Did You Really Not Know That Christ Must Be Obeyed? --Yes, You!

[Hammster]

If there was a need for discipline while calling oneself a Christian, I'm sure we would get it.
The initial discipline I received, ("the wages of sin is death"), was administered when I was baptized into Jesus and into His death and burial.
Thanks be to God though, I was also "raised with Him to walk in newness of life".
Now, I am Christ's, and it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
How's that for discipline?

It’s not what the Bible teaches.

Here it is in the full context.


You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.”
It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
— Hebrews 12:4-11

This doesn’t fit your understanding.

 

[Phil W]

It’s not what the Bible teaches.

Here it is in the full context.


You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.”
It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
— Hebrews 12:4-11

This doesn’t fit your understanding.

Sure it does.
Were I to act against God with disobedience I would be punished-disciplined.
But that warning, like all the other exhortations to avoid "even the appearance of evil", helps me keep the "flesh" dead so as not to deserve discipline.

If you are told you will get a ticket for speeding, do you keep speeding?
No sane man would.

You acknowledge the discipline for sin but have missed the "striving against sin".
I keep striving against sin while others await discipline.
Which is easier?

 

[Hammster]

Sure it does.
Were I to act against God with disobedience I would be punished-disciplined.
But that warning, like all the other exhortations to avoid "even the appearance of evil", helps me keep the "flesh" dead so as not to deserve discipline.

If you are told you will get a ticket for speeding, do you keep speeding?
No sane man would.

You acknowledge the discipline for sin but have missed the "striving against sin".
I keep striving against sin while others await discipline.
Which is easier?

I haven’t missed anything. I’m only saying what scripture says and that is that we will still sin, and if we are unrepentant, God will discipline us.

 

[GenemZ]

then he died

If we believed in the Lord Jesus we wouldn't commit sin.
He has made it know what will happen to those who sin, and it isn't salvation.

If that's the case? Then he died in vain when dying for our sins......
He did nothing. He should have said instead... "Stop sinning and you will be saved."

Salvation is about? Believe and you shall be saved.

" And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31​

Some people love badgering others (which is a sin). Believing not sinning saves us, gives them license to bother others whom they see as sinning. There is the irony. They love to judge others, thus sinning against the Lord who told us not to judge.

When we believe in Jesus God sees us as having no longer sinned (as far as the final judgment). Yet, He is always judging our thoughts and intents of our hearts. Our thoughts and intents will be evaluated and will be what determines our rewards... or shameful loss of rewards.

God is not going to grant great authority and powers in His glory to those who persisted in thinking contrary to the truth of God's Word.


Enuf... I wish you grace.

 

[GenemZ]

Sure it does.
Were I to act against God with disobedience I would be punished-disciplined.
But that warning, like all the other exhortations to avoid "even the appearance of evil", helps me keep the "flesh" dead so as not to deserve discipline.

If you are told you will get a ticket for speeding, do you keep speeding?
No sane man would.

You acknowledge the discipline for sin but have missed the "striving against sin".
I keep striving against sin while others await discipline.
Which is easier?

There is hope. If you continue to mature in Christ (through continuously growing in grace and knowledge of God's Word) over time your struggle against sin will come to a resting place. A state of mind where God grants you an inner peace that goes beyond all understanding.

Young men face the wages of war. The older men rest in their victory.

 

[Phil W]

I haven’t missed anything. I’m only saying what scripture says and that is that we will still sin, and if we are unrepentant, God will discipline us.

Your interpretation of Heb 12 is biased by a belief that no man can, as Peter put it in 1 Peter 4:1, "cease from sin".
Once you realize that God can do anything, you will see that men, in Christ, can live without sin.

 

[Phil W]

then he died

If that's the case? Then he died in vain when dying for our sins......
He did nothing. He should have said instead... "Stop sinning and you will be saved."

God tried that in the OT.
It didn't work because men walked in the flesh, with no other choice.
In the NT, we have the ability to join with Christ in the death and burial of our old fleshly minded self and be "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life".
A life walked in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, and in the light...wherein is no darkness (sin).
But none of that will happen without faith that it can happen.

Salvation is about? Believe and you shall be saved.

" And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31​

Some people love badgering others (which is a sin). Believing not sinning saves us, gives them license to bother others whom they see as sinning. There is the irony. They love to judge others, thus sinning against the Lord who told us not to judge.

You doctrine corrupted many scriptures in the above paragraph.
Was Jesus badgering others when He told the Pharisees, Sadducees, and lawyers that they were sons of the devil, liars, and hypocrites?
Have you read..."Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." (1 Tim 5:20) ?
As for judging, I can only judge with the judgement I myself was judged with: that being..."The wages of sin is death".
I was crucified and buried with Christ for my sins, thankfully resulting in rebirth from God's seed...which cannot bring forth liars, adulterers or thieves.

When we believe in Jesus God sees us as having no longer sinned (as far as the final judgment). Yet, He is always judging our thoughts and intents of our hearts. Our thoughts and intents will be evaluated and will be what determines our rewards... or shameful loss of rewards.

