Did the incarnation happen upon conception or birth?

[Saved.By.Grace]

But God does have a mother, because Jesus--who is God--has Mary as His mother. Mary is the mother of God because Mary's Child is God.



Nobody thinks Mary "contributed" to Jesus' eternal Deity. Motherhood is not restricted to merely "contribution", motherhood is bearing a child for nine months, giving birth, and raising that child--Mary is very much all these things.

God was in Mary's womb for nine months. Mary gave birth to God after those nine months, and God was the infant she wrapped in swaddling. It was God who suckled at her breast. It was God's diapers that she changed. It was God that she taught to walk, and talk.

No, Mary is not the source of Christ's Deity (and nobody thinks otherwise), but Mary is the mother of Jesus, not just Jesus' humanity, she is mother of Jesus the Person, she is the mother of He who is God-and-man.



And because the two natures are undivided in the one Person of Jesus, Mary is Theotokos and mother of God. Because the one Person of Jesus is God. Mary gave birth to God.

-CryptoLutheran

And exactly where in the Holy Bible did you get this from? "God was in Mary's womb for nine months. Mary gave birth to God after those nine months". So Mary must be before "God" if she gave birth to Him? You are trying to use Roman Catholic "theology" to understand what the Bible says about the Person of Jesus Christ. And this is not what the Bible says anywhere.

 

[Monk Brendan]

No, this is "church theology" and does not reflect the teachings of the Holy Bible. Mary did not contribute to the "divine nature" of Jesus Christ, but only the "human nature". Just because Mary bore Jesus the God-Man in her womb for 9 months, does not allow for this unbiblical term to be justified. We should not be interested in church terms, especially if they are not founded on the Holy Bible.

I SHOWED Scripture! But you know, just because you're not happy with the Scripture shows more about yourself than about me.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

And I take it a

step further.. Suggesting based upon scripture that Mary did not contribute to his human nature either.

Adam was fully human ..where did he get his human nature then ? His mother..?
And there's the point.

Adam was created by Almighty God. Jesus Christ was not as He IS Almighty God from eternity. He part-took of "human nature" from that of Mary at the time His was conceived in the womb of Mary. Both Matthew 1:16 and Luke 1:35 chow very clearly in the Greek text, that Jesus Christ was born "out of" the nature of Mary, and not simply "through", so as not to part-take of anything from her.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Although Jesus Christ is indeed One Person, yet He has two "natures", one with a beginning and the other eternal. The Person of Jesus Christ is one of the deepest of mystries, which no human mind can ever grasp. Mary could not contribute to Jesus' Deity, and therefore the term, "mother of God", is moot.

But if Jesus the baby was not God before Birth, why did John the Baptist leap in his mother's womb?

If you don't like the term Theotokos, then don't use it. But don't criticize if I do!

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

I SHOWED Scripture! But you know, just because you're not happy with the Scripture shows more about yourself than about me.

It is very easy to find "Scriptures" for ones beliefs, but they don't always agree with what you may say! Take off your "catholic" lens and read that the Holy Bible actually says, and you will see the error!

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

But if Jesus the baby was not God before Birth, why did John the Baptist leap in his mother's womb?

If you don't like the term Theotokos, then don't use it. But don't criticize if I do!

When did I say that Jesus Christ was not God before He was born? I criticize the term, not because you use it, but anyone who uses it as though it or what it teaches is what the Bible says. It is "man's theology" and has nothing to do with Bible Truth. None of the arguments that I have seen here show that the Bible teaches that Mary was "the mother of God", which in itself is an absurd notion!

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

anyway, its good night from Old England!

 

[Monk Brendan]

When did I say that Jesus Christ was not God before He was born? I criticize the term, not because you use it, but anyone who uses it as though it or what it teaches is what the Bible says. It is "man's theology" and has nothing to do with Bible Truth. None of the arguments that I have seen here show that the Bible teaches that Mary was "the mother of God", which in itself is an absurd notion!

The Scripture that we (myself and other people responding on this thread) quoted are not enough? There is more, much more, but you seem to want none of it.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Is there more than one incarnation? Jesus did not walk as an embryo in the garden nor was he conceived a full grown man. When the power of the most high overshadowed Mary certainly incarnation occurred.

Some Christians also say that when the three youths were fed to the fire, and they were seen, walking around with a fourth, the fourth was Jesus.

 

[Monk Brendan]

since we are constrained by time and you seem to agree there is only one incarnation then can we agree it was in Mary's womb otherwise to which incarnation do you refer to?

