Did the Thief on the Cross go to Paradise on Crucifixion Friday?

[trophy33]

Yes, when we read that Paul boarded a ship, it would be appropriate to look into other contemporary literature to understand what a "ship" (or the word in the Greek) means. But when we say that Jesus went to the grave (Hades), it would not be appropriate to look to Homer, and his depiction of Hades during the journeys of Odysseus , to find the truth about the reality of Christ's death.

KT

It may not be appropriate to look at one source only (Homer), instead of the broad body of literature and materials, both secular and biblical.

But its appropriate to understand it as was common in those days. If Paul meant something unusual for the readers, he would need to specify. He did not specify anything, therefore the Hellenistic, mostly Gentile readers, could understand it properly.

 

[KevinT]

No

Luke 23


The Day of Preparation is Friday, the day before the Sabbath (Saturday) which begins when we would call it Friday Evening, remember the Hebrews start their day at evening rather than midnight.
So Jesus was crucified Thursday, buried on the Friday in the evening, was in the tomb over Saturday, and then Resurrected Sunday morningt.

The Hebrews count the day that they are on when marking "after 3 days", so it was "on the third day" as we would reckon it, so Friday, Saturday, and on Sunday, the 3rd day, He rose.

There is an entire good thread about the timing of the days of the weekend of crucifixion here. Let's not repeat all that here.



KT

 

[RDKirk]

But its appropriate to understand it as was common in those days. If Paul meant something unusual for the readers, he would need to specify. He did not specify anything, therefore the Hellenistic, mostly Gentile readers, could understand it properly.

I think Paul may have done exactly that with the term agape.

Agape is a rare word in secular sources of Koine Greek. It's rare enough that even secular scholars are forced to use Paul's definition. That suggests to me that Paul may have deliberately chosen that word because of its rare contemporary use and created his own definition, or at least substantially specified its definition, to give his audience a precise understanding of the concept he was defining.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

It most probably means that he was with Jesus in paradise on that exact day.

1. "Amen, I tell you today" is a nonexistent phrase in the Bible and also quite nonsensical.

2. There is plenty of instances of Jesus beginning his words with "Amen, I tell you", followed by the message - therefore there is no valid textual reason why this one should be different,

Its one of many things the SDA is wrong about.

Here is an article about the use of Amen, or Truly, it is used over 50 times in the Gospels, and it always is followed by a statement with no words in between. Truly, followed by comment. However, SDA's and JW's and Sabbath keeping Churches of God claim the comma should follow the word "today" and not "Truly". In just this one instance we are asked to believe Jesus changed the way he opened a statement with the word Truly.

This creates problems elsewhere though and I don't have all the answers, but I do know that putting the comma before today makes sense based on Jesus's use of the "Truly" or "Truly, Truly" words preceding statements. The synoptic Gospels used "Truly" once before the statement and the book of John used "Truly, Truly" before each statement.

Just a question, didn't the criminal know which day it was?

When Jesus Said, “Truly, Truly,” What Did He Mean? - ScriptureWay

What Did Jesus Mean?, “Truly, Truly,” “Verily, Verily,” “Amen, Amen,” Double Amen, Most Important Statements of Jesus, Born Again, Eternal Life, R.C. Sproul, Whitney V. Myers

www.scriptureway.com

 

[bling]

But he rested the next day, the Sabbath. So Crucifixion Friday?

KT

The "Day of Passover" was also a Sabbath day.

 

[th1bill]

We are mentally exercising in stupidity? The thief accepted Christ as Savior before he died and I see no need for him to be preached to before ascending into Heaven. In either case, does it matter? Yashuah emptied it and shut it down, that is my understanding.

 

[bling]

Here is the story of the Thief on the Cross from Luke:



But did Jesus go to paradise that day (Crucifixion Friday)? Didn't He rest, dead in the tomb until Resurrection morning (Sunday morning)?

I am SDA, which teaches Christian Mortalism, and I have always been taught that Christ Himself did not ascend to the Father until after His meeting with Mary on Sunday morning. So how could the thief have accompanied him to paradise that Friday night?

The answer I have been given is that a better translation would be:

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Apparently the original Greek did not contain commas, and the construction of the text is such that either translation is possible. And yet every translation listed here puts the comma BEFORE the 'today'.

I'll include the portion from the SDA Bible commentary on this passage below.



What do you think, were Jesus and the thief in Paradise on Friday evening?

Best wishes,

Kevin

I go to Biblegateway and have 61 different Bible English translations, all putting the common before today or presenting the verse with the meaning of Christ being with the thief that day. That is a lot more than 61 New Testament scholars agreeing, since most have groups of scholars agreeing doing the translation. If there is disagreement, lots of Bibles will give a foot note showing an alternative interpretation.

My question would be: Why did they all interpret this verse this way?

Controversial interpretations usually have lots of Google explanations, to why one over the other, but I cannot find them.

The OP gives us one scholar’s reason for putting the comma after today, but where are the justification by the tons of scholars putting the comma before today?

This wonderful righteous thief (after making a total turn around in minutes) asks a sincere question type statement: “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

If Jesus said, “I’ll keep you in mind, 3000 years from now, when I come into my Kingdom”, that would not be very reassuring.

