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Did YHWH lose the world to Satan by Jesus time...?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I did.
    God has never lost control of the earth that he made. Problem is that you are arguing that God and YHWH are two different beings.

    I've explained my answer with Scripture - you don't seem to agree with it.
     
  2. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Different maybe but not separate... And each God...

    Why was Satan the "God of this world" by Jesus day...?

    You didn't explain or answer anything, (except for a little bit, just now) but "whatever"...

    God Bless!
     
  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I don't believe in any God I'm not allowed to question, or bring or pose my questions to without Him getting all "upset" about it... And not get any answers from either, either for, or to, or about those questions, and again without Him getting all or to upset about it either...

    That's not my God...

    God Bless!
     
  4. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    There is only oNE God.

    He wasn't.
    The prince of the world, yes; but God is king and will never abdicate.

    I answered the OP in post #13.
     
  5. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Who is it then, YHWH or Jesus, cause those two are separate or were separate and different as well, very different, nigh polar opposites and are "not the same at all"...

    2 Corinthians 4:4- "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, (by the world that he is in control of) lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    John 12:31- "Now is the judgment of this world: (IOW's) now shall the prince of this world (who controls this world) (why it is being judged) now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    Satan was able to show Jesus all the kingdoms of the world or this world "in a moment of time", and offer them all to Him, because he (Satan) had control of it all, at least by that time, (actually says they had been given to him or given over to him at least by that time) at least...

    Your "supposed answers" didn't satisfy me, and the post was long, and I wasn't about to try and go and tell you "all the problems" and "everything" wrong or contradictory in what you said...

    God Bless!
     
  6. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Biblical teaching, and Christian belief, is that there is ONE God Father, Son and Holy Spirit; three persons all with distinct roles - but ONE God.
    Jesus said "I and the Father are one", John 10:30, "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father", John 14:9 and prayed that he would receive the glory that he shared with his Father before the world began, John 17:5. John said that the Word was with God and the Word WAS God, John 1:1-3.
    From where do you get the idea that Jesus and God were "polar opposites"?

    God with a small 'g' though.
    Maybe it seems to some that the devil is like a god and has as much power - but he doesn't; they clearly don't know God.

    Yes, and as I said to you, Satan was a liar from the beginning, a thief and the father of lies.
    He wasn't telling Jesus the truth about controlling the nations of the world, although he may have believed that he had that much power. Satan wouldn't know the truth if it bit him.

    Oh sorreee.

    Because I was taking the time to respond properly to your OP instead of just dismissively saying "you're wrong".
    When someone asks the question, "what do you think?", I am under the impression that they want my opinion.
    Sorry if that is a silly presumption to make.

    The thing is that it is only wrong as you see it.
    You have not yet given any Scriptural evidence for YHWH being "a young Jesus"; now you are saying that they are "polar opposites."
    You won't find Scriptural evidence for that either. The Bible is clear that there is one God, who has many names, one of which is YHWH. It is clear that God sent Jesus, who was human and divine, into the world; Jesus many times referred to God as his Father. Jesus then taught that after the ascension, he would ask the Father to send his Spirit to the disciples to live in them. On one occasion, Paul refers to the Spirit of Jesus. THIS is how God - YHWH - lives in us; by his Spirit.
    This is Biblical teaching, and the teaching of the mainstream churches. Even the rules of these forums say;

    There are not 3 Gods; there is not a main God and a younger one or anything of the kind. Sorry, but that is just not a Biblical belief.
     
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    So then, is YHWH in and of himself alone, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit then...? or is or was Jesus also in and of himself also the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in and of himself also... Or is there "a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit...?

    Some people say that we are triune beings, having a body, and a spirit, and a soul, in one container, and perhaps you are saying they (each member or our triune God, or our triune God is sort of like that maybe...?

    But then, we know their is at least a God, or a member of the Godhead, that is a Spirit, and one that is Body, or represents the body or bodies, or a God, or member of the Godhead, one that is a or the God who is a Spirit and represents God as a or the Spirit, and one that is a or the God, who is or represents God in the flesh...

    Is there a third...? A God that would be or represent the "soul" of God or the Godhead, perhaps only by a combining or joining of the Spirit and the flesh, becoming the or like the Soul of that, or our God...

    Jesus had a glorified body after he was resurrected, that could be just "manifested or de-manifested" at will (pass through walls, doors, normal matter and material, could be manifested, de-manifested at will, ect)...

