Differences between the sexes in marriage and the church

[Jesus is YHWH]

This is controversial but its biblical when done Gods way and not lording ones role over others.

Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Genesis 3:13
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" "The serpent deceived me," she replied, "and I ate."

2 Corinthians 11:3
I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.

1 Timothy 2:14
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression

1 Timothy 2:11-15
A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer. 15 But women will be preserved through childbirth—if they continue in faith, love, and sanctity, with moderation.

2 Corinthians 11:2-4
I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Strongs
hupotassó: to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey
Original Word: ὑποτάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupotassó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ot-as'-so)
Definition: to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey
Usage: I place under, subject to; mid, pass: I submit, put myself into subjection.

Thayers Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5293: ὑποτάσσω
ὑποτάσσω: 1 aorist ὑπεταξα; passive, perfect ὑποτεταγμαι; 2 aorist ὑπεταγην; 2 future ὑποταγήσομαι; present middle ὑποτάσσομαι; to arrange under, to subordinate; to subject, put in subjection: to subject oneself, to obey; to submit to one's control; to yield to one's admonition or advice: absolutely,


Gods design for the family, marriage and the church.

Ephesians 5:23-24
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Colossians 3:!8
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Peter 3:1-2
Wives, in the same way, submit yourselves to your husbands, so that even if they refuse to believe the word, they will be won over without words by the behavior of their wives as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Genesis 3:16
Then he said to the woman, “I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.”


As we see even Christ is under God the Father, the church under Christ, the woman under the man. In the church and the family just as in the Trinity there are different roles/functions that are assigned to each member which involves submission, a subservient role and authoritative roles.

hope this helps !!!

 

[com7fy8]

And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression.

It is pretty spelled-out, here, that Adam was not deceived, but it was Eve who was deceived.

Even so, Adam did go along with Eve.

And Paul elsewhere says this >

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned---(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)" (Romans 5:12-17)

So . . . yes, Paul says Eve was deceived, but he does not say sin entered the world through her, but "through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned".

And our Apostle Paul says, "death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam".

So, Paul is not just criticizing Eve, I can see. He does say she was deceived, yes, but he also says death has entered the world because of "the transgression of Adam".

And yet, even though Adam is the one to be blamed for all the death in the world, God's word says for wives to be subject to their own husbands. Because the man is the woman's "head" (Ephesians 5:23, 1 Corinthians 11:3).

And the woman was not taken from Adam's head, but ones say she was made from near his heart.

Now which way can you have more real loving intimacy . . . by having the same level of heads and same position and thinking and perspective, or by sharing in your hearts, with the same desires? I see how God can mean for a woman to be able to relate to a man's heart, below the head stuff.

You might consider how Abigail handled David when David was obviously getting himself into a major problem. She was very attractive, but she did not use charm and pushing those buttons, to influence him out of making a major error which could have ruined how he could be as the king of Israel. She did not try to debate with how he was seeing things and planning things. But she was subject . . . below the head level, where she could relate with him in his heart, and really help him.

1 Samuel 25

 

[bèlla]

I’m all for hupotassó. But if we’re going to address the subject fairly; you can’t ignore the fact that some resist the truth to diminish responsibility.

The discussion begins with Adam. Men should be held accountable for upholding the biblical perspective you’ve presented. The focus usually falls on women and their shortcomings. That’s errant. Men are slacking too.

Let’s start at the helm.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I’m all for hupotassó. But if we’re going to address the subject fairly; you can’t ignore the fact that some resist the truth to diminish responsibility.

The discussion begins with Adam. Men should be held accountable for upholding the biblical perspective you’ve presented. The focus usually falls on women and their shortcomings. That’s errant. Men are slacking too.

Let’s start at the helm.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

I agree 100 %. I always tell my male friends with marital issues are you loving your wife like Christ loved the church ?

You can hear the silence and the crickets chirping,

I always put the responsibility on the husband to love as Jesus loves. I don't know of any woman who would not desire nor want to serve a man who sacrifices his life for her good and well being on not his own.

 

[bèlla]

I agree 100 %. I always tell my male friends with marital issues are you loving your wife like Christ loved the church ?

You can hear the silence and the crickets chirping,

No one wants to submit to mishandling. Responsible leaders are honest about their strengths and weaknesses and seek input in areas where they’re lacking. Downplaying inexperience and knowledge are the number one issues I’ve encountered. It erodes trust and surrender.

I always put the responsibility on the husband to love as Jesus loves. I don't know of any woman who would not desire nor want to serve a man who sacrifices his life for her good and well being on not his own.