The “Kingdom” being referred to by the thief, existed right then and Jesus being deity would be existing in the Kingdom right then, since it is a Spiritual Kingdom without walls and boundaries.

It has already been brought up, that the “today” used the way suggested would be unique in scripture and again look at the context: If Jesus had said just before: You have heard from the prophets of Old…” and then turn and said : “But today, I tell you…” that might really fit putting the comma after today, but that is not what Jesus was addressing.

If the comma comes after “today” it adds nothing to the meaning of the phrase and is a waste of Jesus’ very precious breath at the time.

Luke 16:22 Here is the way Jesus described what happened at the death of a righteous man, “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.

Good people are not brought to “judgement”, but to an Awards Assembly, so I do not know where exactly the thief and Jesus went, but I feel Jesus is calling it Paradise.

 

[timothyu]

It goes back to the original fact there was no punctuation in original scripture.

 

[Aaron112]

My question would be: Why did they all interpret this verse this way?

They did not know Scripture, nor the power of God, nor Jesus.

 

[KevinT]

The "Day of Passover" was also a Sabbath day.

I agree. I wasn't clear. I was meaning Friday of the Passover weekend. Friday was a preparation day, and Sabbath was the Passover.

KT

 

[bling]

They did not know Scripture, nor the power of God, nor Jesus.

And you do.
So, it was not an understandable error, but big time ignorance?

 

[bling]

I agree. I wasn't clear. I was meaning Friday of the Passover weekend. Friday was a preparation day, and Sabbath was the Passover.

KT

Some do think that Saturday was not only a Sabbath, but also the Day of Passover, but others see Friday being the Passover Sabbath followed by a Saturday Passover, mean Jesus was crucified on Thursday.

 

[bling]

It goes back to the original fact there was no punctuation in original scripture.

We might have to go back and look at why scholars considered one choice over another choice, for us to decide the most likely alternative.

 

[th1bill]

We might have to go back and look at why scholars considered one choice over another choice, for us to decide the most likely alternative.

Question; I'm not trying to be rude but instead the Teacher in me wants folks to seek. Why would I ever seek the thoughts of scholars if the Spirit of God resides in my heart?

 

[RDKirk]

Question; I'm not trying to be rude but instead the Teacher in me wants folks to seek. Why would I ever seek the thoughts of scholars if the Spirit of God resides in my heart?

Why did Apollos need to be more thoroughly taught the gospel by Aquila and Priscilla if the Spirit of God resided in his heart? Why is "teacher" an office of the Body of Christ? Why should "elder" even be an office in the Body of Christ, when we've all got the Spirit of God?

 

[th1bill]

Why did Apollos need to be more thoroughly taught the gospel by Aquila and Priscilla if the Spirit of God resided in his heart? Why is "teacher" an office of the Body of Christ? Why should "elder" even be an office in the Body of Christ, when we've all got the Spirit of God?

That one is easy. They did not possess the presence of Ruah yet. Most members of any Church Assembly do not appreciate the more difficult points of scripture, even with the officer from the office of the Teacher. They lack the presence of Ruah, the Holy Spirit. At some point in his education, it appears that Apollos received the indwelling.

 

[KevinT]

I go to Biblegateway and have 61 different Bible English translations, all putting the common before today or presenting the verse with the meaning of Christ being with the thief that day. That is a lot more than 61 New Testament scholars agreeing, since most have groups of scholars agreeing doing the translation. If there is disagreement, lots of Bibles will give a foot note showing an alternative interpretation.

My question would be: Why did they all interpret this verse this way?

Good point.

This wonderful righteous thief (after making a total turn around in minutes) asks a sincere question type statement: “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.

If Jesus said, “I’ll keep you in mind, 3000 years from now, when I come into my Kingdom”, that would not be very reassuring.

Luke 16:22 Here is the way Jesus described what happened at the death of a righteous man, “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.

Good people are not brought to “judgement”, but to an Awards Assembly, so I do not know where exactly the thief and Jesus went, but I feel Jesus is calling it Paradise.

So your understanding is that both Jesus and the thief were conscious in heaven/paradise that night?

Kevin

 

[RDKirk]

That one is easy. They did not possess the presence of Ruah yet. Most members of any Church Assembly do not appreciate the more difficult points of scripture, even with the officer from the office of the Teacher. They lack the presence of Ruah, the Holy Spirit. At some point in his education, it appears that Apollos received the indwelling.

Scripture says differently about Apollos:

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the Spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

 

[KevinT]

They lack the presence of Ruah, the Holy Spirit.

I have not heard of "Ruah" before. What is the origin of this term?

KT

 

[timothyu]

We might have to go back and look at why scholars considered one choice over another choice, for us to decide the most likely alternative.

Perhaps a doctrine of man already having have been created so a match up was required? Odd though Jesus would say 'today' when the Kingdom had not yet come nor had resurrection. But I guess that didn't matter many decades later when punctuation was added. But I guess that didn't matter to a growing gentile church more interested in building a kingdom in earth for themselves to run than promoting the real one.