    I don't think God the Spirit, that could be the, or a, or the original God of this world, could just manifest or de-manifest a physical body at will (from "elsewhere" maybe) anyway, that Spirit had to work through and with things "in this world" that "already were" or existed and manipulate or use them, (people, forces of nature, or the environment, animals, ect) but as far as manifesting or de-manifesting things or anything out of or "from nothing", I do not think God in and of the OT could do that on His own or in and of himself, like Jesus could after He died and was resurrected, ect... Because He was God or the Member of the Godhead that was or represented the "physical, fleshy side or aspect of God...

    Yes Jesus was much more like the true Father was or is than YHWH is or was, I would say, and they were "One" in Him... And if you've seen Him and Know Him (Jesus) you see and know the true highest true Father God or Father of all Gods/gods, ect... I think one of them is here" and not also there, or there also, and one of them is both here and there, where the true Father dwells that He (Jesus) is or was One with "in the realms above" and not just only in this world only...

    That should be obvious to any truly objective point of view, and if you know anything about them at all...

    That was more than likely done in translation... And, even if it wasn't I don't see how that matters because it still says Satan is "the God/god of this world" or all these worldly earthly fallen systems or kingdoms... Or, "the or this world" just like it says...

    Now I asked you this already, how did or how was Satan, by Jesus time and day able to offer Him (Jesus) "all the kingdoms of the world, or that would ever be in and from this world, and "in a moment of time" even, anyway How was he (Satan) able to that with Jesus and say what he did about it, that "they had all been handed over to him, and he could and does and has always since it was handed over to him, offer it to "whomever he wills"...?

    Actually yes he was telling the truth and was able to, (in or at that time maybe) (telling the truth "that time"... I don't think Jesus thought he was lying, cause Jesus knew he could...

    Or could you please tell us how or why you think he was lying about that at that time with Jesus, when even Jesus knew that part at least, and at and during that time when he was tempting Jesus, was not a lie...

    I said this earlier also, Jesus saw Satan in "everything around Him", on His level anyway, which is the kind of things I just said in this post just a minute ago about How God that was a Spirit or was in Spirit form in the OT had to do and use (Jesus calming the storm shows he had power and authority over Him and was "greater" than He was, but in John 14:28, Jesus says the Father God (the true Father God) was "greater than Him or He is" and He was not, WAS NOT referring to YHWH there either...

    In fact in and throughout, most especially the book of John, most of time in it, when He would refer to the Father God or my or our Father God, He was not referring to YHWH, when He used the term Father God (in Heaven, or from, or residing in and ruling from, Heaven, mind you... and not this world or realm or reality or whatever)...

    In fact I suggest your just re-read the entire book or gospel of John...

    Sometimes that is the case, but not always, and it would depend on what your disagreeing with me about as well...

    In order to get the/my question truly answered, it is OK if we disagree on some things, but we also must agree on some things as well, to even start to adress or even begin to get some of my questions about this answered...

    YHWH, or whomever our God was in the OT was not very "experienced" and was not as all-knowing as He should have been to be the true Father God, and that is what I meant by "young' and was also why I put it in "quotations"...

    Anyway, due to how "old" or "young" (or experienced) He was at the time, if that theory or that line of possibility is true or correct or holds any water at all, for there are other possibilities as well, but I've eliminated some possibilities, and that is where we would need to see eye to eye to have a truly meaningful discussion about this, or for me to get my question(s) truly answered...

    And if you can't see how they are nigh polar opposites, then I'm not going to bother trying to explain "it all" to you, as it should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about these two, and or knows anything about how both of them were, an/or acted or behaved, their entire "philosophies" were totally opposite and opposed to each other, basically...

    Jesus ate with sinners, hung out with sinners, was all for and about the sinners, helped, aided, and assisted (served) sinners, and YHWH was not and was the complete opposite of that, basically, and that is just one example, and, as I said, I'm not going to explain it all to you as it should be obvious to anyone who truly knows anything at all about them or the Bible...

    Refer to what I just said to you in this post already please, and please try to be as objective as you can please...

    Well, it's wrong, hate to say...

    Are you saying that I don't believe in The Father God or the trinity, or YHWH or Christ as our God also...? Cause I do, just a bit differently than you do...

    Again, see what was just said to you please...