But God has never been, and isn't now, and never will be constrained by time! Does that make sense?

 

[Alithis]

The verses

Adam was created by Almighty God. Jesus Christ was not as He IS Almighty God from eternity. He part-took of "human nature" from that of Mary at the time His was conceived in the womb of Mary. Both Matthew 1:16 and Luke 1:35 chow very clearly in the Greek text, that Jesus Christ was born "out of" the nature of Mary, and not simply "through", so as not to part-take of anything from her.

The verse you list don't say that though.
That's just church tradition too.

 

[jax5434]

You still don't get it? I am talking about the fact that Jesus took on His human nature from Mary at conception, and not after His birth from Mary. I have never discussed whether Jesus came in the flesh or not. Philippians 2:5-8, shows that Jesus always existed as Almighty God, and then at His Incarnation (conception) took upon Himself the nature of real man, while retaining His Deity, thus becoming the God-Man. I am sorry if this is too difficult to grasp, I could try to explain it better if you want.

I understand what our saying. I'm saying that what is essential is that you believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. Whether that occurred at conception or at birth or somewhere in between does not matter as far as our salvation is concerned.
God Bless
Jax.

PS. I typed this very slowly , hopefully you can grasp what I
am saying.

I can be condescending also.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

since we are constrained by time and you seem to agree there is only one incarnation then can we agree it was in Mary's womb otherwise to which incarnation do you refer to?

And exactly where in the Holy Bible did you get this from? "God was in Mary's womb for nine months. Mary gave birth to God after those nine months". So Mary must be before "God" if she gave birth to Him? You are trying to use Roman Catholic "theology" to understand what the Bible says about the Person of Jesus Christ. And this is not what the Bible says anywhere.

Of course, His name is Emmanuel, Matt 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”Luke 2:11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Who else could have come from Mary but the Son of God. And I am a baptist, but one does not have to be a RC to know that she gave birth to God the Son. Who else would He have been? No one is saying that it was His beginning, He is eternal, but came to earth as a man, that is not new doctrine, it is the focus of the whole bible. Tell us who it was if it was not the One spoken of in Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

 

[DamianWarS]

Some object to calling Mary the mother of God (or Theotokos for those who prefer the obscurity of Greek). Some of those who object argue that Mary was mother of Jesus flesh but not mother of his divinity. The problem with that argument is that Jesus is one person and Mary gave birth to Jesus who is a whole person.

Some object to calling Mary the mother of God and argue that God entered Jesus at the time of or after his birth. The problem with that argument is that it contradicts scripture.

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.​

The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and her child was holy from the moment of his conception.

I don't have issue to what theotokos represents but I think the language is irresponsible (and even more so Mother of God) I actually agree with Nestorius on this one and think christotokos is theologically more accurate. Mary gave birth to a baby that was inseparably divine and flesh and although you could emphasise the divine and call her theotokos this de-emphasises the flesh. It also would be irresponsible to call her anthropotokos (man-bearer) even though Mary did give birth to a child who was 100% flesh but again this de-emphasises the divine. Christ uniquely represents both the divine and the flesh without compromising them.

 

[DamianWarS]

there seems to be some who see the incarnation was at birth not conception yet no one has voted this way. 100% voters say incarnation. How come those who say "birth" are so shy?

 

[PanDeVida]

In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

The Incarnation of Christ happened at Conception, the moment Virgin Mary said Yes!

To say it happened after birth, is to say that Jesus was a blob for the first 9 months, as most, if not all abortionists believe.

 

[DamianWarS]

The Incarnation of Christ happened at Conception, the moment Virgin Mary said Yes!

To say it happened after birth, is to say that Jesus was a blob for the first 9 months, as most, if not all abortionists believe.

to be fair the options are "Conception" or "Birth"... there is no option "After Birth" but I get your point

 

[redleghunter]

In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

For Jesus to be fully human He had to share a common development. Meaning the Incarnation happened exactly when “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;" (Luke 1:35).

I oft bring up the Incarnation in Christian only pro life discussions. And I share your surprise at the answers I receive. To defend their arbitrary and subjective definitions of "personhood" pro choice Christians will adopt heretical Christology to fit their abortion views. Or not know they do so.

Therefore in order to maintain an orthodox and Biblical Christology one must embrace the Incarnation at conception.

 

[redleghunter]

In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

100% thus far have voted Incarnation.

This is general theology so not surprised. If you posited this in Controversial Christian Theology you would have some differing views I gather.

 

[redleghunter]

Traditional Jewish thought was that the soul entered the body upon taking its first breath

Source? Quite curious.