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Differences Concerning Israel and the Church

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by King Crazy, May 4, 2002.

  1. King Crazy

    King Crazy New Member

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    Here is a comparison of dispensational versus historic or classical views as given by Bob and Gretchen Passantino:

    Classic

    God has always had but one spiritual people, represented by the remnant in every generation.

    God's promises to Israel were conditional.

    All earthly promises to Israel have been either fulfilled or invalidated through disobedience and unbelief.

    Israel was a type of the church and was superseded by the church.

    The church was prophesied in the Old Testament, in Old Testament language.

    Christ was, and is, the only Hope of Israel. And Israelites (Jews) will be saved only if they accept him during this age.

    The first advent of Christ completed Israel's redemption, and manifested the Israel of God (the church) referred to in Galatians 6:16.

    Christ instituted a Jewish-Gentile church.

    All unfulfilled spiritual promises to Israel are being fulfilled through the Christian church.

    This does not represent a change in God's plans, but evidences progressive (continually
    unfolding) revelation.

    Dispensational

    God has two bodies -- Israel and the church.

    God's promises to Israel were unconditional, and therefore are still binding.

    God's promises concerning the return to the land, rebuilding the temple, etc., were never fulfilled. They are therefore still future.

    Although Israel was a type of the church, they will always remain separate.

    Christ instituted the church as a "parenthesis."

    Christ came the first time to establish an earthly millennial kingdom with Israel.

    Israel rejected him, then God postponed this plan until the second advent.

    Christ instituted a Gentile church.

    Israel is God's earthly people, the church is God's heavenly people.

    Israel's destiny is to remain on earth forever, the destiny of the church is to spend eternity in heaven.

    source: http://answers.org/theology/dispensationalism.html
     
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  2. coastie

    coastie Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

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    Thanks...

    Do yo have a question? :scratch:
     
  3. King Crazy

    King Crazy New Member

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    Your welcome :)

    I don't have a question, I just wanted to present both sides of this issue.
    The issue is Differences Concerning Israel and the Church and two different interpretations of how they relate to one another in God's plans.
     
  4. Blessed-one

    Blessed-one a long journey ahead

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    interesting.... so if i was an Israelite, i don't get to go to heaven, so where do i go when i die?
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I think in the dispy mindset, Israelites go to hades when they die and will get resurrected at some future date to live back in Israel, on earth, forever.

    I would say that of the 2 views explained above, I subscribe to the "classic" view.

    The OC/Law of Moses was the "parenthesis", the NC/Church is Eternal.

    The Church is the Israel of God, not those Christ rejecting, Gospel denying people who call themselves "Israelites" or "Jews" today. They are a people, on the whole, who are without a covenant with God, no different from the Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, wiccans, New Agers, etc......

    Only those who are part of the Body of Christ, Gods Church, are Gods chosen people today. There is no "back door", or "grandfather clause" to salvation.

    JMHO on the matter
    P70
     
  6. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    What will come of God's first chosen children?

    Romans 11:11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
    13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
    17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
    22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
    25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    "The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins."

    28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

    I do not believe any Christian would want this statement to be untrue. I am hearing you say... But they have sinned and are no longer worthy of God gifts. My friend...then neither are you! No one would enter heaven on his own merit. So there go you also... but by the Grace of God. Do not condemn the Jews... but be thankful that God has extended his mercy to you.

    :) LOVE
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Romans 9:6
    Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

    Romans 2:29
    But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Galatians 6:15-16
    15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    Rev. 11:8"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified".


    This last verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. When we say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable when we say the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

    And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this means that Paul's indictment against Jews must remain intact to this very day!, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men. ...They always fill up the measure of their sins" (I Thess. 2:14-16).

    All people who call themselves Jews today are left wide open to being automatically viewed with special suspicion by Christians, in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," and on the other hand they must remain a blood-guilty race of enemies who are opposed to all men, and whose Metropolis of Jerusalem is considered by God to be the spiritual equivalent of "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled.