    God Bless!
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Make no mistake their "was" (at least) definitely some emnity between Jesus and YHWH or whomever was the God/god of the OT, to be sure... I would hope that it was resolved when Jesus died on the cross... But, remember how "shook up", how "deeply cut" and "broken up" He (YHWH or whomever was the, or our God in the OT)...

    Anyway, remember what I just said to you @Strong in Him about one of them's being able to manipulate or use things in this world, and how when Jesus died, there were (sudden or all of the sudden) earthquakes, sudden severe and strong storm, people coming up out graves even, temple viel being torn in two "from top to bottom" (which should have been impossible), anyway, do you recall that...?

    And it doesn't make you wonder...?

    Especially in light of what I've been saying and sharing with you here, and in threads like the one I provided a link to...?

    Anyway,

    God Bless!
     
  10. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Jesus knew or was told He had to create the emnity to try and kill or destroy the emnity and hopefully make peace...

    Now, did He succeed...? And if this is true, or any of this I have been saying is true, then what does this or that mean for "any of, and/or all of us" really...?

    God Bless!
     
  11. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    YHWH is God. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    Jesus is the Son, not the Father, or the Holy Spirit.
    Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 separate beings, yet they are all God, and there is only ONE God.

    I am saying that the Father, the Son and the Spirit are all divine; separate and yet one.
    Just as a man can be a Father, a Son and a brother. He will not relate to his wife in the same way he does to his children. He would not treat his sister in the same way that he treated his wife (or he'd be arrested for incest!).
    One man; 3 roles.
    Or, just as you have a single clover with 3 leaves.
    3 leaves on one stem, not 3 plants.
    Or just as H2O can be water, ice and steam.
    One substance, 3 different states. Water is not ice; ice is not steam.

    The Godhead is a Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God - and there is ONE God.

    Yes, his resurrection body.
    Paul says that our resurrection body is not like our physical body - see 1 Corinthians 15.

    I don't know what you're asking here; sorry.

    Genesis 1 says that God spoke and creation - trees, plants, animals etc - appeared. God created from nothing.
    You don't believe he did it on his own? How, then, do you believe he is God, if there is something that he cannot do?

    Sorry, but you're either not reading my posts - and Scripture - or you don't understand.
    There is ONE God - ONE. There are many names used for God in the OT; Yahweh is one of them.
    God - Yahweh - is Father. Jesus is ONE with the Father, since there is only ONE God.

    Your post reads "Yes, Jesus (God) is much more like God than God was."
    That makes no sense. Jesus is God.

    It's not true, so it can't be obvious.
    Jesus is, was and always will be, God.

    Like I said, Satan may seem to be the god of this world - But God is God and king.

    To say that God has "lost control" or given control to Satan means that Satan is now in charge of the world and everything.
    So prayers will not be answered, because Satan is in control.
    No people can be ever born again, because Satan is in control.
    As Satan is in control, he would not allow people to worship God.

    All this is clearly wrong - God is in control and has power and authority over the world he has made.

    And I already told you.
    Satan is a liar and a murderer. He is the father of lies and cannot tell the truth.
    He was tempting Jesus because he wanted the Son of God to worship him - no doubt, if Jesus had done that, Satan would have then have had to say, "well the kingdoms of the world aren't mine to give." He would have deceived Jesus just as he deceived Eve.

    He can't tell the truth.
    He is a liar and the father of lies and there is no truth in him, John 8:44.

    Jesus himself later taught that there is NO truth at all in Satan.

    So how do you know, and how are you going to prove that?
    What verses can you show us which say that there is a God called Yahweh and another God who is called the Father of Jesus?

    So now you're saying that GOD isn't all powerful, is not very "experienced" and there are some things he doesn't know??
    How many Gods do you believe in, how can any of them be truly God is they don't have too much power - and where is the Scripture that teaches all this?

    Completely unscriptural.

    You can't, because it's not true.

    Not that I'd want to listen to any "teacher" who said, 'you don't get it so I'm not bothering to explain". Blame the pupil; way to not do your job.

    Impossible.
    God, YHWH, is the One who has been sinned against throughout the whole Bible. God loved Adam and Eve, and all the millions of other people who sinned against him - and he sent Jesus so that we could be forgiven and have eternal life.
    Jesus, the Word, was, and is, God, YHWH, and there is only one God.

    Sorry, but you truly don't know the Bible if you think that.

    Biblical teaching is wrong??
    That tells me all that I need to know about you.

    Trinity = Tri-unity.
    ONE God in 3, and 3 in 1.

