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Did the Early Church Fathers teach "Calvinism?"

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by BABerean2, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Was not grace the kindness shown in offering us the Kingdom?
     
  2. reformed05

    reformed05 Member

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    God doesn't GIVE us grace. He has grace towards us. Saved by grace means salvation is not, cannot be earned,it is by grace. Instead of justice, we receive mercy in salvation. The point with reformed theology in irresistible grace is that it can't be resisted. If God wants to show mercy He will show mercy. The I of Tulip, isolated like that without expounding first of the T, the U and the L can't be properly understood or explained, as one flows into the next. Am not asking you to do that expounding, just saying. I will go through it if you want but it will have to be later as the timer dinged on my oven.
    Anyway, who would want to thwart God's purpose to send them to Heaven? Only someone who had not been born again from Above, and thus not only able to believe but also willing.
     
  3. reformed05

    reformed05 Member

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    sorry for th wait. The idea of the elect in Reformed Theology has nothing to do with the election of Israel. We acknowledge that Israel was a nation/ people chosen by God. He chose that nation to bring forth the Messiah, He chose that nation/people to reveal Himself to in a covenant and saving way. Israel was and IS a chosen nation. The Bible tells us that those who are in Christ are ADOPTED into Israel.
    The concept of the elect in Reformed Theology is taken from the New Testament scriptures only. There are too many passages that speak of God's election of believers to list here. When I was in the free will camp there were many I saw and didn't know how to line them up with what I had been taught so began to gloss over them which I think is a very common thing. Now I cannot miss them . They are everywhere. I believe many of the ECFs saw it. Certainly the Apostles taught it. During the dark ages much was lost an d distorted and the Reformers sat down to get back to Biblical doctrine. And it remained the norm until recently, towards the end of the John Edward s era when Armenias ' s views were brought back and with it the altar call (which is fine as long s gospel content precedes it) and all kinds of heresy entered our churches.
    So no, it had nothing to do with Israel's election.
     
  4. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Oh no, you saw fit to quote me from a post made in August :eek:

    I was going to post a link to refute your opinions because although I can think of a few verses in Romans, I do not want to engage in quibbling over scripture at this time. I have decided against it because the quibbling could still occur but about the link. Sorry, but it is fruitless.

    2 Timothy 2:14
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
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  5. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    Jesus chose his apostles because of their obedience.

    Look at John 5:40 which you've quoted above. There is Jesus telling men that they refuse, of their own accord, not to obey. This "willingness" is their own choice. If it isn't, then there was never a need to preach the gospel. Those who are given the special sauce will find God, those who God doesn't provide the "will" will go to hell.

    None of those passages give any credence to the idea that men are imbued with salvation or some special ability prior to making a choice of their own free will to follow Jesus. As a mater of fact, Peter was very specific about when the Holy Spirit is given. It is after obedience, not before.

    Jesus commanded people to do things and some of them did not do them. Those who obeyed he called friends. At no point did he ever say something like, "it's a good thing God changed your heart so you could be a Christian."

    In fact he lamented when people refused (of their own will) to obey his commands.
    Now, Jesus also repudiated the idea of "total depravity" - a phrase never found in the Bible - by calling Abel, "Righteous."
    Here's Abel, one generation from Adam, being called Righteous by Jesus himself. If Adam brought physical corruption into all the following generations through sexual relations, Abel could never have been considered righteous. Nor could Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth. They should have been tainted with this strange thing called "original sin." Yet, when the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write his gospel, it appears he forgot to tell him about John Calvin's or Augustine's views on the subject.

    Paul called himself blameless under the law. When Paul quoted the old testament, "There is no one righteous, no not one", he was quoting hyperbole. He knew it was hyperbole because there were plenty of righteous men written about in the Old Testament, Abraham and Noah two early examples. And why were they righteous? Because they obeyed the will of God.
     
  6. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    God's grace toward mankind was the gospel. Grace isn't a special sauce that he bestows on some and not others. The idea of limited atonement is one not ever described in the Bible. Not even in the old testament did God show partiality. The very definition of limited atonement is partiality.

    The meaning behind the words "I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy" was not a statement of arbitrary grace, it was a statement of authority. Man doesn't make the rules, God does. So in order to obtain salvation a person has to conform to what was preached.

