Did we miss our turn somewhere?

[Maria Billingsley]

Let's not give fancy names to beliefs that are not in scripture as readers might not know what you mean. That scripture does speak in plain language that is not metaphorical. Read the context it speaks of the Jewish nation that stubbornly turned against God, and he stopped adding them to the Kingdom because of that, but he would again turn his attention TO JACOB AFTER THE LAST GENTILE HAS BEEN. ADDED. Those thoughts are clear. The two witnesses in Revelation are not. That's why pastors only speculate who they believe the 2 are. And they are wrong. There is no way to prove that number is literally two.

Salvation is given to each and every person if they wish to know their Creator. This is a one on one "regenerated" relationship and no longer Torah driven. God came in the Flesh,Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and gave His New Commandments. The Kingdom of God is made of the remnant Jews and the Gentile as one Body of Christ. There is no longer a Jewish nation of God, only Israel, AKA The Body of Christ which is both Jew and Gentile believers. God never stopped adding a Jewish believer. There is only one nation under God, The Kingdom of God.
Blessings

 

[jgr]

God promised the church is not destined for wrath but to obtain delverance.

Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for rapture wimps in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.

But the promise is only for those who refuse to be rapture wimps.

 

[Woke]

But Maria Billingsley you side-stepped the point of the scriptures I shared. It's like me claiming we are saved in Christ in an attempt to refute any false interpretation someone presents. And then a third party says WINNER?

No, actually address the point under consideration. Because if not, who are you teaching? We can all say, saved by Christ. We can all say Christ only recognizes one church, his own, and it contains both Jews and gentiles. But that alone won't help others understand Romans 11:25-29.

Now I agree what one believes about our topic, yours and mine, is not a salvation issue. Nevertheless why don't you take another stab at explaining Romans 11:25-29, as your quote above does not address those scriptures.

 

[nolidad]

The church doesn't get a free lunch. Read Christ's letters to them in the first part of Revelation. Those that endure in 3:10 are the only ones spared from the great tribulation in those letters. Nowhere in scripture does it say the whole church is spared from the great tribulation. See Matthew, the last half of chapter 24 and first half of 25. Your idea sounds pleasing, but scriptures don't support it.

As for the two witnesses in Revelation there is no way to prove your point. Because most of Revelation is symbolic. Pastors speculate on who those two witnesses are, and that's probably why you believe there are only two, because that's all you have heard. But if you believe you can prove that, I invite you to do so.

Many come out of the great tribulation. And that won't just be because they suffer in it. As Revelation claims they will have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. A great witness must cause that. And that witness will not be delivered by just two people.

The true church does get a pass! The visible church, many parts of it (those unsaved but warming pews) don't get a pass!

And yes the Scriptures does say it!

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Wrath here refers to the 70th week of Daniel or the great tribulation!

Revelation 6:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There are only 2! The Bible says there are two witnesses.

Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

What you need to do is prove that they are not two witnesses! All the language points to two individuals. Their identity may not be known but their number is!

If they are the church- then hell prevails over the church for the beast kills both these unknown number of entities that may or may not be just 2 peo0ple but could be an untold number.

And your false assumption that there isn't a great witnessing going on to defend these cannot be just two people has no merit or basis in fact!

Simply there are at least 144,000 witnesses during the tribulation before these two witnesses start their ministry.

 

[nolidad]

Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for rapture wimps in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.

But the promise is only for those who refuse to be rapture wimps.

And I teach all my students and fellow church members that if we live Godly we shall suffer persecution and tribulation. But I am not talking about general suffering for the name of the Lord- but the consequences fo the 70th week of Daniel which Revelation calls the wrath of the Lamb and the Day of His wrath and multiple places in the OT calls it the Day of wrath! I am talking that specific 7 year peiod which encompasses the trumpets and vials and the genocide of the anitchrist! Not general suffering for the name of Jesus!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And I teach all my students and fellow church members that if we live Godly we shall suffer persecution and tribulation. But I am not talking about general suffering for the name of the Lord- but the consequences fo the 70th week of Daniel which Revelation calls the wrath of the Lamb and the Day of His wrath and multiple places in the OT calls it the Day of wrath! I am talking that specific 7 year peiod which encompasses the trumpets and vials and the genocide of the anitchrist! Not general suffering for the name of Jesus!

