Did Paul Do This?

[Big Drew]

Have you read this: http://www.barriewilson.com/pdf/Taking-Paul-at-His-Word.pdf

The author may not be Christian but he is a university professor with a Phd in theology; I was impressed with this paper but disappointed with others he wrote.

Interesting read. Thanks for that. One thing I did have to wonder when reading it...the author said that Paul never presents any of Jesus' teachings in his epistles...but in 1 Corinthians Paul goes into great detail on the Lord's Supper...there may be others, but that one came to mind right away, since I was reading that chapter earlier today.

 

[Big Drew]

This article is an overview of NT Wright's view on Paul, for any that are interested.

Warning: Not a short read.

Surprised by N.T. Wright

 

[Christina C]

This article is an overview of NT Wright's view on Paul, for any that are interested.

Warning: Not a short read.

Surprised by N.T. Wright

Would like to read but I think you have to subscribe to the magazine to read the article? I can only access a very short section of it.

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus said, He wouldn't do anything unless He told the apostles first; Paul was a surprise to them; Paul is the prophet who testifies of himself.

I peeked at the PDF of Barrie. My perception is he does not understand Paul, to keep it simple.

And Jesus Himself was always surprising the disciples. But there were things He did tell them, in advance. And a problem has been, all along, how people have been able to misunderstood Him and Paul and Peter and James and others.

I find that Paul's writings and actions are a match with all Jesus taught and did, and with what other New Testament writers have given us. But how we understand him can contradict what they mean. Because we humans are not perfect, plus we have our motives and where we are trying to take people. There are people who are trying to bring people to their understanding imperfect and to their groups.

And I have been a loner and loser, socially; so I have tried to bring people's attention to me. Except I have used more generally accepted Bible-related ideas to get on people's good side. So I still need more of God's correction so I find out how to love, and not only how to argue myself right.

"But you have said you know you can fool your own self and not even know it; so how can you be sure you have got things straight?"

That's right; I can fool myself; plus, I would say any of us humans can be mistaken, however, and not know it. So, I offer myself to God, for Him to do what He wants with me. And I keep finding more and more connections of Jesus and Paul and Peter and James and Jude and John. And often I get much better than I have been able to see and understand. And what I get means how much more correction I myself need in order to get more real with God and more genuine in His love; I do not get only intellectual stuff so I can prove myself right against others!

What I am noticing is not only how to resolve factual and literary conflicts which people have with each other, but I keep discovering how Jesus and our New Testament writers are saying grace works and how God means for us to become in our character and find out how to love. "The spiritual meaning matches."

And so, Sparow, Barrie might not be relating with this spiritual meaning, of how God means for us to become and love. He appears to make claims, but at a glance I did not see him say anything about how Jesus and Paul mean for us to become spiritually in our nature and how we please God and relate with one another Christians and love any and all people.

What divisive people can do is to call attention to historical claims of facts, plus literary problems, but not to how we need to become in God's own love. So, their issues and arguing . . . maybe on both sides of an argument . . . can be a design play by Satan to keep people weak in useless arguing self-favoritistic, instead of first concentrating on how to seek God for Himself, how to please Him, and how to relate in love. They isolate themselves, instead, with isolated combinations of scriptures and claims of historical facts and literal interpretation problems . . . often when ones, anyway, don't even believe the Bible should be interpreted literally!

And I find the Bible is designed, among other things, to bring out people's motives (Hebrews 4:12). Ones not first into seeking God and seeking His correction to find out how to love are going to use the Bible to call attention elsewhere.

But, like I offer, I keep finding matches > one example > what different writers say about how to please God >

Peter says, "rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

Paul says to, "aspire to lead a quiet life", in 1 Thessalonians 4:11. And Paul says to pray for people, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence." (in 1 Timothy 2:1-4) So, Paul is helping us to know how to be quiet . . . in godliness and reverence, while caring in prayer with hope for any and all people (which matches, by the way, with how Jesus wants us to love any and all people) . . . not only giving people the silent treatment and being quiet in that way.

