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Did YHWH lose the world to Satan by Jesus time...?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Did YHWH lose the world to Satan by Jesus time...?

    Was what YHWH was trying to do in the OT...? Did it fail...? And did he (YHWH) lose the world to Satan by Jesus time...? Or did YHWH have a plan to make the Devil think he was winning by allowing him to take over and then defeat him through and as man, shaming him (Satan the Devil) maybe...? Or what...?

    And Jesus would have been the last One for Satan to claim and he would have taken over all...?

    Since by Jesus time, was Satan in and part of everybody almost, or at least had open access to nearly everyone, since he was in Peter and even had access to Peter (Matthew 16:23) (Mark 8:33) and maybe the rest of the apostles even, to say little to nothing about everyone else...?

    I am reminded of Agent Smith and Neo at the end of the Matrix movies, how Smith had overrun everything and Neo was all that stood in his way...?

    John 12:31- “Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."

    Luke 4:6- "And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

    Ephesians 2:2- "in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience."

    Let's not forget what happened at the cross though, when Jesus died not having submitted to Satan, the Devil... (But, did, or had all the rest)...?

    Luke 10:18- "And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

    If Satan had overrun everything except Jesus himself, by Jesus time, what happened at the cross and after that...? Do we still have Satan to deal with today...? Or why do we...?

    I believe YHWH to be the Holy Spirit, and joined with Jesus in Jesus day, and took Satan on through him, and with him and by him and beat him (Satan) through Jesus...

    Then took over, together, (YHWH and Jesus) after the cross (Ephesians 2:15)...

    But if that is so, Satan should no longer be or be a problem and/or issue anymore, right...?

    What do you think...?

    God Bless!
     
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  2. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

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    I think that you should spend more time reading the OT.

    As you will find that God is totally in control of what is happening through out the OT.
     
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  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Total control, no... Not YHWH anyway... The Father always was/is, but not YHWH...

    I've spent a great, great deal of time in the OT in the past, in fact, long ago, I use to be a JW, and so, know a lot about YHWH...

    One has to shed their fear, in order to question these things though, and maybe your just not brave enough, and maybe many are just not brave enough, they have their "religion" and don't dare ever question it, I guess...

    God Bless!
     
  4. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

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    You have a choice.
    God is in control or what we call God is not god and someother god is in control.

    As the bible clearly teaches God spoke and the universe came into being, God dictated where the seas should be, what the boundaries for the nations are etc

    The logic is simple and it matches what the bible teaches.
     
  5. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    So you think the Father is not YHWH?
     
  6. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I think he was with him and in YHWH but was not one of the Godhead at the helm in the OT so to speak...

    It was either Jesus or the Holy Spirit, or the Son of God, acting, doing, deciding ect...

    He was doing the Father's will "at the, and/or for that time", but the Father was not the one at the helm of the Godhead in the OT...

    This is evident by the fact that it (what was being done in the OT) (How God acted in the OT) was not the actions of a fully omniscient God (the Father) in the OT...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Why does Satan seem to have taken over by Jesus time, and was the "ruler (god) of the world" at that time, and could offer "all the kingdoms of the world" to Jesus at that time, cause they were "all his to give"...?

    What "changed" (what happened) from the OT to by the time of the New, or by the time of Jesus...?

    God Bless!
     
  8. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who Is Satan?
    The many forms of the devil in the Bible
    by John Gregory Drummond

    In the Hebrew Bible, YHWH’s greatest enemies are not fallen angels commanding armies of demons, nor even the gods of other nations, but, rather, human beings. It isn’t the devil that spreads evil across the face of creation—it is mankind. Other than human beings, YHWH has no nemesis, nor are there malevolent spiritual forces not under his authority. YHWH is ultimately a god of justice. He is behind the good and the bad, behind the blessings and the curses. It is within this divine court of justice and retribution that Satan has his origins.​

    BC 1003 Census: WHO AUTHORIZED IT—GOD OR SATAN?
    Michael S. Heiser

    the Angel of Yahweh stood in the way of Balaam and his donkey “as an adversary (satan).” The Angel was opposing Balaam; he was a divinely appointed adversary, like the satan in 1 Chr 21...

    In both accounts, the Angel dispenses God’s judgment upon David (1 Chr 21:14–15; 2 Sam 24:15–16)…

    Yahweh was angry with Israel, not David. Yahweh chose to use David as His instrument of judgment against the nation, similar to the way He would use Nebuchadnezzar centuries later.​
     
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  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    So, Satan is serving God... Or is doing God's will... But, he is malevolent in nature, and God only allows him to things when he allows him to do them, or holds his leash so to speak...?

    Is Satan aware of this...? or not...? Is he aware that he is really serving God...?

    God Bless!
     
  10. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Human who disobey the words of God immediately "fall" guilty under Judgement unto punishment & Wrath. Only God has authority over vengeance, wrath, Judgement, justice.