The wrath and genocide came upon the Apostate Jews in 70AD.........
John 8:44 `Ye out of a father the Devil are, and the desires<1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing......................

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
Revelation 18:14
“The fruit that your soul longed for<1939> has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all.

--------------------------------------
Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
Acts 8:3
As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison. [before his conversion, then he in turn was persecuted and put in prison]

1Th 2:16
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
==============================
Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10 No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried. And ye shall be having Tribulation<2347> of ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.
========================================
Revelation 6:
16And they call to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lambin!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” [Hosea 10:8 Luke 23:30]
==============================
CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70


APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus. Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city. Instead of waiting to starve the Jews into submission, Titus decides to assault many different parts of the city and overwhelm the defenders. Titus was early on in the middle of the fighting with his soldiers. At least two times, Titus and his detachment are surrounded by defenders, only to escape unharmed.

The first obstacle was the Third Wall, just to the north of the Jaffa Gate. The ground leading up to it was felled to provide clear fields of fire and to provide timber for siege equipment. Two of the Jewish factions fighting within the city agree to work together against the Romans, but a third continued to fight the other factions. Massive quantities of corn were destroyed in bitter factional fighting.
=======================================

 

[Woke]

The true church does get a pass! The visible church, many parts of it (those unsaved but warming pews) don't get a pass!

And yes the Scriptures does say it!

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Wrath here refers to the 70th week of Daniel or the great tribulation!

Revelation 6:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There are only 2! The Bible says there are two witnesses.

Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

What you need to do is prove that they are not two witnesses! All the language points to two individuals. Their identity may not be known but their number is!

If they are the church- then hell prevails over the church for the beast kills both these unknown number of entities that may or may not be just 2 peo0ple but could be an untold number.

And your false assumption that there isn't a great witnessing going on to defend these cannot be just two people has no merit or basis in fact!

Simply there are at least 144,000 witnesses during the tribulation before these two witnesses start their ministry.

I didn't say that the two witnesses in Revelation are not two people. I said the number might be representative of more, as Revelation is full of symbolism. So there is no way to prove there will be more than two making up that number, just as there is no way to prove the 144,000 is a literal number. Your quoting those scriptures doesn't prove that. All it shows is that you attach your belief to that, which is perfectly fine.

But something that I asked you to address, which was the scriptures I referenced in Romans, you are still overlooking. Everyone here knows Paul wrote there is neither Jew nor gentile, meaning both make up the Kingdom. But that has nothing to do with God turning his attention back to Jacob after the last gentile has been accepted into the church. Those scriptures speak of God abandoning that nation, just as Christ said he would, but in Romans Paul wrote that abandonment is just until the last gentile becomes part of the church. Then it doesn't say one more Jew is added. It says God turns his attention again to those particular people to save all Israel, for the sake of the promises he made to their forefathers.

Look, these type of debates I realize like you probably do are, while scriptural, are also academic in nature, and God doesn't judge Christians on their views over these matters. Nevertheless if you are willing address the scriptures in Romans for us.

There is a scripture at the end of Revelation that states if anyone adds or subtracts from that message their name will be taken out the book of life or Christ will add the plagues listed in the book to them. Does that mean every Christian must accept the numbers 2 and 144,000 represent literally those numbers. Certainly not. If so the same argument holds true for the beasts spoken of in that scroll. But this idea goes even deeper. If one teaches which words must be taken literally and which words must be taken symbolically, hasn't that teacher added something into the Revelation messages that isn't there himself /herself.

That's exactly what the false religion that I left did. And if you didn't see it their way they didn't wait for Christ to punish. They did it themselves, as a group. Those who saw anything differently wore the Scarlet letter A, not for adultery but for apostasy. As a matter of fact that religion considers you and everyone claiming to be Christian that is not a member of its church apostate, even though you never went there. That is the danger of insisting every scripture must be interpreted a certain way. And to reveal who is who the scriptures were purposely written to be interpreted.

