Differences Between The Catholic Church & The Lutheran Church

[Second Coming]

I am LCMS but I am also a confirmed Catholic. I have been attending the Lutheran Church for the past seven years. I have been considering returning to the Catholic Church lately. I would like to discuss in this thread what are the differences between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church?

 

[Halbhh]

I am LCMS but I am also a confirmed Catholic. I have been attending the Lutheran Church for the past seven years. I have been considering returning to the Catholic Church lately. I would like to discuss in this thread what are the differences between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church?

Not that many years ago, a joint group of Lutherans and Catholics found a joint agreement about justification.

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ) is a document created, and agreed to, by the Catholic Church's Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) and the Lutheran World Federation in 1999 ...
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification - Wikipedia

Which had been the single most important way Catholic and Lutherans had divided long ago (though other important issues also existed, this one was the most important).

There are some other important differences, but this was the big one, because it's about how we are saved.

I know that if you took random groups of Catholics and Lutherans, you'd find a range of viewpoints in each group, with a lot of overlap -- both churches have a range of those more on this side or that about similar questions, both have 'conservatives' that are more alike to those in the other church than their own, etc. -- and also that a significant number of Lutherans (most even) would fit perfectly well in most Catholic churches, and plenty of Catholics (most even) would fit perfectly well in most Lutheran churches.

 

[tampasteve]

Welcome! I am ELCA but former Catholic. Some of the main differences you will be familiar with. Lutherans do not pray to saints, believe in the Real Presence but not in the same way as Catholic, do not believe in the papacy, and LCMS do not have an episcopal church structure or apostolic succession. There are more in depth theological and superficial differences, however they have lessened somewhat over the years as Rome has moved away from many of the medieval practices that were partially the cause of the Reformation as it was.

You will hear things like "Catholics believe in works salvation" but that is not entirely true to the Catholic theology. Overall there is much overlap in beliefs, but still some ground to cover if there ever is to be a common communion between the churches.

Both churches believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Here is a pretty good overview from a Catholic source (bustedhalo):
What’s the Difference Between the Catholic and Lutheran Belief in Communion?

Crash Course History does a good (and entertaining) overview of Martin Luther and the Reformation:

This is from the LCMS website:

QUESTION: What are the main theological differences between the theology of the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church?

ANSWER: At the risk of oversimplification, and keeping in mind that individual Lutheran (and Catholic) theologians would undoubtedly disagree about the success of recent Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogues in lessening or even "resolving" historic doctrinal differences between these two churches, listed below are what the LCMS would regard as some of the major theological differences between the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church:

1. The authority of Scripture.
Lutherans believe Scripture alone has authority to determine doctrine; the Roman Catholic Church gives this authority also to the pope, the church, and certain traditions of the church.

2. The doctrine of justification.
Lutherans believe a person is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church, while at times using similar language, still officially holds that faith, in order to save, must be accompanied by (or "infused with") some "work" or "love" active within a Christian.

3. The authority of the pope.
Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, Lutherans do not believe the office of the papacy as such has any divine authority or that Christians need to submit to the Pope's authority to be "true" members of the visible church.

4. Differences remain about both the number and the nature of the sacraments.
Roman Catholics speak of seven Sacraments while Lutherans tend to speak of only two (or three). More important than number is how the Sacraments are understood.

To take a single example, Lutherans believe that in the Sacrament of the Altar (Communion) Christ’s body and blood are truly present in the bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper, but they do not accept the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, which teaches that the elements are permanently changed from the substances of bread and wine to the substances of body and blood.

Transubstantiation is rejected for several reasons: It is a philosophical explanation for a work of Christ’s almighty Word which we can only believe, not explain. In seeking to explain a mystery it changes the plain and simple meanings of God’s Word (Scripture refers to the elements as both bread and wine and body and blood, 1 Cor. 11:26-27).