Women have an uncanny ability to see potential and provide emotional support and encouragement. But we’re a team. Unilateral mindsets are contrary to the oneness the Lord espouses. It’s not about ego or a desire to feel important. The closer the pair remains with God; the easier submission becomes. They’re mutually yielded.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

No one wants to submit to mishandling. Responsible leaders are honest about their strengths and weaknesses and seek input in areas where they’re lacking. Downplaying inexperience and knowledge are the number one issues I’ve encountered. It erodes trust and surrender.



Women have an uncanny ability to see potential and provide emotional support and encouragement. But we’re a team. Unilateral mindsets are contrary to the oneness the Lord espouses. It’s not about ego or a desire to feel important. The closer the pair remains with God; the easier submission becomes. They’re mutually yielded.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

Agreed I married one

been together since 77 and it keeps getting better with age like a fine wine

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

I think to make it less “controversial” it would help to look at what the letter says. “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands.”

Now, nearly two thousands of years later, this is a text that is taught and used in sermons and lectures and debates and so often framed as what “the Bible says” in impersonal terms.

But the early church wasn’t reading this letter to say “the Bible says” but rather they were reading a letter from Paul, the apostle, who was instructing his people in the Christian life. It was personal, and women were included. Rather than an instruction to the husbands to teach their wives to submit, it was an instruction to the wives, from a man who was not only a learned and studied man, but an anointed apostle, and he was talking directly to them.

So many of Paul’s teachings are about denying the self and putting others before us. The beauty of this text is that the wives, who in the Greco-Roman world would have been considered separate and perpetually inferior, were being taught directly from the pen of the Apostle, and knowing that their lives mattered enough for there to be a section specifically written to them.

In that context, telling wives to submit to husbands is no more controversial than telling the entire congregation to submit one to another, and in fact it’s a marker that women were seen inclusively rather than excluded as they were in most other areas of Greco-Roman public life.

Now, living it is by the grace of God and the inner transformation of the spirit, but knowing we were seen, noticed, cared for, in a world which did not, is something that matters a lot.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I think to make it less “controversial” it would help to look at what the letter says. “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands.”

Now, nearly two thousands of years later, this is a text that is taught and used in sermons and lectures and debates and so often framed as what “the Bible says” in impersonal terms.

But the early church wasn’t reading this letter to say “the Bible says” but rather they were reading a letter from Paul, the apostle, who was instructing his people in the Christian life. It was personal, and women were included. Rather than an instruction to the husbands to teach their wives to submit, it was an instruction to the wives, from a man who was not only a learned and studied man, but an anointed apostle, and he was talking directly to them.

So many of Paul’s teachings are about denying the self and putting others before us. The beauty of this text is that the wives, who in the Greco-Roman world would have been considered separate and perpetually inferior, were being taught directly from the pen of the Apostle, and knowing that their lives mattered enough for there to be a section specifically written to them.

In that context, telling wives to submit to husbands is no more controversial than telling the entire congregation to submit one to another, and in fact it’s a marker that women were seen inclusively rather than excluded as they were in most other areas of Greco-Roman public life.

Now, living it is by the grace of God and the inner transformation of the spirit, but knowing we were seen, noticed, cared for, in a world which did not, is something that matters a lot.

Excellent post filled with insight !

 

[James Honigman]

Your post would have been gladly received 2,000 years ago. Today, not so much.

 

[Paidiske]

As we see even Christ is under God the Father... in the Trinity there are different roles/functions that are assigned to each member which involves submission, a subservient role and authoritative roles.

This is the heresy of subordinationism.

The orthodox understanding - as set forth in the Athanasian Creed - is this: "And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal."

If you want to use the Trinity as a model for human relationships, that is the model which is relevant.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

This is the heresy of subordinationism.

The orthodox understanding - as set forth in the Athanasian Creed - is this: "And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal."

If you want to use the Trinity as a model for human relationships, that is the model which is relevant.

Its called Scripture


1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Roles and nature are not the same thing.

My wife is co-equal with me as a human we have different roles.

The Son is co-equal with the Father in His Divine Nature/Attributes with different roles.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Marc Perry]

This is controversial but its biblical when done Gods way and not lording ones role over others.

Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Genesis 3:13
Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" "The serpent deceived me," she replied, "and I ate."

2 Corinthians 11:3
I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.

1 Timothy 2:14
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression

1 Timothy 2:11-15
A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer. 15 But women will be preserved through childbirth—if they continue in faith, love, and sanctity, with moderation.