 

[nolidad]

The wrath and genocide came upon the Apostate Jews in 70AD.........
John 8:44 `Ye out of a father the Devil are, and the desires<1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing......................
--------------------------------------
Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
Acts 8:3
As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison. [before his conversion, then he in turn was persecuted and put in prison]

1Th 2:16
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
==============================
Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10 No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried. And ye shall be having Tribulation<2347> of ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.
========================================
Revelation 6:
16And they call to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lambin!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” [Hosea 10:8 Luke 23:30]
==============================
CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70


APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus. Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city. Instead of waiting to starve the Jews into submission, Titus decides to assault many different parts of the city and overwhelm the defenders. Titus was early on in the middle of the fighting with his soldiers. At least two times, Titus and his detachment are surrounded by defenders, only to escape unharmed.

The first obstacle was the Third Wall, just to the north of the Jaffa Gate. The ground leading up to it was felled to provide clear fields of fire and to provide timber for siege equipment. Two of the Jewish factions fighting within the city agree to work together against the Romans, but a third continued to fight the other factions. Massive quantities of corn were destroyed in bitter factional fighting.
=======================================

Before I rebut all this hodge podge- I am still waiting for you to show from hisotry when, from 34 to 70 AD the seals, trumpets, bowl judgments happend and what were they. Who was the beast and what was his mark, what was the image that came alive and spoke. and when did the angels fly across the land with teh warning about taking the mark!

 

[nolidad]

I didn't say that the two witnesses in Revelation are not two people. I said the number might be representative of more, as Revelation is full of symbolism. So there is no way to prove there will be more than two making up that number, just as there is no way to prove the 144,000 is a literal number. Your quoting those scriptures doesn't prove that. All it shows is that you attach your belief to that, which is perfectly fine.

But something that I asked you to address, which was the scriptures I referenced in Romans, you are still overlooking. Everyone here knows Paul wrote there is neither Jew nor gentile, meaning both make up the Kingdom. But that has nothing to do with God turning his attention back to Jacob after the last gentile has been accepted into the church. Those scriptures speak of God abandoning that nation, just as Christ said he would, but in Romans Paul wrote that abandonment is just until the last gentile becomes part of the church. Then it doesn't say one more Jew is added. It says God turns his attention again to those particular people to save all Israel, for the sake of the promises he made to their forefathers.

Look, these type of debates I realize like you probably do are, while scriptural, are also academic in nature, and God doesn't judge Christians on their views over these matters. Nevertheless if you are willing address the scriptures in Romans for us.

There is a scripture at the end of Revelation that states if anyone adds or subtracts from that message their name will be taken out the book of life or Christ will add the plagues listed in the book to them. Does that mean every Christian must accept the numbers 2 and 144,000 represent literally those numbers. Certainly not. If so the same argument holds true for the beasts spoken of in that scroll. But this idea goes even deeper. If one teaches which words must be taken literally and which words must be taken symbolically, hasn't that teacher added something into the Revelation messages that isn't there himself /herself.

That's exactly what the false religion that I left did. And if you didn't see it their way they didn't wait for Christ to punish. They did it themselves, as a group. Those who saw anything differently wore the Scarlet letter A, not for adultery but for apostasy. As a matter of fact that religion considers you and everyone claiming to be Christian that is not a member of its church apostate, even though you never went there. That is the danger of insisting every scripture must be interpreted a certain way. And to reveal who is who the scriptures were purposely written to be interpreted.

Well it seems you accept some things in REvelation as literal. How do you choose what to believe as literal, what may be symbolic and what is symbolic?

How do you know that warning at the end of revelation isn't just symbolic? After all you said revelation is full of symbolism! If you accept it as literal---Why?

Maybe the resurrection in revelation is symbolic? How about the New Jerusalem? How about Gods Wrath? is that symbolic?

why are you even bothering to make comment on things you cannot even decide if they are literal or not? Why do you chide those who using sound hereneutics do see them as literal? See we can play this mind game all day long and get no where.

But if one is to accept that the bible when it uses symbolism, defines that symbolism elsewhere in the Inspired by God word- the chance for error becomes less and less.

It sounds like you left the watchtower. they are the only ones I know that as a known institution does that stuff. I have had years of witnessing to the watchtower! I at one time had a larger library of watchtower material than many kingdom halls! And i still keep their study of revelation! their opinions are all allegorical and fail even the allegorical method of hermeneutics that many Christian sects rely on!