I don't need what is tantamount to a license to sin, as I have a license to do good instead of evil.
Thanks to my God given belief that the Holy Spirit indwells those whose repentance from sin is true.

God is not going to grant great authority and powers in His glory to those who persisted in thinking contrary to the truth of God's Word.

Or to those who serve sin instead of serving God.
Jesus said the "truth" would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.
He was right.

 

[Phil W]

There is hope. If you continue to mature in Christ (through continuously growing in grace and knowledge of God's Word) over time your struggle against sin will come to a resting place. A state of mind where God grants you an inner peace that goes beyond all understanding.

With your last post in mind, I can only think that just accepting sin in my life is your idea of "inner peace".
I have the peace that comes from obedience to my Master.

Young men face the wages of war. The older men rest in their victory.

Jesus won the war.
He conquered sin while in the flesh.
So I will rest in His victory.

 

[GenemZ]

Your interpretation of Heb 12 is biased by a belief that no man can, as Peter put it in 1 Peter 4:1, "cease from sin".
Once you realize that God can do anything, you will see that men, in Christ, can live without sin.

Phil? The art of missing the context award goes to you. Context?

We MUST place a passage in its context, or abuse will take place by anyone wishing evil upon themselves and others.

Here is some of the context.

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves
also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the
body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest
of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the
will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past
doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust,
drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry."​

Peter was speaking of living a lifestyle of sin. Not simply the end of the ability to sin.


"living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry."


Jesus warned that judging others was one of the worst sins. So? When you judge someone who is committing a sin of the flesh? You are sinning.

Mental attitude sins are insidious sins. They are not overt until the one thinking them opens his mouth. But, they are still sin even if he keeps his mouth shut. They can be easily denied.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and
the truth is not in us. ​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and
purify us from all unrighteousness. ​

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be
a liar and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10​

Telling you this as a brother.. You need to get your priorities straight, sir. So far, the truth is not (living) in you.

grace and peace...

 

[Phil W]

Phil? The art of missing the context award goes to you. Context?
We MUST place a passage in its context, or abuse will take place by anyone wishing evil upon themselves and others.
Here is some of the context.

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves
also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the
body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest
of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the
will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past
doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust,
drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry."​

Peter was speaking of living a lifestyle of sin. Not simply the end of the ability to sin.

Your "context" erased the direct words Peter used in 1 Peter 4:1...ie,,,"have ceased from sin."

Jesus warned that judging others was one of the worst sins. So? When you judge someone who is committing a sin of the flesh? You are sinning.

Are you judging me?
Tsk tsk...
Jesus judged aplenty, but was aware of the rest of His own words..."For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged".
I have already been judged worthy of death, and now I warn others of the same judgement I received.

Mental attitude sins are insidious sins. They are not overt until the one thinking them opens his mouth. But, they are still sin even if he keeps his mouth shut. They can be easily denied.

I'll take James' word for what constitutes sin..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
If there is no temptation, lust, enticement, or conception there is no sin.
As those that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with the temptations and lusts, (Gal 5:24), lusts are never a factor in the lives of those that are Christ's.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and
the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and
purify us from all unrighteousness.
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be
a liar and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10​

Too bad you left out verse 7, as it and verse 9, which you did supply, both refute your point of view.
They both say ALL our sins and unrighteousness CAN be washed away/cleansed.
You've mistakenly used the verses meant for those walking in darkness to assassinate the character of those walking in the light.
John is differentiating between two different kinds of men in 1 John 1.
​

Telling you this as a brother.. You need to get your priorities straight, sir. So far, the truth is not (living) in you.
grace and peace...

So the theme of your post is that I must return to sin in order to get the truth living in me?

 

[Hammster]

Your interpretation of Heb 12 is biased by a belief that no man can, as Peter put it in 1 Peter 4:1, "cease from sin".
Once you realize that God can do anything, you will see that men, in Christ, can live without sin.

Actually, it’s a belief that there’s a reason scripture tells us to cease from sin. It’s because our flesh, and until we are glorified, we will deal with our flesh. But as we grow in grace, we will put sin to death more and more.

So if you think you don’t sin, you are lying to yourself, you don’t understand scripture, and you definitely don’t understand how sinful you really are.

 

[GenemZ]

Your "context" erased the direct words Peter used in 1 Peter 4:1...ie,,,"have ceased from sin."

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and
the truth is not in us.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be
a liar and his word is not in us."

1 John 1:8 + 1 John 1:10


​

If ignoring what was said comforts you? May God bless.

 

[Religiot]

“A man’s heart deviseth his way: But the LORD directeth his steps.” Proverbs 16:9 (KJV 1900)

Brother, a director tells you what to do, he does not cause you to do it.

The best actors are also the ones who can take direction the most.

We are to obey God's direction, always.

If God were causing our actions, obedience would not be possible.

