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Featured Did "Time" as we know it exist in the Garden before the fall?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by friend of, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As I said, I am scratching my head.
     
  2. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Difficult to say. Bible tells people were expelled from the garden and the garden is guarded after that. So, I think it may still exist.
     
  3. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Of course it did, we just don't have a timeline before the creation of life on this planet. I've always believed that the original creation in Genesis 1:1 was separated from creation week by billions of years. Genesis 1:1 is a stand alone account, creation is another and the creation of Adam and Eve in Eden was an expansion of the day six account.
     
  4. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If we read Genesis (of the creation) like a Hebrew would, the title of the book is very important to the text. So much so that it could be read as...

    And the evening and morning were the first day "of the creation".

    Now all the sudden they dont have to be sequential with no days between. The 1st day and the 7th day could be very far apart.

    Forgive me...
     
  5. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hi Friend Of, I may be misunderstanding you, but it certainly seems like time existed there before the Fall. For instance:

    Genesis 1
    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    2 The earth was aformless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
    3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
    4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
    5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
    6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
    7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
    8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

    etc.

    BTW, I've always believed the age to come, be it in Heaven or on the New Earth, will go on forever, but I never assumed or knew that time would no longer be linear (or heard that such a belief was a common one).

    Yours and His,
    David
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  6. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    That angel with the flaming sword was guarding the tree of life, and it does still exist.

    Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev. 22:1,2)
    Adam was forbidden after the fall to approach it but all who receive Christ are offered the healing it offers.
     
  7. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    You know that point of view never really bothered me, it's been pretty common down through the centuries. I still think it's a literal week emphasizing God created life, something that is confirmed in the New Testament. Some don't believe creation week is literal, which is no where near as important was what you think of passion week. God is still the author and finisher of life in this creation and especially, the one promised in the gospel.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  8. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Right, stasis. This is the definition I was getting at when I mentioned timelessness. In this sense, I believe the word Timeless here can be used interchangeably with Eternal, denoting an unchanging essence. An essential property of Time is that it can be measured and is thus finite, in contrast to that which is immeasurable [or] infinite. God is defined as the same person throughout all Time Hebrews 13:8

    And since we are raised to life in Christ by these promises, then we are raised to life with God, who is eternal. We are IN God and God is IN us.

    2 Corinthians 4:14 , 2 Timothy 2:11 , Philippians 3:10-11 , Romans 6:11 , Galatians 2:19-21 , Galatians 3:27 , Colossians 3:1-4 , 2 Corinthians 13:5

    Now we arrive at a problem of the definition of movement against the definition of stasis. Life is comprised of movement and what we know as stasis here is death. Is God's nature not static in a sense? Then how can we ever exist in a state of changing stasis? How can we be held in static metamorphosis? Such a contradiction to our comprehensions must be cast out not by logic but by Faith 1 Corinthians 2:9

    edit: I am willing to accept that my logic here might be awry
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  9. Jason_apostle

    Jason_apostle when you live by faith you really celebrate

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    Time started when material money came on scene. it's about to end cause they're probably going to do away with material money. The time before money was like a paradox
     
  10. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    time as constantly running is indefinitely existing/present, and there may be difference only in the notion of time

    Blessings
     
  11. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I believe the scriptures are very clear that the garden of Eden was on this present earth and everything on this earth experiences time as well as on the new earth to come according to scripture.

    God created time to enable His creation to function sequentially. He pronounced it very good and there is no reason to believe He has changed His mind.
    Although it is commonly believed - it is definitely incorrect.

    Whether you consider eternity to be spent on a new earth or in Heaven itself. There will be time experienced by us either way.

    For instance:

    The tree of life on the new earth yields its fruit every month. Revelation 22:2

    "From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me". Is. 66:22-23

    The book of Revelation shows the inhabitants of Heaven operating sequentially within time.

    There is music and song in Heaven which require meter, tempo, and rest. Songs have a beginning, a middle and an end. Certain notes are held longer than others.

    Heaven's inhabitants track in time down to rejoicing the moment a person
    repents.

    "there was silence in heaven for about half and hour." Rev. 8:1

    "Summer and winter, day and night will never cease." Genesis 8:22

    God's people "serve Him day and night in His temple." Revelation 7:15

    The nations "bring" their gifts to the New Jerusalem. That requires moving from one place to another which involves time.

    The Bible speaks of the "coming ages". Ephesians 2:7

    The martyrs in Heaven are told to "wait a little longer" when they ask "how long " until Christ judges the earth and avenges their blood.

    And on and on it goes.

    There is absolutely no reason not to believe that what God pronounced very good will cease to exist in the world to come.

    The omnipresent creator of this world obviously exists and functions in the time He created right along with His creation.