 

[jgr]

And I teach all my students and fellow church members that if we live Godly we shall suffer persecution and tribulation. But I am not talking about general suffering for the name of the Lord- but the consequences fo the 70th week of Daniel which Revelation calls the wrath of the Lamb and the Day of His wrath and multiple places in the OT calls it the Day of wrath! I am talking that specific 7 year peiod which encompasses the trumpets and vials and the genocide of the anitchrist! Not general suffering for the name of Jesus!

In the midst of the 70th week of Daniel, Christ upon the cross took the wrath which should have fallen upon us.

Isaiah 53
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Then instead of wrath He bought and brought salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It was at Calvary, in the midst of the 70th week of Daniel, that Christ assuaged God's wrath.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Before I rebut all this hodge podge- I am still waiting for you to show from hisotry when, from 34 to 70 AD the seals, trumpets, bowl judgments happend and what were they. Who was the beast and what was his mark, what was the image that came alive and spoke. and when did the angels fly across the land with teh warning about taking the mark!

Open up threads on those............

70AD Jerusalem is in Revelation 18........

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
===============================
Revelation 18: A Preterist Commentary - Revelation Revolution

Revelation 18 The Fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 . . .

In A.D. 70, thousands of Roman soldiers and auxiliaries from across the Euphrates converged on the city of Jerusalem. And like ancient Babylon, Jerusalem fell having been overcome to a large part by the passage of its enemies across the Euphrates. Largely because of the similarities in the way in which these two cities fell, the author of Revelation draws heavily from predictions in both Isaiah and Jeremiah concerning the fall of Babylon while describing the destruction of Jerusalem (Isaiah 48:20; 47:8-9; Jeremiah 51:6-7; 50:8; 51:6; 51:63-64; 51:49).

According to Luke 13:33, “[N]o Prophet can die Outside of Jerusalem!” In v. 24 Babylon is Charged with the Deaths of the Prophets; therefore, Babylon must be Jerusalem.

The fact that according to v. 24 all the blood of the prophets and saints was found in Babylon is perhaps the strongest evidence in favor of Babylon representing the city of Jerusalem. In Luke 13:33 Jesus is recorded to have said, “[N]o prophet can die outside of Jerusalem!” Furthermore, in Matthew 23:34-37 Jesus places the responsibility for the deaths of all the prophets, sages and teachers squarely on the people of Jerusalem:

Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you [emphasis mine][.]

In the verses above, one can see how the blood of the saints is placed squarely on the people of Jerusalem. According to Matthew 23:34-37 the apostate Jews of Jerusalem were to kill the saints and pursue them from town to town. Thus when Revelation 18:24 says that the blood of the prophets and saints is found in Babylon this doesn’t mean that every single saint and prophet was to be killed in Babylon or Jerusalem. Rather, it means that the blame for all these murders would be placed on Jerusalem as Jesus says in Matthew 23:35: “And so upon you [the people of Jerusalem] will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth[.]” Matthew 27:25 echoes this idea that the people of Jerusalem would be held responsible for the deaths of the saints. During Jesus’ trial before Pilate Matthew 27:25 records the people of Jerusalem accepting blame for Jesus’ execution when they said, “His blood is on us and on our children!” If Babylon is responsible for the deaths of the prophets, then Babylon must be Jerusalem.21

Though Jerusalem is blamed for the deaths of the saints, one must not forget that Rome also played a role in many of these executions. Remember Rome implemented the execution of Jesus Christ at the Jews request and later killed many of His people in A.D. 64 during the Neronic persecution. Above we detailed the fulfillment of Revelation 18 in the fall of Jerusalem. However, there may be an interesting way in which Revelation seems to imply and history seems to confirm that Revelation 18 may have had a dual fulfillment in the temporary fall of the Roman Empire after the death of Nero from A.D. 68 to A.D. 69. See Could Revelation 18 Also be Partially Fulfilled in the Death of the Beast and the Temporary Fall of Rome After the Death of Nero?.

 

[nolidad]

Open up threads on those............

70AD Jerusalem is in Revelation 18........