2 Corinthians 11:2-4
I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Strongs
hupotassó: to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey
Original Word: ὑποτάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupotassó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ot-as'-so)
Definition: to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to obey
Usage: I place under, subject to; mid, pass: I submit, put myself into subjection.

Thayers Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5293: ὑποτάσσω
ὑποτάσσω: 1 aorist ὑπεταξα; passive, perfect ὑποτεταγμαι; 2 aorist ὑπεταγην; 2 future ὑποταγήσομαι; present middle ὑποτάσσομαι; to arrange under, to subordinate; to subject, put in subjection: to subject oneself, to obey; to submit to one's control; to yield to one's admonition or advice: absolutely,


Gods design for the family, marriage and the church.

Ephesians 5:23-24
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Colossians 3:!8
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Peter 3:1-2
Wives, in the same way, submit yourselves to your husbands, so that even if they refuse to believe the word, they will be won over without words by the behavior of their wives as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Genesis 3:16
Then he said to the woman, “I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.”


As we see even Christ is under God the Father, the church under Christ, the woman under the man. In the church and the family just as in the Trinity there are different roles/functions that are assigned to each member which involves submission, a subservient role and authoritative roles.

hope this helps !!!

You are constantly posting on this forum. And, no. It does not help. Do you really disagree that women should be treated equally? And do you think that God is limited to an age of humanity?

No, it does not help.

 

[mlepfitjw]

You are constantly posting on this forum. And, no. It does not help. Do you really disagree that women should be treated equally? And do you think that God is limited to an age of humanity?

No, it does not help.

marc you remind me of myself and my first run ins with jesusisyhw. Hope you feeling better brother whenever you get back on God bless you friend. Is there any type of topic you wanna post please make some friend.

 

[Dkh587]

I’ve always wondered, how was Chawah(Eve) deceived, yet Adam was not when he ate the fruit also?

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

I’ve always wondered, how was Chawah(Eve) deceived, yet Adam was not when he ate the fruit also?

One difference is that the serpent intended to deceive Eve but she didn’t intend to deceive Adam.

Eve was presented with someone deceiving her and became corrupted, Adam was presented with someone who had been corrupted and became corrupted himself. A difference between discerning objective truth from falsehood compared to discerning sincerity from deception.

Also while the letter to Timothy does talk about human men and women, the letter to the Corinthians that was quoted was talking about both men and women in the church. In this, it isn’t female Christians compared to Eve but rather the entire Bride of Christ, as allegory complementary to the expression of Jesus Christ as the last Adam:

Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! (2 Corinthians 11:1-4, NKJV)

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You are constantly posting on this forum. And, no. It does not help. Do you really disagree that women should be treated equally? And do you think that God is limited to an age of humanity?

No, it does not help.

I see your opinions do you care to discuss any of the scriptures in the OP ?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

This is the heresy of subordinationism.

The orthodox understanding - as set forth in the Athanasian Creed - is this: "And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal."

If you want to use the Trinity as a model for human relationships, that is the model which is relevant.

co-equal does not have anything to do with roles. and no the Creed does not disagree with the OP.

nice strawman.

 

[Paidiske]

co-equal does not have anything to do with roles.

It does when the position being put forward is that the person in one role is subject to a person in another role.

and no the Creed does not disagree with the OP.

The OP is putting forward a subordinationist view of God, and the Athanasian Creed clearly rules that out.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It does when the position being put forward is that the person in one role is subject to a person in another role.



The OP is putting forward a subordinationist view of God, and the Athanasian Creed clearly rules that out.

You need to read your bible more carefully and believe these Scriptures.

Have you studied the Trinity or just believe what others have taught you ?

And the you are misinterpreting the Creeds meaning of co-equal. Co-Equal meaing they share the same Divine Attributes. Roles have nothing to do with the Divine Nature of God. Just as roles have anything to do with equality of men and women as humans. They are equal as human beings with different roles or functions within their relationship.

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will."

John 10:29
My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father's hand.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1 Corinthians 3:23
And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Paidiske]

And the you are misinterpreting the Creeds meaning of co-equal. Co-Equal meaing they share the same Divine Attributes. Roles have nothing to do with the Divine Nature of God. Just as roles have anything to do with equality of men and women as humans. They are equal as human beings with different roles or functions within their relationship.

If we are equal in our very being, then being forced to inhabit unequal roles distorts that fundamental equality. And those roles are unequal when one attempts to control the other.