    :bow:
     
  8. davo

    davo Member

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    Those of "faith" HAVE been brought into the "commonwealth of Israel" -once not a people, nation nor chosen but NOW in Christ ALL those things. Ethnicity is no longer a prerequisite, nor is it a barrier -the scriptures are clear, ALL things are new in Christ, for where there is a change in the law there is also a change in priesthood. :clap:

    davo
     
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    True Israel was John the Baptist, Mary, Joseph, Jesus, Elisabeth, the 12, the 70, the 3000 at Pentecost, and the great many jews that first rejected but later accepted Jesus Christ. These Jews are true Israel. They later went out and began to preach to gentiles that they might be included into the Nation and receive Abraham's blessing of Genesis 12:1-3, which is an eternal promise fulfilled to Christ's Nation.

    All who go to their graves as Christ-rejectors are not "The Chosen." This includes both jews and gentiles for the past 20 centuries. Any jew that goes to his or her grave rejecting Jesus Christ is NOT among the "The Chosen" and never was. St. John lays it out very clearly for us: those that reject Jesus have rejected Jehovah (1 Jn 2:23; John 15:23-24; John 5:22-23). This is true for the Jew as it also is now true for the gentile. Those without Jehovah are godless. Those who are without Jesus are godless. Jews that reject Jesus are godless in the same sense as every other heathen on our planet. These are without covenant relations with God.
     
  10. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    I really don't know what all the fuss is.

    As the Apostle Paul said in Romans 11:25.

    25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
    "The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    Romans 11:25-26.

    Please note that Paul is talking about the "physical" Israel- ie the biological descendents from Abraham and not the "spiritual" Israel - ie Christians of whatever race, creed etc..

    God has a special plan for the Jews - the biological descendents of Abraham. He has made it very clear in the Old Testament and New Testament.

    In fact the Salvation plan was firstly for... as Paul says it in Romans 1:16

    "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile." Romans 1:16

    Does that mean all Jews are special in God's eyes? Yes.

    Does that mean that any Jew that rejects Jesus is going to escape God's judgement? NO. He shares the same fate as anyone else.

    Does Jesus crucification, death on the cross, and return mean that God's plan for the Jews is now null and void and completely worthless. NO.

    I really don't understand how anyone can take God's plan to legitimize a scheme to persecute the Jews.

    Does that mean we abandon all our mission efforts around the world and focus only on Israel. NO NO NO. Look at what Paul did. He wished he was cursed if only his people could believe. Yet he went forth among the Gentiles to preach the gospel to them.
     
  11. davo

    davo Member

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    This is so true -the "special plan" for the Abrahams descentdants which was to include the Gentiles is "The Church" One New People, no fuss :clap:

    davo
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hi Yauming.

    Paul argues for a re-constitution of the Nation of Israel based upon the 1st century followers of Jesus. The followers of Jesus claimed that THEY were true Israel and not their unbelieving kin (Gal 6:15-16; Phil 3:3; 1 Peter 2:9, etc).

    Paul points out that jews that are not "circumcised of Heart" are actually to be recognized as heathen (Romans 2:25-29) and that gentiles who were displaying circumcision of the heart are counted as "circumcision" (jewish).

    Paul goes on to point out that "They are not all Israel who are OF Israel; nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham" (Romans 9:6-7). So you must not forget to account for these jews/sons of Abraham that Paul does NOT consider special at all. In fact, these jewish sons of Abraham are not actually "ISRAEL" even though they are "OF" Israel. They are fully disinherited as also described in Galatians 4:24-31.

    Finally, Paul is arguing that a blindness came over memebers of Israel so that the gentiles could join into the true Israel. The result is: "AND SO (i.e. in this way) ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED." Paul argued all along for a defining of Israel that excludes unbelieving natural-born sons of Abraham and includes believing non-genetic sons of Abraham.

    This re-constitution of Israel under Jesus Christ happened in the 1st century and forced the cutting off of the unbelieving jews from among the People of God (as Moses had foretold -- Acts 3:22-24). Jews that reject Jesus hate Jehovah too (John 15:23-24; 1 John 2:23). They are heathen in the exact same way as all other pagan peoples of the earth.