    You are writing about YHWH who is apparently a different, younger and less experienced God than the Father of Jesus. (Or it might be the other way around; I can't keep track of what you are saying.)
    You have been asking if the Spirit is a separate God.

    Belief in the Trinity means believing that the Father, the Son, Jesus, and the Spirit are all God and there is one God, who is YHWH.
    ONE God - O.N.E. ONE. Half of two; a third of 3.
    I don't know how many more ways I can say it.

    If a person doesn't believe that, they don't believe in the Trinity - the Tri-une God.
     
  12. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    That's blasphemy - and heresy.

    Yes; God has power over all things (does not manipulate).
    And ......?

    Wonder what?

    I don't know but it's possible that thread of your was closed because it broke some rules.
    In any case, I don't want to read it.
     
  13. 1213

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    I don’t see any reason to think that Satan is a problem. But, many people can still surrender to Satan, unfortunately.
     
  14. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    @Strong in Him, I think I got it now, had to do some study and thinking about this, and have some new or newer theories now, tell me what you think...

    There may not have been emnity "exactly" between YHWH and Christ, and Jesus was not calling YHWH Satan, but Satan, Satan... I got confused with this whole issue of Satan having taken over everything, and having had taken everything away from YHWH by Jesus day and time, and was kind of getting lost in some of the possibilities surrounding that...

    That did happen though, Satan had taken over by Jesus day and time...

    So/and/or/but, I think I (we) have completely eliminated that possibility now, in part due to in Genesis and Job, where YHWH and Satan are clearly separate entities...

    So, YHWH cannot and is not Satan period, but I had to explore that possibility, you understand... ? Hopefully maybe...? But, how did He (YHWH) lose, or how could He be losing to Satan, to where he (Satan) had completely taken over and even took YHWH's place by Jesus day and time...

    It's because YHWH was not the Father, or, at least, not the "Highest Father God" anyway, but maybe "a" Father... This should be obvious that He is not because of many, many things, like losing to Satan, for one, and nearly completely, by Jesus day and time...

    So, who is YHWH...? Well, if He's not Satan, and He's not the Highest Father God, but He's still God in that He is one of the members of the trinity then...? At this point there remains only two possibilities: He (YHWH) could be Jesus before He became a man, or, and I think it's this possibility: YHWH I think "is" the "Holy Spirit", that proceeds forth from, or comes from, or came out of, or was born from or out of, the Highest Father God but He was not the absolute Highest Father God Himself, not in and of Himself...

    He (YHWH) did not have all knowledge, He had a lot of knowledge, but not all of it, only the Highest Father God is, or was always 100% fully omniscient from the beginning, or before anything was even made, or even conceived of, or even thought of... YHWH/Holy Spirit and or Jesus, or the other two members of the trinity were not always equal to the Father, (John 14:28) but might be or might have been "after the cross" maybe, or are "now", and are maybe now waiting on the Highest Father God, to make their enemies their footstool, take action or give orders, ect...

    Recall that Mary was overshadowed and impregnated by the Holy Spirit, which really makes a lot of sense if the Holy Spirit is YHWH or YHWH is the Holy Spirit... And YHWH is supposed to be "a Spirit", or is supposed to be a/the member of the Godhead that is Spirit, or "Holy Spirit"...

    Which would be Jesus Father as a Son of Man, but as the Son of God, YHWH/Holy Spirit, would be Jesus sibling or brother, and the Highest Father God His (Jesus) or their (Jesus, YHWH/Holy Spirit) "Father" as Sons of God, but, as a man, YHWH Holy Spirit is Jesus Father...

    YHWH or Holy Spirit is different from Jesus, and may or may not have liked the fact that He had to "share his glory" with another person, especially a man, and I don't think this whole entire plan of the Father for YHWH to have to share His glory with man, or a man, was one He received or accepted very easily, or submitted to very easily... The fact that He needed Jesus or a man's help to deal with His enemies, and His primary enemy Satan, was not something He wanted to admit or accept very easily...

    I think YHWH or God the Holy Spirit knew about what the Father had told Him about the way things were going to go, or go down, and/or happen, ect, but didn't like it, maybe thought He would be able to succeed without that part of the plan ever coming to pass or ever being necessary... but, of course it was and did become necessary, and they defeated Satan at the cross, but only by "sealing his fate for a future date" that has not happened, or occurred, or come to pass yet...