Transubstantiation leads to the assertion that the body and blood of Christ remain present “even apart from the administration of the Supper” and so encourages veneration of the elements apart from their sacramental use and detracts from the use Christ commands: “Take eat … drink … for the forgiveness of your sins.” Lutheran rejection of transubstantiation should not in any way be taken to mean a denial that Christ’s very body and blood are truly present in the bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper for the forgiveness of sins.

5. Differences remain about the role of Mary and the saints.
Unlike Catholics, Lutherans do not believe it is proper or scriptural to offer prayers to saints or to view Mary as in any sense a "mediator" between God and human beings.

While Lutherans believe any doctrinal error has the potential to distort or deny Scripture's teaching regarding salvation, we also believe that anyone (regardless of denominational affiliation) who truly believes in Jesus Christ as Savior will be saved.

 

[Halbhh]

2. The doctrine of justification.
Lutherans believe a person is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church, while at times using similar language, still officially holds that faith, in order to save, must be accompanied by (or "infused with") some "work" or "love" active within a Christian.

Of course, as you also know, Lutherans don't believe a saved person never shows evidence of their faith in works. So, it's been signficantly in recent years about clarity in language, and ways of speaking, saying the same thing but in different ways. If one persons says A+B and another person says D+C, and later we all finally agree that B=D, and A=C, then it turns out they were both essentially saying the same thing, though it is possible to think we aren't for quite a while.

It's possible to try to phrase anything to make it sound in opposition.

If that is the goal of someone -- trying to make something sound in a disagreement.

But the interesting and better way is to try to learn precisely what each side really is saying, and what it really means, and I think that's how the working groups agreed on Justification, fully, and make their joint declaration -- by figuring out precisely what each side really meant, more fully.

 

[tampasteve]

Of course, as you also know, Lutherans don't believe a saved person never shows evidence of their faith in works. So, it's been signficantly in recent years about clarity in language, and ways of speaking, saying the same thing but in different ways. If one persons says A+B and another person says D+C, and later we all finally agree that B=D, and A=C, then it turns out they were both essentially saying the same thing, though it is possible to think we aren't for quite a while.

It's possible to try to phrase anything to make it sound in opposition.

If that is the goal of someone -- trying to make something sound in a disagreement.

But the interesting and better way is to try to learn precisely what each side really is saying, and what it really means, and I think that's how the working groups agreed on Justification, fully, and make their joint declaration -- by figuring out precisely what each side really meant, more fully.

I agree 100%, which is why I prefaced that part in my post above the quote from the LCMS where I said "You will hear things like "Catholics believe in works salvation" but that is not entirely true to the Catholic theology." As an aside, LCMS are not exactly fond of trying to find the middle ground with Catholics or other Protestants, this is one reason I am ELCA.

 

[Halbhh]

Good point Steve!

I suppose that really...I don't fully accept that LCMS and ELCA are...apart from each other in a valid way.

Instead, they are Lutheran, or better Christian. I mean that where I disagree in my own local congregation with someone about issue X, I simply am ok that they think differently, and am curious to understand what they really think and why, in more depth and completeness.

I know that in an LCMS congregation will be plenty that would perfectly well like being in an ELCA congregation. And some in the ELCA that would be perfectly comfortable in the LCMS. Some of my good friends in our own church I think would, and I love them. And some of my other good friends in my own church would go the other way. And best of all, these 2 sides have a lot of love between them in our congregation, and little or no discord. Praise God for that!

 

[tampasteve]

Good point Steve!

I suppose that really...I don't fully accept that LCMS and ELCA are...apart from each other in a valid way.

Instead, they are Lutheran, or better Christian. I mean that where I disagree in my own local congregation with someone about issue X, I simply am ok that they think differently, and am curious to understand what they really think and why, in more depth and completeness.

I know that in an LCMS congregation will be plenty that would perfectly well like being in an ELCA congregation. And some in the ELCA that would be perfectly comfortable in the LCMS. Some of my good friends in our own church I think would, and I love them. And some of my other good friends in my own church would go the other way. And best of all, these 2 sides have a lot of love between them in our congregation, and little or no discord. Praise God for that!