    Everyone is eligible as Christ made known.

    If salvation is limited to those who God "chooses" in some arbitrary, magical injection of the Spirit, then:

    1. Paul was a liar. (For there is no partiality with God)
    2. There is no necessity to preach anyone the gospel. In fact the command to preach it is unnecessary, therefore, Jesus was misleading his disciples.
     
  7. reformed05

    reformed05 Member

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  8. reformed05

    reformed05 Member

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    I have said this so many times it is becoming frustrating. God's choices, whether of people or nations or anything else are NEVER ARBITRARY. Was His choice of Israel or Jacob or David or anything arbitrary? What an unreliable God He would be if He were even CAPABLE of being arbitrary. Such a thing does not EXIST in Him. THINK ABOUT THAT. He has a REASON, and the only thing we know about His reason is that NO MERIT IS FOUND in the one He chooses. It is not a MAGICAL INJECTION OF THE SPIRIT as you say, once again attempting to trivialize beliefs that are different from yours.
    As to the assumption that if God chooses there is no reason to preach the gospel that is a statement devoid of All reasoning. How can anyone possibly believe (the necessity for salvation) something they have never heard? "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they belive in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" Romans 10:14,15
     
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  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Is anyone here today descendant from anyone there in the first century or so ?
     
  10. reformed05

    reformed05 Member

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    A P. S. To Al
    When people are criticizing Reformed Theology they throw that WORD arbitrary around sarcastically as as though it were a big intellectual word. It simply means random for no paticular reason.
     
  11. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Quite possibly. The British Isles and Europe (hence North and South America) are descendants of the scattered 10 tribe nation of Israel NNE of Judah.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  12. Al Touthentop

    Al Touthentop Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure that you are not preaching Calvanism. So far we agree. It's as if you're arguing against what I've written by agreeing.

    Calvanism does not accept free will, posits the doctrine of original sin or sin nature and says that God's election is arbitrary in relation to a man's will. You seem to be defending something you don't fully understand. Are you defending Calvinsim?
     
  13. reformed05

    reformed05 Member

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  14. reformed05

    reformed05 Member

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    Al
    I was not preaching Calvinism or anything else. I am Reformed, do not believe man has free will in regard to choosing salvation,because of the fall, I believe in original sin which is not referring to the first sin but the result of the first sin. It originates IN us. We are born with sin IN us. I have no idea how you interpreted what I said as agreeing with you. I was not and am not defending what you call Calvinism. I have no obligation or desire to do so. I was merely coming against your statement that Calvinists believe that if God CHOOSES people His choice is ARBITRARY. Calvinists do NOT SAY THAT OR BELIEVE THAT!! If His choice was arbitrary that would mean He had no REASON for His choice. That is what ARBITRARY MEANS! God chooses AND He has a REASON for why He chooses who He does. He is not sitting in Heaven saying arbitrarily, "this one,and maybe that one and how about that one over there" We don't KNOW His reason,we only know it isn't because of any merit in us.
    Your statement that Calvinists believe God's election is arbitrary in relation to man's will doesn't even make any sense. What does that even mean?
    I understand Reformed Theology very well. It is you I think who don't understand what I am saying. At all. Not even the meaning of the word arbitrary.
     
  15. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    No, the Ante-Nicene father did not teach Calvinism. Augustine was a Manichean before becoming a Christian. He held to Fatalism and he read that into the Scripture to come up with his doctrines.
     
  16. Joy

    Joy Well-Known Member Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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  17. crossnote

    crossnote Berean Supporter

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    Was it Paul or the Holy Spirit?

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    (2Ti 3:16)
     
  18. crossnote

    crossnote Berean Supporter

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    If we don't know God's reason 'why' He chooses, how do we know for sure He has a reason or that it isn't arbitrary?
    (Note: I'm not arguing the theology on this point, I am questioning the logic.)
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of course it was the Holy Spirit. God's word is Spirit.
     
  20. reformed05

    reformed05 Member

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    because of everything God has revealed about Himself. His character and attributes. Because of who He is, it is impossible for Him to be arbitrary or without a reason in anything. Otherwise He wouldn't be God.
     
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