Did the incarnation happen upon conception or birth?

[RDKirk]

Oh come on, what kind of reading comprehension is this? Whether Jesus was a physical being? When I talk of him teaching in the temple? Come on - it's just a smeary thing to say that.

I don't think I need to believe anything about how the zygote that was born to (by) Mary and known as Jesus came to be, including what sperm of whom united with what ovum. Presumably Mary's egg - they didn't have advanced egg implanting in those days.
Why do you speculate on what sperm of whom, and why should I speculate about that? Clearly the Bible does not tell us, and I am content with that.
We do not require any fabulous tales, whether concocted within the Christian community or without. Enough to know Jesus the Christ was born of the virgin Mary (in accord with prophecy, including that of angel visitation in the months prior to His birth), and was the Holy Son of God incarnate on earth.

So now, your turn.
edit: Not that I am requesting you to speculate, you understand.

So then, you don't want to think about it and you don't want anyone else to think about it either.

Okay.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

So then, you don't want to think about it and you don't want anyone else to think about it either.

Okay.

What do you mean? I thunked it all through.
Is my view too simple to understand, or something?

It's you who has not said anything substantive.
I told you pretty much the entirety of the way I see it - should I take what you have given as the entirety of what you are able to say about it?

Or can you give some kind of defense of what appears to me to be a totally unsubstantiated myth?

 

[ViaCrucis]

We are NOT told (by the authority of Scripture) that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary at conception. Isn't that just yours and others fabrication, a myth and speculation at best?

When the angel says to Mary that she will conceive and bear a son, she asks, "How?" to which the angel says, the Holy Spirit will overshadow her, the power of the Most High will come upon her. How will Mary conceive and bear? The Holy Spirit will accomplish this.

Is the idea of "mother of divinity" like being a physical mother, mother of the flesh? That is, is there a parallel between giving birth to a baby, and giving birth to divinity?
What is divinity that it could be given birth to? Is it not far beyond flesh and without parallel (to say the least)?
Is it not like unto my writing, say, mentality that develops and is found in adulthood in the case of a divine man, the one unique, ONE AND ONLY EVER CHRIST we like to believe? Spiritual mental selfhood of Godman.
Not the sort of reality that is given birth to, not baby and baby flesh anything, but coming through developed mind,
and shared with others through language (WORD).

edit: Was not anything that might be thought to be of divinity, in Christ, first noticed at age 12, from what we know?
(NOT merely what somebody might have said about "the babe" before that time.)

Mary doesn't give birth to "divinity" neither does she give birth to "humanity", Mary conceived and give birth to a child, a person. That person is both God and man, Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Mary doesn't give birth to "divinity" neither does she give birth to "humanity", Mary conceived and give birth to a child, a person. That person is both God and man, Jesus Christ.

She gives birth to flesh, rather than spirit.
Except the flesh, the person, may be never lacking in spirit - so she gives birth to spirit as much as to flesh?
I expect Via C has a better way of expressing whatever may be the truth of that ...

Mary gave birth to a Son, to a man to a human being...

Yah I think you are right, no one gives birth to divinity, NO ONE GIVES BIRTH TO GOD.
The God part of the GODman does not require birth to be where it wants to be.
Flesh and being a human requires birth - God does not, that is, birth is a human feature and not relevant to divine indwelling.

What thinkest thou?

 

[ViaCrucis]

She gives birth to flesh, rather than spirit.
Except the flesh, the person, may be never lacking in spirit - so she gives birth to spirit as much as to flesh?
I expect Via C has a better way of expressing whatever may be the truth of that ...

Mary gave birth to a Son, to a man to a human being...

Yah I think you are right, no one gives birth to divinity, NO ONE GIVES BIRTH TO GOD.
The God part of the GODman does not require birth to be where it wants to be.
Flesh and being a human requires birth - God does not, that is, birth is a human feature and not relevant to divine indwelling.

What thinkest thou?

By saying Mary doesn't give birth to "divinity" I mean that Mary didn't give birth to a nature. I mean exactly what I said, Mary gave birth to a person, that person is Jesus Christ, who is of two natures, God and man, without confusion or separation. What is conceived in Mary's womb is Jesus, God and man.

Mary is the holy and blessed mother of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

When the angel says to Mary that she will conceive and bear a son, she asks, "How?" to which the angel says, the Holy Spirit will overshadow her, the power of the Most High will come upon her. How will Mary conceive and bear? The Holy Spirit will accomplish this.

It's actually the Holy Ghost (Spirit) that will come upon her, and the power of the Highest will overshadow. Could those be the same thing? That it makes no difference which agency each of those actions is assigned to?
Meaning, "the power of the Most High" overshadowing her, simply is the Holy Ghost upon her ... The conjunction "and" (kai) suggests ... probably 2 different things ...
But that's sorta betwixt and between?