And with this, James gives us description of how God's wisdom "from above" is > including "peaceable" and "willing to yield" which would fit with how to be quiet in God's gentle and quiet love.

Plus, Paul says plenty about not giving in to lusts and not letting things and people have power over us (including 1 Corinthians 6:12) . . . so we can be deeply and nicely and pleasantly quiet, instead. And Jesus, of course, has said things against giving in to lusts. To the Thessalonians he says "not to soon be shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter", in 2 Thessalonians 2:2. And Jesus says "Do not let your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." (in John 14:27)

This is all related to how we need to become quiet in God's love, including so we have the almighty power of God to protect us from how fear would violate us > and this matches, then, with what John also has said in his first epistle >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

This means in God's love with His almighty power to drive out fear. So, Paul and Jesus and John and James are talking about what is possible only with God. And so Satan will have people calling attention to issues which keep our attention away from this. So, @Big Drew, you can test people and groups by how much they call attention to all which is possible with God and how the grace of His love works in us, versus how much they are trying to prove themselves right in comparison with other people.

2 Corinthians 12:10

 

[Big Drew]

Would like to read but I think you have to subscribe to the magazine to read the article? I can only access a very short section of it.

I'm able to access and not a subscriber. There are numbered sections at the bottom of the page, 1-8. Were you able to see those?

 

[Christina C]

I'm able to access and not a subscriber. There are numbered sections at the bottom of the page, 1-8. Were you able to see those?

Unfortunately not. I just got a message saying "you have reached the end of this article preview" and saying that if I wanted to read more I had to subscribe. Sometimes subscriptions are free, but when I clicked on the link it gave subscription prices.

 

[Big Drew]

Unfortunately not. I just got a message saying "you have reached the end of this article preview" and saying that if I wanted to read more I had to subscribe. Sometimes subscriptions are free, but when I clicked on the link it gave subscription prices.

Bummer...I'll see if I can find another source.

 

[John 1720]

I actually agree with him. If you look at Paul's commission it states, "go to the kings and gentiles and the children of Israel." Notice the two bold "and"(s) there? The first is kai, the word for "and." The second is "te," which is the word for both or even also. And gentiles (ethnos) is also nations. So... a retranslation... "go to the kings and nations both the children of Israel." If you place your cursor here over Genesis 35:11 you'll see Jacob's seed prophesied as, "nations and kings" which are the "children of Israel" (Jacob).

Couple that with messiah saying, "I have not been sent BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel" and him also sending his disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel... then that is where the weight of his mission was. (I believe)

Hello Ken,

That's a major context switch with respect to the almost 2000 years of Christians following the mandate of the Great Commission. We have been on the mandate to bring the message of the Gospel to every nation since Pentecost. So the implications would be staggeringly exclusive and I believe the Bible, in its total context, is quite inclusive of all ethne' - ethnic people. The evidence for inclusivity (active inclusion) is found everywhere in the Bible starting in Genesis.

INCLUSIVITY:

Jesus taught us to go to every tongue, tribe and ethnic origin - all the people groups of the earth not just the lost tribes of Israel. Abraham would be the grandfather of Jacob in the flesh, whom God renamed Yisra'el, Israel; God Prevails.

• Gen 32:28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

BLESSED TO BE A BLESSING - who will Abraham's seed bless?

God promised to make Abraham's seed into a great nation and would bless him so that he would be a blessing.

• Gen 12:2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing.

He would be a blessing because "all" of the families of the earth would be blessed in him.

• Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Blessed to be a blessing to all the families of the earth

The implication being that ALL the families of the earth would be blessed through his seed. I would identify his seed as Christ in the flesh, both descended from the line of David and the Spirit was the Son of God. He proclai God later gives Abraham a picture of what that looks like as He covenants with him. His fleshly progeny would include more nations than Israel in fact "many" nations and we see that today.