    I don't fully grasp the issue. It seems like occasionally God may authorize a court-of-law-like cross examination (e.g. Job) to test people's loyalty and to know their hearts... Jesus Himself tested Philip in John 6:6.

    yet, otherwise, in the NT, James 1:13 and the Gospels exclusively reserve the word "tempt / try / trial" (G3985 peirazo) for Satan and humans who follow the same. (Jews accused Paul of "trying" to profane the Temple in Acts 24:6.)

    I don't right now know how to reconcile those views. God never temps / tries, but people are tempted by their own lusts for sinful pursuits (James 1:13-14). If someone feels temptation, they have a duty to turn more fervently to God, and the Devil will flee (James 4:7 = Jesus in the Wilderness).

    The NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible & NIV Study Bible Notes (available via Bible Gateway) compares James 1:13 vs. Genesis 22:1, and concludes that there is some difference between "test" (which God does, e.g. John 6:6, just to find out) and "tempt" (which only Satan does, per James 1:13, with intent to lead astray). The LXX OT of Genesis 22:1 uses the same word (G3985) as John 6:6 and James 1:13.
     
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    .
     
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The consequences of Sin impacted the entire Cosmos when Adam was removed from Paradise at the Fall of man.

    12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

    Romans 8:22
    For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
     
  13. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    God, has never and will never, lose control of the world.
    That would imply that Satan was more powerful and God is helpless to do anything about it.

    People failed; God didn't.

    If Satan appears to be winning, it is only because sin has taken over and people have rejected/are rejecting God.
    Satan is only prince of this world; God is still king. Satan is a defeated foe and can do nothing without God's knowledge.

    But we are still all made by God and in his image.

    Yes, he's been cast out - he was defeated on the cross.

    Except that the devil is a liar and the father of lies, John 8:44. He had no power to give Jesus anything - everything was created through Jesus, John 1:1-3

    Jesus died because this was God's will and plan to reconcile the world to himself.
    Satan no doubt wanted Jesus to die because he thought that he would be rid of him. He can't have known about the resurrection, or he would have tried to keep Jesus off the cross.

    What happened at the cross was that Jesus, the spotless Lamb of God, offered his life as a sacrifice for sin and made it possible for us to have peace with God, reconciliation, forgiveness and eternal life.
    We are still in the world - a fallen world - and the devil wants to claim non Christians and tempt Christians and try to ruin our relationship with God. But people don't need to die in their sins, separated from the One who made them.

    God is a Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    In the OT, Yahweh was one of the names of God.

    No.
    After the cross God raised Jesus from the dead, proving that he was who he had claimed to be, Romans 1:4. Jesus ascended to his Father and sent his Holy Spirit to live in us.
    Yahweh is God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    He isn't.
    He is still around, but Christ has won the victory over him and we, too, can have that victory.
    As someone has said, "the devil may prowl around like a roaring lion, but he's a lion with false teeth."
     
  14. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    What does Ephesians 2:14-16 mean then...?

    What is the emnity and who is or was it between...? and who are the two beings who are like men, or become, or became, one "new man"...?

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    The Highest God or Father, no I do not...

    He's not, and was not fully omniscient... because if He was, He would have to be guilty of great deception and a lot of deceiving with us... Which I do not believe...
     
  16. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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  17. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    It was between the Law and the Lord of the Law, and the Lord, or God of Grace (and Mercy, and Truth, and Love), and their people (or us)...

    This also says that Jesus "abolished" the Law, destroyed it basically, or caused the Lord of it to submit to (or get behind) Him (Jesus) (YHWH to Jesus, possibly, maybe)...

    And that the two might be reconciled (both of them) (YHWH and Christ) to God (the true Highest Father God) (and to each other) and make, or be made into, "one new man" creating peace...
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  18. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Did YHWH become or was He always God the Spirit (H.S.) and Jesus was God in the flesh, and "who knows" which or what true "substance" the true or highest Father God was, or is made up of, or consists of...

    Or is YHWH Jesus, but in the past...?

    God Bless!
     
  19. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Jesus saw Satan all around Him and in everyone and everything outside of Him at that time, except for maybe the one "above" Him...

    And if YHWH did not lose the earth to Satan somewhere or at some point in the OT...? Well, you figure it out...? and then tell me just exactly what Jesus was doing or did (with Him (YHWH) and us with Him or them both) at that time...?

    Was He just simply obeying the one who He might have thought was above Him, from inside of Him, doing the work that one gave Him to do or was born to be doing...? And the rights or wrongs of it, or what might have been the rights or wrongs of it, really didn't matter, what mattered was Him following and obeying the one above who's voice He heard from within...

    That put everything else "not in Him or above Him", into question for Him maybe...

    God Bless!
     
  20. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Spiritual warfare has always been between God and Satan.

    Satan was once an angel of light; Lucifer. But he became proud, wanted to be greater than God, rebelled against him and persuaded a number of angels to join him in his rebellion. Of course, they could not win - so they got chucked out of heaven. Satan now tries to fight God mostly by trying to corrupt, ruin or destroy mankind; all the people whom God made in his image.
     
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