    The inclusion of the gentiles into Christ's fullness happened during the ministry of the apostle Paul whose ministry alone was responsible for making the gentiles joint heirs and sons of Abraham along with the genetic sons of faith (Eph 3:1-13). We that are gentiles have received the fullness -- we have obtained sonship and are full sons and co-heirs. That happened 19 centuries ago.
     
  13. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    Hello GW,

    I don't want to argue with you. Just read Romans 11

    And the Apostle Paul said.....

    1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. .....

    Verse 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

    The Jews have rejected God so many times. He left them, rejected them, got angry at them, refused to hear their prayers, but in the end God ALWAYS came back for them. If He didn't, they wouldn't be here today.
     
  14. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Christian
    The jews that you say are "here today" aren't the jews of the bible times.

    Furthermore, Paul was not saying what you think he was. I know you don't wish to discuss it but when you read Romans as one letter you realize that Paul is arguing for an understanding of jews and Israel that is based on faith in Christ. This is why he says the circumcised Israelites are actually heathen without Christ and why uncircumcised gentiles are actually sons of Abraham with Christ. You seem to be totally ignoring this. Paul would not look at political Israel today and call them Israel. It's that important that you account for Paul's argument which starts in Romans 2 and then picks up in chs. 9-11.

    Paul was one of those jews who was blinded but was grafted back in via CONVERSION to Christ and his true Nation of Israel. Paul was not speaking of some far distant time and place.

    The only requirement of God's blinding was that the gentiles would be brought into the true faith as co-heirs with the Jews in Abraham's blessing. This was accomplished in the 1st century.
     
  15. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    368
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    Romans 11:13
    And Paul said.....

    I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
    Romans 11:13 - 14



    I suggest you read it again. Paul was talking about "his" people - the biological descendents of Abraham - not the spirtual/faith ones.
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Correct. The blinded portion of the remnant would convert to Jesus just like Paul. But Paul does not at all mean all jews are included in Israel.

    Read this again. Paul was talking about his people - the biological descendents of Abraham:


    Romans 9:3-4, 6-8
    I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites...BUT, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants...it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.



    Paul clearly sees some portion of biological descendents of Abraham and Israel as not to be counted as part of Israel. He goes on to explain by citing Isaiah's famous quote that only a small portion of the whole of Abraham's biological kids are really Israel:


    Rom 9:27
    Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED


    God only ever had a small remnant of the whole of Abraham's sons who he counted as his Chosen. So it was in the first century. Paul was one of the remnant (true Israel) who had been blinded but CONVERTED to Christ. The reason part of TRUE Israel was blinded at first was so the gospel would be forced to go beyond Israel and be preached to the gentiles. Once God performed this the purpose of the blinding was over and the blinded jews kept converting to Jesus.

    Paul's point is that the ones that don't come out of blindness are not Israel, nor were such faithless sons EVER counted by God as sons. Jesus shows how this works when he tells some Jews that they were NOT of Abraham nor sons of God (John 8:39-47). There are many other examples like this one in John 8:39-47.

    Today's political state of Israel is NOT the Israel of the bible whatsoever.
     
  17. Noa

    Noa Member

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    The most saddest thing of all is the fact that there are some christians who want to take the place of Israël and call themselves ´spiritual Israël´. Overhere, in the Netherlands, whe call this fenoma(free translation) the replacement-theory: The Jews and the Israëli´s belongs to G´ds nation. Hell no!
    Christians should be happy and gratefull to Yeshua they are sharing the mercy and eternal life with the Jews (I´m!). But not as a nation. I always say: the Jews and the Israëli´s are the sand of Abraham and the christians are the stars. What is so bad to be a star IN Christ? :cry:
     
  18. Martin

    Martin Senior Veteran

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    I agree with you Noa... :)

    Where we read Israel in the Bible, it means Israel, and where we read the Church in the Bible, it means the Church. The Church does not replace Israel.

    Study of the Word reveals that all the promises made to Israel are now available to Gentiles through the atoning death of Yeshua/Jesus...with one exception - the promise of the land, which is for Israel and not for Gentile believers.

    Thank the Lord that both Jews and Gentiles are now one in Him!! :bow:
     
  19. Noa

    Noa Member

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    Amen! :bow:
     
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