    I think they are seated at the right and left hand of the Highest Father God, and are waiting on Him now, or after the cross, waiting for that "future time and date"...

    But the trinity, (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), is the "Highest Father God" as the Father, and Jesus Christ as the Son, and YHWH as the Holy Spirit of the "Highest Father God"...

    Satan is an angel, and not a God, or not God, like one, or either one, of three members of the trinity are, but two of them (YHWH and Jesus, or Holy Spirit and Jesus) would probably both have to say that the true Father God was "greater than they were" or are, or were at the, or at that time in history "before the cross" ect (John 14:28)...

    I also kind of got hung up on that as well, How could YHWH if He's God, ever lose or be losing, to one who is only an Angel, but it must have all been part of the Highest Father Gods plan or purpose or plans, for us, and for "them" as well, or those other two members of the Godhead...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Who is in control of, or whose hands is the world in now or today, or by now...?

    Still in Satan's hands until end times or after end times, or what...?

    God Bless!
     
  16. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    There was no enmity at all; such a thing was not even possible.
    Jesus was God; the Word became flesh, John 1:14.
    Jesus said, "if you have seen me you have seen the Father", John 14:9, and I and the Father are one, John 10:30.

    I don't believe he had - Jesus defeated Satan in the wilderness and on the cross.
    He did call Satan the prince of this world; if you interpret that as meaning that he had "taken over", so be it. As I said, though; God was still King.

    Well we all need to learn and find out, so, I guess so.
    I don't understand, personally, how you could confuse the two; but never mind.

    YHWH is God.
    God is YHWH.
    God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    If he was not "highest Father God", who was? There is only ONE God.

    The Trinity is not at all easy to understand - I get that.
    But it is a fact and is a central doctrine of mainstream Christianity and this forum.

    There is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; 1 in 3, 3 in 1.
    The Father, Son and Spirit are all divine, yet there are not 3 Gods;, but one.
    The Father, Son and Spirit all have separate roles - the Father created the universe, through the Son and in the power of the Spirit. In Genesis 1, God spoke and the world was created. John says that Jesus is the Word, was in God and with God from the beginning. If someone speaks, what happens immediately before hand? They take a breath. The Spirit was the breath of God that was hovering over the waters before creation, Genesis 1:2
    The Father, Son and Spirit - all God - were all present at creation.
    They are all present at salvation too. The Father sent his Son, Jesus, the Word who was God and became flesh, to die for us. The Spirit, who is God, convicts us of sin and draws us to Jesus so that we can be forgiven. No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again, John 3:3; which is what the Spirit enables to happen.

    So you're saying that there is more than one God? You're saying that there is a "highest" God called YHWH, and a "younger" or lesser God who has less knowledge??

    So you DON'T believe in the Trinity.

    So not only does God not have all knowledge, he is divided within himself and jealous of Jesus?
    This gets worse!
    You have no Scriptural evidence of this at all.

    I don't know what kind of god you believe in; it seems to be one who has little power, needs Jesus to help him defeat the devil and is jealous of that fact.
    There is no Scripture for any of this.

    Yes, you might THINK that - but that is not what Scripture says or the church teaches.

    There is ONE God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't know if you are trying not to read that statement because it contradicts what you believe, or you are just ignoring it because you don't understand it.
    Read the OT - the name YWHW is used often. God said to Moses "I am who I am" - YHWH.
    Sometimes one of his other NAMES is used; it refers to the same God, because there is only one; YHWH.
    When Moses said "Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one,", he was referring to YHWH.
    When David wrote that the Lord is king and sits on his throne, is our loving shepherd, Psalms 23, our strength and refuge, Psalms 46, the One who led all the Israelites and fought their battles - that is YHWH.

    Again, not Scriptural.

    There is ONE God.
    Not a "highest" and a "lesser" or an "older" and a "younger" - ONE.
    Trinity means 3 in 1. Again, you have either not read my post or just don't want to believe it.

    He can't, he hasn't and he never will.
    YHWH kicked Satan out of heaven - the devil tried to take over and defeat him, but failed.
    Jesus the Son defeated Satan on the cross. He defeated him also in the wilderness.
    The Spirit gives us the power and resources to defeat the devil in Spiritual warfare - the sword of the Spirit is the word of God.

    The devil may seem to have a lot of power right now; more than we might like - but he is ALREADY defeated, and at the end of time, will be finally and completely.
     
  17. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I think everything is in God’s hands. But the time of Satan has not yet come to an end.
     
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