 

[Phil W]

Actually, it’s a belief that there’s a reason scripture tells us to cease from sin. It’s because our flesh, and until we are glorified, we will deal with our flesh. But as we grow in grace, we will put sin to death more and more.

God made provisions for what to do with the "flesh".
Crucify it, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
We can't walk in the Spirit if we still walk in the "flesh".

So if you think you don’t sin, you are lying to yourself, you don’t understand scripture, and you definitely don’t understand how sinful you really are.

Were that true, then Christ didn't conquer sin.

The Jews awaited a Messiah, but one to save them from the Romans.
They were unaware that the Savior came to free them from a much more insidious enemy...sin.
His death, burial, and resurrection wasn't wasted with me.
I have been freed, just as Jesus said in John 8:32-34.

 

[Phil W]

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and
the truth is not in us.

If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be
a liar and his word is not in us."

1 John 1:8 + 1 John 1:10​

If ignoring what was said comforts you? May God bless.

If ignoring the surrounding verses, which both say we CAN have ALL our sins-unrighteousness washed away by the blood of Christ, comforts you...I am left without words.

 

[Religiot]

Brothers, we must make the distinction between kinds of sin, for not all sins are equal:

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." --John 19:11

Some sins are mortal, but others are not:

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." --1 John 5:16-17

We must take all of what is written and harmonize it, otherwise, the scriptures would appear to contradict themselves in an almost comical manner; for example, the very next verse reads as follows:

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." --1 John 5:18

This can only be understood spiritually, that is, our flesh is not born of God, but our spirit now is; therefore, we presently have a dual nature, when once we were singular against God, now we are dual--one for God, the other not. This is what Paul talked about in Romans 6, 7, and 8; but when parsed from chapters 6 and 8, ch.7 is often taken to mean a personal confession: it is not, but an illustration that clearly demonstrates the basic dichotomy of spirit and flesh: one is for God, the other is not, but we who are born again, walk in the Spirit, by our spirit, and do mortify the flesh, because we are now spiritually minded, when once we were, singularly, carnally minded.

--This is what I find the bible says.

I cannot reconcile the scriptures otherwise.

PS: My own experience, tho not of much value in this forum, is, however, of great value to me, for I cannot imagine myself engaging in any of the things I use to take pleasure in--they are now embarrassing to me, and just the thought of going back to how I used to be makes me feel sick--this anecdotal evidence is my own testimony, and I know that it's true.

---I still sin, but by God's grace, it's no longer unto death, but if it ever were unto death--God forbid!--I have an advocate with the Father, Who ever lives to restore me, no matter how often I fail:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." --1 John 2:1-2

The truth of the gospel gives me peace in Christ, towards God, that now because of Christ, God is for me, to only help me, and to beat my hide, should I need it--like any loving Father would do.

Godspeed.

 

[GenemZ]

Brother, a director tells you what to do, he does not cause you to do it.

The best actors are also the ones who can take direction the most.

We are to obey God's direction, always.

If God were causing our actions, obedience would not be possible.

God does not cause our choice for our actions. We must decide.

Yet, God must cause something involving our actions to please Him.

God has to supply grace which gives us enabling power. Power that causes us to be made able to fulfill his desired effect in the expression of our action. God tells us what He wants, and we must agree to it.

Without God's grace? We could do nothing in ourselves to please Him. We can try, but it will be merely religious and mechanical without God's grace enabling us.

God does not cause our actions. God causes our actions to become righteous when He is controlling us.

We need to have His enabling grace power present in our actions to please God.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me
was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—
yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me." 1 Cor 15:10​

Until we understand how to keep remaining being filled with the Spirit God? His grace can not make our actions righteousness. Even if we religiously followed the letter of the law of Jesus and attempted to do all his commands.

Without the filling of the Spirit supplying us His grace? Our actions will amount to wood, hay, and stubble; to be burned at our evaluation before the Lord. We will be merely religious and devout human beings unless we learn how to be filled with the Spirit. God wants us to be spiritual, not religious.

Grace and peace.......!

 

[Mr. M]

Acts 24:16. This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense
toward God and men.
James 3:2. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

 

[Dave L]

Brother, a director tells you what to do, he does not cause you to do it.

The best actors are also the ones who can take direction the most.

We are to obey God's direction, always.

If God were causing our actions, obedience would not be possible.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900)

“Lord, thou wilt ordain Peace for us: For thou also hast wrought all our works in us.” Isaiah 26:12 (KJV 1900)

“Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Hebrews 13:21 (KJV 1900)

 

[Hammster]

God made provisions for what to do with the "flesh".
Crucify it, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
We can't walk in the Spirit if we still walk in the "flesh".


Were that true, then Christ didn't conquer sin.

The Jews awaited a Messiah, but one to save them from the Romans.
They were unaware that the Savior came to free them from a much more insidious enemy...sin.
His death, burial, and resurrection wasn't wasted with me.
I have been freed, just as Jesus said in John 8:32-34.

The problem is that you still sin. And if you think you don’t, you are deceived. And if the Father doesn’t discipline you, then you are an illegitimate child. Let that sink in.