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
===============================
Revelation 18: A Preterist Commentary - Revelation Revolution

Revelation 18 The Fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 . . .

In A.D. 70, thousands of Roman soldiers and auxiliaries from across the Euphrates converged on the city of Jerusalem. And like ancient Babylon, Jerusalem fell having been overcome to a large part by the passage of its enemies across the Euphrates. Largely because of the similarities in the way in which these two cities fell, the author of Revelation draws heavily from predictions in both Isaiah and Jeremiah concerning the fall of Babylon while describing the destruction of Jerusalem (Isaiah 48:20; 47:8-9; Jeremiah 51:6-7; 50:8; 51:6; 51:63-64; 51:49).

According to Luke 13:33, “[N]o Prophet can die Outside of Jerusalem!” In v. 24 Babylon is Charged with the Deaths of the Prophets; therefore, Babylon must be Jerusalem.

The fact that according to v. 24 all the blood of the prophets and saints was found in Babylon is perhaps the strongest evidence in favor of Babylon representing the city of Jerusalem. In Luke 13:33 Jesus is recorded to have said, “[N]o prophet can die outside of Jerusalem!” Furthermore, in Matthew 23:34-37 Jesus places the responsibility for the deaths of all the prophets, sages and teachers squarely on the people of Jerusalem:

Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you [emphasis mine][.]

In the verses above, one can see how the blood of the saints is placed squarely on the people of Jerusalem. According to Matthew 23:34-37 the apostate Jews of Jerusalem were to kill the saints and pursue them from town to town. Thus when Revelation 18:24 says that the blood of the prophets and saints is found in Babylon this doesn’t mean that every single saint and prophet was to be killed in Babylon or Jerusalem. Rather, it means that the blame for all these murders would be placed on Jerusalem as Jesus says in Matthew 23:35: “And so upon you [the people of Jerusalem] will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth[.]” Matthew 27:25 echoes this idea that the people of Jerusalem would be held responsible for the deaths of the saints. During Jesus’ trial before Pilate Matthew 27:25 records the people of Jerusalem accepting blame for Jesus’ execution when they said, “His blood is on us and on our children!” If Babylon is responsible for the deaths of the prophets, then Babylon must be Jerusalem.21

Though Jerusalem is blamed for the deaths of the saints, one must not forget that Rome also played a role in many of these executions. Remember Rome implemented the execution of Jesus Christ at the Jews request and later killed many of His people in A.D. 64 during the Neronic persecution. Above we detailed the fulfillment of Revelation 18 in the fall of Jerusalem. However, there may be an interesting way in which Revelation seems to imply and history seems to confirm that Revelation 18 may have had a dual fulfillment in the temporary fall of the Roman Empire after the death of Nero from A.D. 68 to A.D. 69. See Could Revelation 18 Also be Partially Fulfilled in the Death of the Beast and the Temporary Fall of Rome After the Death of Nero?.

I am glad you rated my last post humorous!

But all this verbage (verbage = verbal garbage) doesn't sahow one seal, trumpet, or bowl being fulfilled nor the identyof teh beast or his mark nor the angels flying around!

Still waiting for you to stop being evasive and answer the question as being a preterist you believe these have happened and are part of the historical record!

 

[nolidad]

In the midst of the 70th week of Daniel, Christ upon the cross took the wrath which should have fallen upon us.

Isaiah 53
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Then instead of wrath He bought and brought salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It was at Calvary, in the midst of the 70th week of Daniel, that Christ assuaged God's wrath.

And I agree with all that But 1 Thess. 5 is not the lake of fire but the 70th week of Daniel!

REV. 6:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Joel 2:1
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

oel 2:11
And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.





As the context is the Day of the Lord and not eternity that is moot!

 

[nolidad]

Open up threads on those............

70AD Jerusalem is in Revelation 18........

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
===============================
Revelation 18: A Preterist Commentary - Revelation Revolution

Revelation 18 The Fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 . . .

In A.D. 70, thousands of Roman soldiers and auxiliaries from across the Euphrates converged on the city of Jerusalem. And like ancient Babylon, Jerusalem fell having been overcome to a large part by the passage of its enemies across the Euphrates. Largely because of the similarities in the way in which these two cities fell, the author of Revelation draws heavily from predictions in both Isaiah and Jeremiah concerning the fall of Babylon while describing the destruction of Jerusalem (Isaiah 48:20; 47:8-9; Jeremiah 51:6-7; 50:8; 51:6; 51:63-64; 51:49).