• Gen 17:4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.

• Gen 17:6 “I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.

Abraham not only the fleshly Grandfather of Israel but the spiritual Father of the faithful

But God also makes clear that He is not only speaking of the seed of Abraham according to the flesh but also according to the seed of his faith. Paul later clarifies this point as we shall see. The seed of his faith includes "all the nations of the earth" and not only Abraham's fleshly progeny. We shouldn't overlook God's final promise to Abraham coming in close proximity to God asking him to make the ultimate sacrifice, which runs parallel to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

• 1Ti 2:5c-6 Jesus Christ who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Abraham by obedience proved to God that he would not withhold his true son of promise from God. Neither would God withhold His only beloved Son for our salvation. We therefore are also the blessed of God according to His covenant with Abraham, in essence sons and daughter of Abraham according to the promise.

All the nations shall be blessed by his obedience - the children of faith

• Gen 22:17-18 "blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
• Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
• Rom 4:12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

God repeated this blessing to his son Isaac when he went to Beersheba,

• Gen 26:24 And the LORD appeared to him the same night and said, "I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham's sake."

and again to Abraham's grandson Jacob.

• Gen 28:13-14 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: “I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

The Lord met Jacob and changed his name to Israel - regarded as a theophany of Christ

• Gen 32:28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

So we have established that the Abrahamic blessing was for his progeny (Israel) who was to then become a blessing to the nations (ethne' a.k.a. people groups). But we haven't unpacked the how yet.


The fleshly seed and Spiritual Seed Promised is revealed. Christ reveals the who and when as Him and now. However, the what and how is yet to be revealed in the cross and resurrection.

Jesus reiterates the blessing of salvation is of the Jews (Israel) to the Samaritan woman at the well. The Samaritans, even today, are descended from the northern tribes, especially the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh but were considered by the southern Judeans to have apotheosized. In the passage below Jesus seems to agree with the Judeans that the Samaritans do not understand the covenant and salvation is of the Jews. However, he also infers that a new hour is coming when true worshipers will worship God in both Spirit and Truth. Jesus is speaking about the spiritual seed that will ultimately comes from His death and resurrection. The lady, grounded in Samaritan dogma clearly is not on the same page with the Judean's with respect to their worship. Many pagan elements had crept into the Northern tribes, including this sect, whereas the south was more grounded in the Truth of the Law and Prophets. However their is a redemptive analogy which they share with the Jews with regard to the Messiah. The Samaritans fully expect the Messiah will reveal to them the truth of God when He comes. That is when Jesus gives her the Gospel of the Kingdom - He is the Messiah. The one they can put their trust in; at this point she tells the entire town she has found the Messiah.

John 4:19-26

• The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
• Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
• The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
• Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

The concept of the Abrahamic blessing is Jesus in the flesh whose spiritual progeny is by faith in the Son of God. Paul reiterates:

• Rom 1:2-3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

• Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the of Abraham, who is the father of us all
• Rom 9:7-8 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
• Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

We, therefore are the blessed from all nations, through faith in Christ the seed of Abraham and shown to be by the indwelling Spirit of God so that we might worship in both Spirit and Truth. Because we have His indwelling Spirit we are to walk as He walked and finish the Mission to all ethne' not just the Jews and the seven Gentile nations in the bounds of Israel. We are on commission with Jesus to complete the Great Commission and in His abiding presence we certainly will for the gates of hell shall not prevail against us.