Are you overstating it a bit when you speak of "conceive and bear" here?
Is there any need to claim that the Holy Spirit will accomplish birth?
Once Mary is impregnated, has conceived, is pregnant, is there any prediction of prophecy or an angel that requires any more than the normal functioning of a woman body to occur as presented in Scripture?

Perhaps the substance of verse 35 is the last part - what is actually going to happen, what it means in terms of understanding, this Holy Ghost "interference," this God POWER SPIRIT shadow stuff. Over-layering, that only results in THE MOST EXALTED NAME?
And with regard to the conceiving, she has this Spirit Shadow... well when does she actually experience it, if ever. That is, it could be a "presence" (only in word since it is about what something is to be, or "shall be," called) i.e to influence how people viewed the pregnancy and birth.
Is that perhaps to take away from people's minds any idea of "sin" (bastardhood, fornication, etc.)? Any tinge of bastardhood would be countered by the story of THE MOST HIGHEST HOLY BLESSING, would it not?

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's actually the Holy Ghost (Spirit) that will come upon her, and the power of the Highest will overshadow. Could those be the same thing? That it makes no difference which agency each of those actions is assigned to?
Meaning, "the power of the Most High" overshadowing her, simply is the Holy Ghost upon her ... The conjunction "and" (kai) suggests ... probably 2 different things ...
But that's sorta betwixt and between?

Are you overstating it a bit when you speak of "conceive and bear" here?
Is there any need to claim that the Holy Spirit will accomplish birth?
Once Mary is impregnated, has conceived, is pregnant, is there any prediction of prophecy or an angel that requires any more than the normal functioning of a woman body to occur as presented in Scripture?

Perhaps the substance of verse 35 is the last part - what is actually going to happen, what it means in terms of understanding, this Holy Ghost "interference," this God POWER SPIRIT shadow stuff. Over-layering, that only results in THE MOST EXALTED NAME?
And with regard to the conceiving, she has this Spirit Shadow... well when does she actually experience it, if ever. That is, it could be a "presence" (only in word since it is about what something is to be, or "shall be," called) i.e to influence how people viewed the pregnancy and birth.
Is that perhaps to take away from people's minds any idea of "sin" (bastardhood, fornication, etc.)? Any tinge of bastardhood would be countered by the story of THE MOST HIGHEST HOLY BLESSING, would it not?

You're doing an awful lot of tap dancing here.

-CryptoLUtheran

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

By saying Mary doesn't give birth to "divinity" I mean that Mary didn't give birth to a nature. I mean exactly what I said, Mary gave birth to a person, that person is Jesus Christ, who is of two natures, God and man, without confusion or separation. What is conceived in Mary's womb is Jesus, God and man.
Mary is the holy and blessed mother of God.
-CryptoLutheran

Is conceived ...
Is Jesus ...
Now some think there is a Jesus at conception, but personally I think it does not make sense to talk of pregnancy that way.
What is conceived, and what is Born? The conception itself is an invisible unity of two alive human cells which never could amount to a person. Having not even one arm or one leg of a person, one heart or head, having NONE of that, how could something without even a single organ be a person, a human being real animal?

SO there is no conceived Jesus in the sense that Jesus is there at conception.
What was in Mary's womb at conception was not Jesus, only precursors, nothing beyond a blueprint for a new person that if followed, at the end of the womb construction process, at birth, will "offspring" forth a totally new total being.

One thing about the "mother of God" stuff, one should be careful about one's definition of "mother," how one identifies "mother."
A fetus does NOT a mother make. There are no fetus mothers. Only at actual birth does a pregnant woman become a real mother of a real child.
And on the "Mary is ... " bit, usually when we speak of someone who has "passed on" we say "was the mother of," etc. Is Mary different?

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

You're doing an awful lot of tap dancing here.

-CryptoLUtheran

It is important to understand what was happening and what "might have been happening" in the case of the conceiving and birth of the Virgin Mary.

How is one to understand, "The Holy Spirit will accomplish this." (Your claim.)
What did the Holy Spirit actually do.? I think we are not told - so is one not engaging in a lot of speculation if one goes from there to talk of "sperm created by God," for instance, which would be a very unique happening."
I do not say you said that, but what does your claim really mean, what should we take it to say? Is there not a warrant you give for speculation of that sort by leaving us with the idea that the Holy Spirit is somehow acting directly on human flesh, modifying realities of real human (being) formation?

In what way do you think the Holy Spirit, in the case of the conception and birth effected by Mary's body, modified physical (biological) reality, if you think that happened?
edit: Now it's your turn to tap dance.