Very valid points! It is often the case in all denominations that the actual congregations and Christians in them might not be as hard line as the head organization makes it seem. In reality there is much in common between ELCA and LCMS than we often focus on.

 

[Hieronymus]

Roman Catholicism is Christian to the flock, but there are reasons to believe that's it's increasingly different for the clergy the higher up in the hierarchy you end up.
But some things trickle down to the flock too.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I am LCMS but I am also a confirmed Catholic. I have been attending the Lutheran Church for the past seven years. I have been considering returning to the Catholic Church lately. I would like to discuss in this thread what are the differences between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church?

Church of Rome holds to the papacy, that they are the one true Church instituted by Jesus, Apostolic succession, and one gets saved by partaking of all 7 Sacraments of Grace, and that we go to purgatory if not graced enough at time of death. Catholic add extra biblical books to their canon of scriptures, and see tradition equal to written scriptures.
Lutherans holds to saved by Grace thru faith, but so see infant baptism as the time God washed away original sin, and renewed them , while the Catholics see that at time of infant Baptism, but later on confirmed as true in First Communion.

 

[Halbhh]

Church of Rome holds to the papacy, that they are the one true Church instituted by Jesus, Apostolic succession, and one gets saved by partaking of all 7 Sacraments of Grace, and that we go to purgatory if not graced enough at time of death. Catholic add extra biblical books to their canon of scriptures, and see tradition equal to written scriptures.
Lutherans holds to saved by Grace thru faith, but so see infant baptism as the time God washed away original sin, and renewed them , while the Catholics see that at time of infant Baptism, but later on confirmed as true in First Communion.

That's pretty useful in some ways but we naturally overemphasize in order to distinguish, and most people in the congregations don't agree that those differences are........solid (unlike some that know more docrines or emphasize them, on the internet), or....how should I say it: they have an attitude that we human beings cannot have the perfect knowledge (not even in a convention of bishops) to know all such things perfectly (yes, I'm very aware there will be plenty to say the opposite of that over the internet!). And that lack of certain knowledge of these sometimes esoteric things is entirely ok.
(there's a song about this , and I'll find it and put it further below)

Because He saves us in spite of our lack of such esoteric knowledge. (in spite of what we get wrong, that is)

In other words, I don't have to know precisely all the authorities given to Mary, but I can simply love her. Mary is surely loved and respected generally in churches of all kinds, of course. We consider how amazing it would be to raise the Christ, to be around Him so much, the affect, the outcome!


-------
What we really need to know for sure, we do --

 

[YeshuaFan]

That's pretty useful in some ways but we naturally overemphasize in order to distinguish, and most people in the congregations don't agree that those differences are........solid (unlike some that know more docrines or emphasize them, on the internet), or....how should I say it: they have an attitude that we human beings cannot have the perfect knowledge (not even in a convention of bishops) to know all such things perfectly (yes, I'm very aware there will be plenty to say the opposite of that over the internet!). And that lack of certain knowledge of these sometimes esoteric things is entirely ok.
(there's a song about this , and I'll find it and put it further below)

Because He saves us in spite of our lack of such esoteric knowledge. (in spite of what we get wrong, that is)

In other words, I don't have to know precisely all the authorities given to Mary, but I can simply love her. Mary is surely loved and respected generally in churches of all kinds, of course. We consider how amazing it would be to raise the Christ, to be around Him so much, the affect, the outcome!


-------
What we really need to know for sure, we do --

I am a reformed Baptist, so was just trying to give the general beliefs for each church!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Former Catholic now LCMS here....

I don't usually post here anymore (I've moved to a different discussion forum) but as briefly as I can...


1. I see the major "differences" between confessional/traditional Lutheranism and Catholicism as:

A) Ecclesiology. Lutherans embrace the church catholic whereas the RCC places enormous emphasis on itself as "the church" in the full sense. The RCC has enormous, foundational emphasis on it itself. This makes enormous difference. Lutherans embrace Tradition but it's historic, ecumenical Tradition not simply whatever one denomination now holds.