• Gen 15:4-6 And behold, the Word of the LORD came to Abraham, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
• 1Co 2:16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
• Phl 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,
• 1Jo 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as Jesus walked.
• Jhn 6:57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
• Jhn 13:20 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
• Jhn 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
• Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen
• Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
• Mat 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations (i.e. ethne'), and then the end will come.
• Mat 24:27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

God's love for humanity is shown that His heart's desire is towards all ethnic peoples. He will not return until the saving message of Christ crucified and raised is in every tongue upon the earth that they too may know the eternal hope we have in Him. It's been nearly 2000 years since He walked the earth it is high time the Church on mission with Jesus completed His mandate to us and stop getting distracted by everything else. It is people who matter, people in lands the Gospel has not penetrated, people ravaged by the wounds of war, people God sends to us. He died for them all and held nothing back on that cross. He bled out love as much as He did blood for humanity held under sin's dread sway. The people who will come to Christ, no matter what form of religiousity they currently practice or the lack thereof, are the seed and this is the treasure of heaven because they belong to the Beloved in Christ - maybe not yet but by the message of hope we bring that will transform them into sons and daughters of the living God.

• Ephesians 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
• Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

In Christ, John 17:20

 

[Ken Rank]

Hello Ken,

That's a major context switch with respect to the almost 2000 years of Christians following the mandate of the Great Commission. We have been on the mandate to bring the message of the Gospel to every nation since Pentecost. So the implications would be staggeringly exclusive and I believe the Bible, in its total context, is quite inclusive of all ethne' - ethnic people. The evidence for inclusivity (active inclusion) is found everywhere in the Bible starting in Genesis.

INCLUSIVITY:

Jesus taught us to go to every tongue, tribe and ethnic origin - all the people groups of the earth not just the lost tribes of Israel. Abraham would be the grandfather of Jacob in the flesh, whom God renamed Yisra'el, Israel; God Prevails.

• Gen 32:28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

BLESSED TO BE A BLESSING - who will Abraham's seed bless?

God promised to make Abraham's seed into a great nation and would bless him so that he would be a blessing.

• Gen 12:2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing.

He would be a blessing because "all" of the families of the earth would be blessed in him.

• Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Blessed to be a blessing to all the families of the earth

The implication being that ALL the families of the earth would be blessed through his seed. I would identify his seed as Christ in the flesh, both descended from the line of David and the Spirit was the Son of God. He proclai God later gives Abraham a picture of what that looks like as He covenants with him. His fleshly progeny would include more nations than Israel in fact "many" nations and we see that today.

• Gen 17:4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.

• Gen 17:6 “I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.

Abraham not only the fleshly Grandfather of Israel but the spiritual Father of the faithful

But God also makes clear that He is not only speaking of the seed of Abraham according to the flesh but also according to the seed of his faith. Paul later clarifies this point as we shall see. The seed of his faith includes "all the nations of the earth" and not only Abraham's fleshly progeny. We shouldn't overlook God's final promise to Abraham coming in close proximity to God asking him to make the ultimate sacrifice, which runs parallel to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

• 1Ti 2:5c-6 Jesus Christ who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Abraham by obedience proved to God that he would not withhold his true son of promise from God. Neither would God withhold His only beloved Son for our salvation. We therefore are also the blessed of God according to His covenant with Abraham, in essence sons and daughter of Abraham according to the promise.

All the nations shall be blessed by his obedience - the children of faith

• Gen 22:17-18 "blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
• Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
• Rom 4:12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

God repeated this blessing to his son Isaac when he went to Beersheba,

• Gen 26:24 And the LORD appeared to him the same night and said, "I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham's sake."

and again to Abraham's grandson Jacob.

• Gen 28:13-14 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: “I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

The Lord met Jacob and changed his name to Israel - regarded as a theophany of Christ

• Gen 32:28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."

So we have established that the Abrahamic blessing was for his progeny (Israel) who was to then become a blessing to the nations (ethne' a.k.a. people groups). But we haven't unpacked the how yet.


The fleshly seed and Spiritual Seed Promised is revealed. Christ reveals the who and when as Him and now. However, the what and how is yet to be revealed in the cross and resurrection.