According to Luke 13:33, “[N]o Prophet can die Outside of Jerusalem!” In v. 24 Babylon is Charged with the Deaths of the Prophets; therefore, Babylon must be Jerusalem.

The fact that according to v. 24 all the blood of the prophets and saints was found in Babylon is perhaps the strongest evidence in favor of Babylon representing the city of Jerusalem. In Luke 13:33 Jesus is recorded to have said, “[N]o prophet can die outside of Jerusalem!” Furthermore, in Matthew 23:34-37 Jesus places the responsibility for the deaths of all the prophets, sages and teachers squarely on the people of Jerusalem:

Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you [emphasis mine][.]

In the verses above, one can see how the blood of the saints is placed squarely on the people of Jerusalem. According to Matthew 23:34-37 the apostate Jews of Jerusalem were to kill the saints and pursue them from town to town. Thus when Revelation 18:24 says that the blood of the prophets and saints is found in Babylon this doesn’t mean that every single saint and prophet was to be killed in Babylon or Jerusalem. Rather, it means that the blame for all these murders would be placed on Jerusalem as Jesus says in Matthew 23:35: “And so upon you [the people of Jerusalem] will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth[.]” Matthew 27:25 echoes this idea that the people of Jerusalem would be held responsible for the deaths of the saints. During Jesus’ trial before Pilate Matthew 27:25 records the people of Jerusalem accepting blame for Jesus’ execution when they said, “His blood is on us and on our children!” If Babylon is responsible for the deaths of the prophets, then Babylon must be Jerusalem.21

Though Jerusalem is blamed for the deaths of the saints, one must not forget that Rome also played a role in many of these executions. Remember Rome implemented the execution of Jesus Christ at the Jews request and later killed many of His people in A.D. 64 during the Neronic persecution. Above we detailed the fulfillment of Revelation 18 in the fall of Jerusalem. However, there may be an interesting way in which Revelation seems to imply and history seems to confirm that Revelation 18 may have had a dual fulfillment in the temporary fall of the Roman Empire after the death of Nero from A.D. 68 to A.D. 69. See Could Revelation 18 Also be Partially Fulfilled in the Death of the Beast and the Temporary Fall of Rome After the Death of Nero?.

Well these commentaries fall very short of the actual prophesy in Revelation 18 and they do not address teh seals, bowls, trumpets, the beast and his mark and the angels flying. Still waiting for you to answer these as you believe they are history!

 

[jgr]

And I agree with all that But 1 Thess. 5 is not the lake of fire but the 70th week of Daniel!

REV. 6:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Joel 2:1
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

oel 2:11
And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.





As the context is the Day of the Lord and not eternity that is moot!

The 70th week of Daniel is all about Messiah.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am glad you rated my last post humorous!

But all this verbage (verbage = verbal garbage) doesn't sahow one seal, trumpet, or bowl being fulfilled nor the identyof teh beast or his mark nor the angels flying around!

Still waiting for you to stop being evasive and answer the question as being a preterist you believe these have happened and are part of the historical record!

Keep waiting

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
The wrath and genocide came upon the Apostate Jews in 70AD.........
John 8:44 `Ye out of a father the Devil are, and the desires<1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing......................
--------------------------------------
Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
Acts 8:3
As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison. [before his conversion, then he in turn was persecuted and put in prison]

1Th 2:16
forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
==============================
Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10 No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried. And ye shall be having Tribulation<2347> of ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.
========================================
Revelation 6:
16And they call to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lambin!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” [Hosea 10:8 Luke 23:30]
==============================
CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70


APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus. Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city. Instead of waiting to starve the Jews into submission, Titus decides to assault many different parts of the city and overwhelm the defenders. Titus was early on in the middle of the fighting with his soldiers. At least two times, Titus and his detachment are surrounded by defenders, only to escape unharmed.