    No doubt God Himself is not bound by time and He experiences time in a different way than we do. But even He experiences and functions in time as stated in various ways in the scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
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  12. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    Time existed in the garden of Eden just as it does today. 1 Minute was 60 seconds. 1 hour was 60 minutes. 1 day was 24 hours. 1 week was 7 days. Exactly as described in Genesis 1.

    Heaven will be infinitely better than Eden. Eden was not eternal in nature before the fall of man.
     
  13. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Well, if Genesis is the truth, time was created just a few days before man. The garden may have been a paradise but there was time.
    Eternal life, though linked to Eden like state, will be outside of the confines of time. Eternity will not be in heaven. It will be on the new earth where heaven will descend to. There is where we will live, with God, for eternity.
     
  14. PeaceJoyLove

    PeaceJoyLove Well-Known Member

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    In creation week, on the third day plants yielded up their seed and fruit before the sun, moon and stars were created on the fourth day. On the first day, the earth was void and full of darkness until God said "Let there be Light."

    Genesis 1:4 "And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

    5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

    On the fourth day, God hung the sun, moon and stars to mark time. "let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so."

    A Day, in the beginning goes from evening to morning...dark to light and yet no sun or moon to mark time.

    Adam was first alone in the garden until God put him in a deep sleep, put a wound in his side to take out a woman/helper. Then he listened to the woman and ate. Then was the eyesight change and God asked "Where art thou?" ...he fell...from being naked and not ashamed to hiding himself. Could it have to do with spiritual "seeing" of dark and light verses temporal 'seeing' by the sun and moon - time?

    "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." ... To man of the earth, 24 hours.

    Eternal means lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning. It is all about where one is perceiving from...just like the question God asked Adam, "Where art thou?" Jesus said the kingdom does not come with observation..."Behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
     
  15. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    To answer the OP question: Yes. God named day and night before He created man.

    That said: I am of full belief that time actually doesn't exist. Think about this for a second (pun intended). What do we base our entire understanding and construct of time on? The decay of an isotope? A rock spinning around a star? When you see the origins of what we consider time to be, it is strikingly man-made. For time to truly exist, it should have no real basis on 3rd dimensional objects. It a human's way of trying to define and compartmentalize our passage from point to point within our 3 dimensional world. There is nothing but right now for us. God's viewpoint is all possibilities all at once. God exists in eternity, and as we know infinity is not a number, and therefore cannot be defined in either the 3rd or 4th (conceptual) dimension. Time is an illusion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  16. Mare Liberum

    Mare Liberum E Mare Libertas

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    Are you asking if Earth took a radically different orbit around the sun? Unlikely, but you could ask an astronomer.

    Eden is a place name for the beautiful garden where God met with mankind on Earth. God didn't create Eden, then the Universe.

    If Eden was eternal in it's nature, it would have no end or beginning, making it coeval with God. Maybe its a nice story, but its not a Christian belief.
     
  17. jhwatts

    jhwatts Junior Member Supporter

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    Time will be after the earth is made again. Notice in Revelation 22:2 that there are months of time.
     
  18. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In time's defense, it is a rather well done illusion. But you're correct, the present is all we have and it is a gift. But then will our measure of time change in the next life? Perhaps in the same way we try to measure time during dreams? A very different task altogether than a clock in waking life here.

    I may have been mistaken in my assumption then. I just assumed that, since we will partake of God's eternal nature upon resurrection, that it would be safe to think of time in the world to come as being irreconcilable with God's nature, because if eternity were linear then that would mean it had a beginning and an end. Since God is the beginning and end, Alpha and Omega, then He exists in an unbroken, unchanging state of flawlessness.
     
  19. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    It was explained to me, that the garden is to the east and heaven to the north. Christ's sacrifice allows us to pass north, but we can't go back east. And yes time existed since man cannot exist outside time, outside time there is no thought or works of any kind, in other words man is inside time and always has been.
     
  20. Kenneth Redden

    Kenneth Redden The day I found 2 Timothy 3:15 KJV! Supporter

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    Paul's demonstration of the Spirit and of power. The King James Version of the Bible was written from the beginning and third day of the Creation. It does not directly apply to us, here in the last fourth day of the Creation; when God made the stars also. Genesis 1:16


    These stories of days are embedded in the volume of the text in patterns, in the script, in the format or even in the grammar. It is by these patterns in which text may be associated with the days of Creation in Genesis, for the 21st Century reader.


    Take for example, “out of the water and in the water,” for the second day; in 2 Peter 3:5. And the word, “also,” with the words “stars,” and “earth” may be a reference to this 21st Century Universe.


    We are “born again,” in this Universe. John 3:3, John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23. “Being born again, may mean to be compliant with our physical laws and laws of the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Yes; and it is by Jesus Christ that “whosoever believeth in him (the word of God) should not perish, but have everlasting life” in John 3:16. Science is our proof

    Kenneth G Redden
    [email protected]
     
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