopping, focusing on worship and prayer. The Lord used you brother to give me that conviction.

Thank you.

jm

I'm not buying it, sorry.

What you wanted to do was come here with your opinion and wanted to preach your beliefs. That's why you talk of your blog and other writings and how much your theology has helped people. You see it as a feather in your cap.

Now that people are disagreeing with you, you don't have the time to scripturally defend your own beliefs, because your off studying something else?

Maybe you shouldn't be writing about something you cannot even take an hour to defend, IMHO. What you seem to like to do is hop from subject to subject when challenged, but that does not mean your theology is correct or that you are not copying right from other sources, since you can''t explain it.

Buyer beware.

 

[Hawkins]

Here's the big picture;

God's plan, as He gradually reveals to humans, is to build an eternity we call Heaven for His creatures such as the angels and humans living with Him forever. However God hates something which we call sin. God is said to be completely sin incompatible. Law is thus set up to address what a sin is, so that if any entities with freewill chooses to break the Law in a specified period of time then he's disqualified to enter the final Heaven. That's why there's a Final Judgment to legitimately and openly bring those qualified to Heaven. That's when the New Heaven and New earth starts to run.

However under the influence of Satan, the first lineage of humans sinned when put in Eden (a place inside God's realm). Since then humans are driven out of God's realm, living in the current planet earth where Satan is literally said to be the god of this world. When humans are no longer inside God's realm, with Satan's influence being much stronger, no human can thus enter the final heaven by abiding the Law. This point is proven (by God) so it came the story of Noah. God's purpose for humans (to live the eternal Heaven) was defeated. Humans as a whole will fail the final judgment of God's Law. Thus the existence of earth serves no purpose but a pool of sins which God hates. It's thus time to destroy this pool of sins once and for all (by water).

Satan thus triumphs as he has destroyed God's plan of bringing humans to Heaven. But it's not yet. God has Jesus Christ the savior. Through the blood of Jesus Christ God can now grant a series of covenants as a mean of salvation to humans. A covenant simply says, "since you humans can't abide by God's Law in full, you only need to abide by a set-aside set of rules (such as Mosaic Law) to a said standard, such that you will be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ. Each and every covenant serves the main purpose of identifying and thus separating the righteous from the wicked. The righteous thus will be brought to Heaven legitimately under open witnessing (of angels and saints).

Satan (and his angels) on the other hand will stress his influence, humans will thus sin further to an extent that an older covenant may fail in identifying the righteous (the harvest). Then it is time for God to upgrade His covenant to a newer one by granting more Grace, such that His Elect (the righteous) will become savable.

Romans 5:20-21 (NIV2011)
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


The New Covenant brought in directly by Jesus Himself became the final covenant because it has the maximum Grace granted. Under this covenant, our salvation is measured by our faith alone. Faith in Christ becomes the only rule (unlike Mosaic Law) applied for us to be saved. You believe with Faith in a correct fashion then you will be saved (brought to the final Heaven) legitimately and openly.

Whether one can fulfill what a covenant said will be judged by Jesus Christ Himself, because all the Grace is granted under His name. His blood gives Him the right to grant the Grace to anyone He wishes though He will judge fairly and He will judge what is deep inside your heart. The angels and saints will also be the witnesses to see if you have fulfilled the covenant. As for the New Covenant, Jesus will judge if your faith qualifies you to enter the final Heaven.

If you are considered (by Jesus Christ) to fail the covenant, then you will be judged by the Law which will sentence you to death (the second death) with whatever consequences it brings.

 

[Hawkins]

Luke 16:16 (NIV2011)
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

The OT is no longer proclaimed because in effect it no longer saves. It's salvation power will go away eventually (as Paul said in Hebrew 8). Everyone will have to rely on the New Covenant to secure his salvation. However, it by no means says that the old covenant is no longer valid. It only means no one can keep the OT commands to God's satisfaction for a human to be saved this way. "Obsolete and disappear" is said only in the perspective of its salvation effect.

Thus you can continue to observe the commands if you are a Jews. You are actually encouraged to follow the practice and teaching of whichever laws still applicable. As a Jew, you will be considered great if you can observe it the best you can.


Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV2011)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The old covenant is still there. There's not any necessity to abolish it as a covenant, though it no longer has any effect on a human's salvation. In the end, those Jews before John the Baptist will be judged by this covenant. That's why it's still there 'until everything is accomplished'.

If you claim to be a Jew, you can observe whatever you see fit. However, theoretically only the New Covenant can secure your salvation.

 

[BABerean2]

The old covenant is still there. There's not any necessity to abolish it as a covenant, though it no longer has any effect on a human's salvation. In the end, those Jews before John the Baptist will be judged by this covenant. That's why it's still there 'until everything is accomplished'.

Based on Hebrews chapter 11, all of the Old Testament Saints are saved by faith, not keeping the Old Covenant. King David was an adulterer and conspired to have Uriah killed. Therefore, according to the Law, he is doomed. He was saved through faith.

The Old Covenant was fulfilled at the Cross, by the only One who ever kept it. This is what Christ said in Matthew chapter 5. He did not come to destroy the law. He came to fulfill it. This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians chapter 3. The law was "added" 430 years after the promise to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made.

The Old Covenant was accomplished and made "obsolete" at the Cross. (Hebrews 7:12, 8:13)

Salvation comes from Mount Zion, not from Mount Sinai. (Hebrews 12:18-24)

.



.

 

[Hawkins]

A rabbi told me there are "7 commandments for Jews", I can't believe God will have preference for any one group of people? I would think we are all God's children and he will treat us all equally?

It's not about preference. It's all about the validity of witnessing. the Jews were chosen the same way as how the prophets were chosen. The act as a witness of God's deeds and sayings for the purpose of bring forward His salvation plan for all mankind.

 

[Hawkins]

Based on Hebrews chapter 11, all of the Old Testament Saints are saved by faith, not keeping the Old Covenant. King David was an adulterer and conspired to have Uriah killed. Therefore, according to the Law, he is doomed. He was saved through faith.

The Old Covenant was fulfilled at the Cross, by the only One who ever kept it. This is what Christ said in Matthew chapter 5. He did not come to destroy the law. He came to fulfill it. This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians chapter 3. The law was "added" 430 years after the promise to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made.

The Old Covenant was accomplished and made "obsolete" at the Cross. (Hebrews 7:12, 8:13)

Salvation comes from Mount Zion, not from Mount Sinai. (Hebrews 12:18-24)

.



.

it only says that faith is way how Grace is introduced. It by no means say that one (a Jew) doesn't need to abide by the Law to be saved.

A covenant is not an equivalent of Law. Instead, a covenant is composed of faith and law, with the law part keeps decreasing and faith increasing. That's why the New Covenant is the final covenant as its law part has been minimized with faith part maximized.

Romans 5:20-21 (NIV2011)
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Saving by faith alone is unique to the New Covenant and the New Covenant only. If on the other hand, saving by faith alone is what OT is, you don't need a New Covenant.

 

[ToBeLoved]

it only says that faith is way how Grace is introduced. It by no means say that one (a Jew) doesn't need to abide by the Law to be saved.

A covenant is not an equivalent of Law. Instead, a covenant is composed of faith and law, with the law part keeps decreasing and faith increasing. That's why the New Covenant is the final covenant as its law part has been minimized with faith part maximized.

Romans 5:20-21 (NIV2011)
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Saving by faith alone is unique to the New Covenant and the New Covenant only. If on the other hand, saving by faith alone is what OT is, you don't need a New Covenant.

These statements are wrong.

What is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant?

Salvation was imputed to many Old Testament saints because of their faith.