B) Epistemology. Lutherans approach theology with humility and accept a rich sense of mystery. Catholicism is far more likely to theorize and to make such into dogma. Lutherans accept accountability (in theory anyway, LOL) whereas Catholicism is based on a powerful sense that it itself alone is THE Authority and ultimately unaccountable. Some think this is what actually was at the heart of the 16th Century dispute rather than the issue of Justification that the RCC claimed was so at the time.

C) Dogmatization. There are Catholics (including me at the time) who see Lutherans as "Catholic Light" or perhaps as a simplier, more ancient form of Catholicism. There is SOME truth in this..... Lutherans often aren't as concerned with a unque RCC view as it is with the dogmatiztion of such. Many Lutherans, for example, have a rich Marian devotion but don't insists that all the current RCC Marian views are DOGMA.

E) The "Catholic Light" doesn't really work because there are several interrelated things important to understanding Lutheranism. I won't post HERE to get into these, but they are critical: They include - 1) The Law/Gospel Distinction, 2) Theology of the Cross vs. Theology of Glory (this is probably the single issue that caused me to move from Catholicism to Lutheranism), 3) Monergism. Lutherans hold that Justification (narrow or "initial") is entirely, wholly God's gift and not a cooperative, synergistic process. Lutherans are passionately anti-Pelagianism. I personally believe Catholicism and Lutheranism are much closer on Justification than most think, but Lutherans are hyper-sensitive to anything that remotely can be understood as synergistic or semi-Pelagian because it underminds the foundation: Jesus is THE Savior (not just helper or possibility-maker or door-opener).


2. I can't understand how a conservative Catholic could ever join the ELCA, with it's liberal theology, it's ordaining of women and gays, same-gender marriage, rather pro-abortion sympathy, etc. The LCMS shares the morality and life of Catholicism. The ELCA and Epistcoplians may at times LOOK more "Catholic" but are alternatives ONLY for the very liberal Catholic who is leaving the RCC because of it's stance on divorce, abortion, same-gender marriage, etc. and because the theology is too old fashioned.


Well, I'd be pleased to discuss all this (and more on this) much further but I'm just not here at this website very much, I've moved elsewhere.


Blessings!


- Josiah

 

[YeshuaFan]

Former Catholic now LCMS here....

I don't usually post here anymore (I've moved to a different discussion forum) but as briefly as I can...


1. I see the major "differences" between confessional/traditional Lutheranism and Catholicism as:

A) Ecclesiology. Lutherans embrace the church catholic whereas the RCC places enormous emphasis on itself as "the church" in the full sense. The RCC has enormous, foundational emphasis on it itself. This makes enormous difference. Lutherans embrace Tradition but it's historic, ecumenical Tradition not simply whatever one denomination now holds.

B) Epistemology. Lutherans approach theology with humility and accept a rich sense of mystery. Catholicism is far more likely to theorize and to make such into dogma. Lutherans accept accountability (in theory anyway, LOL) whereas Catholicism is based on a powerful sense that it itself alone is THE Authority and ultimately unaccountable. Some think this is what actually was at the heart of the 16th Century dispute rather than the issue of Justification that the RCC claimed was so at the time.

C) Dogmatization. There are Catholics (including me at the time) who see Lutherans as "Catholic Light" or perhaps as a simplier, more ancient form of Catholicism. There is SOME truth in this..... Lutherans often aren't as concerned with a unque RCC view as it is with the dogmatiztion of such. Many Lutherans, for example, have a rich Marian devotion but don't insists that all the current RCC Marian views are DOGMA.

E) The "Catholic Light" doesn't really work because there are several interrelated things important to understanding Lutheranism. I won't post HERE to get into these, but they are critical: They include - 1) The Law/Gospel Distinction, 2) Theology of the Cross vs. Theology of Glory (this is probably the single issue that caused me to move from Catholicism to Lutheranism), 3) Monergism. Lutherans hold that Justification (narrow or "initial") is entirely, wholly God's gift and not a cooperative, synergistic process. Lutherans are passionately anti-Pelagianism. I personally believe Catholicism and Lutheranism are much closer on Justification than most think, but Lutherans are hyper-sensitive to anything that remotely can be understood as synergistic or semi-Pelagian because it underminds the foundation: Jesus is THE Savior (not just helper or possibility-maker or door-opener).