The first obstacle was the Third Wall, just to the north of the Jaffa Gate. The ground leading up to it was felled to provide clear fields of fire and to provide timber for siege equipment. Two of the Jewish factions fighting within the city agree to work together against the Romans, but a third continued to fight the other factions. Massive quantities of corn were destroyed in bitter factional fighting.

nolidad said: ↑
Before I rebut all this hodge podge- I am still waiting for you to show from hisotry when, from 34 to 70 AD the seals, trumpets, bowl judgments happend and what were they. Who was the beast and what was his mark, what was the image that came alive and spoke. and when did the angels fly across the land with teh warning about taking the mark!

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑

Open up threads on those............

70AD Jerusalem is in Revelation 18........

Well these commentaries fall very short of the actual prophesy in Revelation 18 and they do not address teh seals, bowls, trumpets, the beast and his mark and the angels flying. Still waiting for you to answer these as you believe they are history!

Keep waiting........
Just stick with the carnal dispensationalist futurists commentaries.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
Col 1:9
For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

It does seem that most "carnal" futurists want to avoid reading Josephus in relation to Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and Revelation..........

For those viewing this thread, here are some links/ commmentaries from a Preterist view........
================
"Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century concluding in Judea/Jerusalem 70ad

Matthew 24:
6 “And you will hear of battles and rumors of battles. See that you are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass,
but the end is not yet.
=================================
William Patton : The Judgment of Jerusalem (1876)

Rev. William W. Patton Study Archive | Archive of Works | Exegesis of I. Peter, III. 18-20; or Christ's Preaching to the Spirits-in-Prison | Invites Finney for Revival | Is the Doctrine of the Final Restoration of all Men Scriptural?.

Review - "The ten chapters of this neat volume give an account, with the help of some plans and pictures, of the city and temple of Jerusalem in our Lord’s time; of his prediction concerning it; of the causes of the war, and the safety of the Christians; of “ the six signs,” “the trench about the city,” and the sufferings of the besieged; of its capture by the Romans, and the destruction of the temple; and of the “subsequent history of the Jews.” A leading object is to show the fulfilment of our Lord’s words in that terrible catastrophe as it is described to us principally by Josephus, and to impress the appropriate lessons."

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

William Patton : The Judgment of Jerusalem (1876) Free Online Books @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology

All Prophecies Fulfilled! | 817-793-9461 | Preterist Bible Commentary

PRETERIST BIBLE COMMENTARY ON ALL MAJOR END TIME BIBLE VERSES:

• • Revelation 22

• • Revelation 19

• • Revelation 16

• • Revelation 13

• • Revelation 10

• • Revelation 7

• • 2 Peter 3:5-13

• • 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9

• • 1 Corinthians 15:50-54

• • John 21:22-23

• • Luke 6:47-49

• • Mark 8:38-9:1

• • Matthew 22:1-14

• • Matthew 17:20

• • Matthew 13:24-43

• • Matthew 8:11-12, 28-32

• • Matthew 3:12

• • Zechariah 11

• • Daniel 11:35-45

• • Daniel 7

• • Ezekiel 39:1-20

• • Isaiah 65

• • Deuteronomy 28:15-68

• • Revelation 21

• • Revelation 18

• • Revelation 15

• • Revelation 12

• • Revelation 9

• • Revelation 6

• • Hebrews 10:37

• • 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

• • Acts 2:19-20

• • John 8:3-7

• • Mark 14:61-62

• • Matthew 24

• • Matthew 21:19-46

• • Matthew 16:27-28

• • Matthew 11:20-24

• • Matthew 7:24-27

• • Zechariah 14

• • Zechariah 9:9-17

• • Daniel 9:24-27

• • Daniel 2:31-45

• • Ezekiel 38

• • Isaiah 63

 

[nolidad]

Keep waiting

Oh I am- because you and I both know you cannot prove or show or even through the most complex allegorical reinterpretation of Scripture demonstrate those things happened by 70AD.

But I will keep reminding you every time you throw out your other verbal garbage that preterism fails because they ignore and refuse answering something they declare as historical!

 

[nolidad]

The 70th week of Daniel is all about Messiah.

No it is not and you should know that!

 

[jgr]

No it is not and you should know that!

Daniel didn't know that either.

His 70th week is all about Messiah, the Christ.

Not some mythical dispensational antichrist.