2. I can't understand how a conservative Catholic could ever join the ELCA, with it's liberal theology, it's ordaining of women and gays, same-gender marriage, rather pro-abortion sympathy, etc. The LCMS shares the morality and life of Catholicism. The ELCA and Epistcoplians may at times LOOK more "Catholic" but are alternatives ONLY for the very liberal Catholic who is leaving the RCC because of it's stance on divorce, abortion, same-gender marriage, etc. and because the theology is too old fashioned.


Well, I'd be pleased to discuss all this (and more on this) much further but I'm just not here at this website very much, I've moved elsewhere.


Blessings!


- Josiah

Do you see one receiving the Holy Spirit and thus being born again when Baptized, or is a personal faith In Jesus required? One can be baptized and still not be saved or not?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you see one receiving the Holy Spirit and thus being born again when Baptized, or is a personal faith In Jesus required? One can be baptized and still not be saved or not?

We believe that God uses the Sacraments to act and convey His work to and for us, we speak of "Word and Sacrament" as the "Means of Grace"; i.e. the means through which God works to bring home faith to us, and apply the saving work of Jesus Christ. As such, the one who is baptized has faith, because faith is God's gift apart from ourselves. We don't give ourselves faith, faith isn't a personal choice, or individual work it is a supernatural gift from God that comes from outside of ourselves as pure, unmerited gift (grace). Thus the baptized person has faith, the baptized person has received the Holy Spirit, has been united to Christ, is crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and raised up to new life in and with Christ--that is to say, the baptized person is most certainly saved. For salvation comes not from ourselves, but from God as pure grace; for we are saved by grace alone, and not by our works.

Further, we baptize with the confidence of these things, and with full knowledge and intent that such a person will be raised up in the faith, receive the gifts of God, etc; that is we baptize a person with the confidence that they belong to God and that "personal faith" (i.e. a conscious following of Jesus Christ) will follow, not as a one time "decision" but as a life long pursuit of living out our faith and calling. It is part of what Paul says in Ephesians 2, that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, to walk in them for the glory of God; such good works do not save us, but are the fruit of faith. We do not trust in our works, including our works of decision, choice, or personal belief; but instead on the finished work of Christ and the objective works and gifts of God--the holy and precious Gospel of what Christ has done already which God has given us through Word and Sacrament. And because God is faithful and true, and His word is inviolate, we can be certain and confident in His most divine promises which our ours in Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Julian of Norwich]

We believe that God uses the Sacraments to act and convey His work to and for us, we speak of "Word and Sacrament" as the "Means of Grace"; i.e. the means through which God works to bring home faith to us, and apply the saving work of Jesus Christ. As such, the one who is baptized has faith, because faith is God's gift apart from ourselves. We don't give ourselves faith, faith isn't a personal choice, or individual work it is a supernatural gift from God that comes from outside of ourselves as pure, unmerited gift (grace). Thus the baptized person has faith, the baptized person has received the Holy Spirit, has been united to Christ, is crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and raised up to new life in and with Christ--that is to say, the baptized person is most certainly saved. For salvation comes not from ourselves, but from God as pure grace; for we are saved by grace alone, and not by our works.

Further, we baptize with the confidence of these things, and with full knowledge and intent that such a person will be raised up in the faith, receive the gifts of God, etc; that is we baptize a person with the confidence that they belong to God and that "personal faith" (i.e. a conscious following of Jesus Christ) will follow, not as a one time "decision" but as a life long pursuit of living out our faith and calling. It is part of what Paul says in Ephesians 2, that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, to walk in them for the glory of God; such good works do not save us, but are the fruit of faith. We do not trust in our works, including our works of decision, choice, or personal belief; but instead on the finished work of Christ and the objective works and gifts of God--the holy and precious Gospel of what Christ has done already which God has given us through Word and Sacrament. And because God is faithful and true, and His word is inviolate, we can be certain and confident in His most divine promises which our ours in Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

That was Very well said!

 

[YeshuaFan]

We believe that God uses the Sacraments to act and convey His work to and for us, we speak of "Word and Sacrament" as the "Means of Grace"; i.e. the means through which God works to bring home faith to us, and apply the saving work of Jesus Christ. As such, the one who is baptized has faith, because faith is God's gift apart from ourselves. We don't give ourselves faith, faith isn't a personal choice, or individual work it is a supernatural gift from God that comes from outside of ourselves as pure, unmerited gift (grace). Thus the baptized person has faith, the baptized person has received the Holy Spirit, has been united to Christ, is crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and raised up to new life in and with Christ--that is to say, the baptized person is most certainly saved. For salvation comes not from ourselves, but from God as pure grace; for we are saved by grace alone, and not by our works.

Further, we baptize with the confidence of these things, and with full knowledge and intent that such a person will be raised up in the faith, receive the gifts of God, etc; that is we baptize a person with the confidence that they belong to God and that "personal faith" (i.e. a conscious following of Jesus Christ) will follow, not as a one time "decision" but as a life long pursuit of living out our faith and calling. It is part of what Paul says in Ephesians 2, that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, to walk in them for the glory of God; such good works do not save us, but are the fruit of faith. We do not trust in our works, including our works of decision, choice, or personal belief; but instead on the finished work of Christ and the objective works and gifts of God--the holy and precious Gospel of what Christ has done already which God has given us through Word and Sacrament. And because God is faithful and true, and His word is inviolate, we can be certain and confident in His most divine promises which our ours in Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

So you would hold baptismal regeneration as the Church of Rome defines it as being then?

 

[YeshuaFan]

We believe that God uses the Sacraments to act and convey His work to and for us, we speak of "Word and Sacrament" as the "Means of Grace"; i.e. the means through which God works to bring home faith to us, and apply the saving work of Jesus Christ. As such, the one who is baptized has faith, because faith is God's gift apart from ourselves. We don't give ourselves faith, faith isn't a personal choice, or individual work it is a supernatural gift from God that comes from outside of ourselves as pure, unmerited gift (grace). Thus the baptized person has faith, the baptized person has received the Holy Spirit, has been united to Christ, is crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and raised up to new life in and with Christ--that is to say, the baptized person is most certainly saved. For salvation comes not from ourselves, but from God as pure grace; for we are saved by grace alone, and not by our works.

Further, we baptize with the confidence of these things, and with full knowledge and intent that such a person will be raised up in the faith, receive the gifts of God, etc; that is we baptize a person with the confidence that they belong to God and that "personal faith" (i.e. a conscious following of Jesus Christ) will follow, not as a one time "decision" but as a life long pursuit of living out our faith and calling. It is part of what Paul says in Ephesians 2, that we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, to walk in them for the glory of God; such good works do not save us, but are the fruit of faith. We do not trust in our works, including our works of decision, choice, or personal belief; but instead on the finished work of Christ and the objective works and gifts of God--the holy and precious Gospel of what Christ has done already which God has given us through Word and Sacrament. And because God is faithful and true, and His word is inviolate, we can be certain and confident in His most divine promises which our ours in Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

So the sinner is born again by that ordinance itself, and does not have to receive Jesus thru personal faith in Him?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So you would hold baptismal regeneration as the Church of Rome defines it as being then?

As Scripture itself teaches.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So the sinner is born again by that ordinance itself, and does not have to receive Jesus thru personal faith in Him?

Not an ordinance, but the gracious work of God Himself in His sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I am LCMS but I am also a confirmed Catholic. I have been attending the Lutheran Church for the past seven years. I have been considering returning to the Catholic Church lately. I would like to discuss in this thread what are the differences between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church?

Let's stay on topic... which is Lutheran/Catholic differences; not reformed protestant theology vs Catholics and Lutherans; that is one for general theology.