Jesus reiterates the blessing of salvation is of the Jews (Israel) to the Samaritan woman at the well. The Samaritans, even today, are descended from the northern tribes, especially the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh but were considered by the southern Judeans to have apotheosized. In the passage below Jesus seems to agree with the Judeans that the Samaritans do not understand the covenant and salvation is of the Jews. However, he also infers that a new hour is coming when true worshipers will worship God in both Spirit and Truth. Jesus is speaking about the spiritual seed that will ultimately comes from His death and resurrection. The lady, grounded in Samaritan dogma clearly is not on the same page with the Judean's with respect to their worship. Many pagan elements had crept into the Northern tribes, including this sect, whereas the south was more grounded in the Truth of the Law and Prophets. However their is a redemptive analogy which they share with the Jews with regard to the Messiah. The Samaritans fully expect the Messiah will reveal to them the truth of God when He comes. That is when Jesus gives her the Gospel of the Kingdom - He is the Messiah. The one they can put their trust in; at this point she tells the entire town she has found the Messiah.

John 4:19-26

• The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
• Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
• The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
• Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

The concept of the Abrahamic blessing is Jesus in the flesh whose spiritual progeny is by faith in the Son of God. Paul reiterates:

• Rom 1:2-3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

• Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the of Abraham, who is the father of us all
• Rom 9:7-8 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
• Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

We, therefore are the blessed from all nations, through faith in Christ the seed of Abraham and shown to be by the indwelling Spirit of God so that we might worship in both Spirit and Truth. Because we have His indwelling Spirit we are to walk as He walked and finish the Mission to all ethne' not just the Jews and the seven Gentile nations in the bounds of Israel. We are on commission with Jesus to complete the Great Commission and in His abiding presence we certainly will for the gates of hell shall not prevail against us.

• Gen 15:4-6 And behold, the Word of the LORD came to Abraham, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
• 1Co 2:16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
• Phl 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,
• 1Jo 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as Jesus walked.
• Jhn 6:57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
• Jhn 13:20 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
• Jhn 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
• Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen
• Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
• Mat 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations (i.e. ethne'), and then the end will come.
• Mat 24:27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

God's love for humanity is shown that His heart's desire is towards all ethnic peoples. He will not return until the saving message of Christ crucified and raised is in every tongue upon the earth that they too may know the eternal hope we have in Him. It's been nearly 2000 years since He walked the earth it is high time the Church on mission with Jesus completed His mandate to us and stop getting distracted by everything else. It is people who matter, people in lands the Gospel has not penetrated, people ravaged by the wounds of war, people God sends to us. He died for them all and held nothing back on that cross. He bled out love as much as He did blood for humanity held under sin's dread sway. The people who will come to Christ, no matter what form of religiousity they currently practice or the lack thereof, are the seed and this is the treasure of heaven because they belong to the Beloved in Christ - maybe not yet but by the message of hope we bring that will transform them into sons and daughters of the living God.

• Ephesians 3:14-21 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
• Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

In Christ, John 17:20

I wish you hadn't spent so much time replying, we probably don't really disagree. When Yeshua said, "I have not been sent BUT to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel" (and he sent his disciples to the same) the simple question needs to be asked, "Where are they?" And the answer is... "in the nations." So your opening couple of sentences about the Great Commission, the nations, and Shavuot (Pentecost) are exactly what I am talking about, too.

 

[sparow]

I peeked at the PDF of Barrie. My perception is he does not understand Paul, to keep it simple.

And Jesus Himself was always surprising the disciples. But there were things He did tell them, in advance. And a problem has been, all along, how people have been able to misunderstood Him and Paul and Peter and James and others.

I find that Paul's writings and actions are a match with all Jesus taught and did, and with what other New Testament writers have given us. But how we understand him can contradict what they mean. Because we humans are not perfect, plus we have our motives and where we are trying to take people. There are people who are trying to bring people to their understanding imperfect and to their groups.

And I have been a loner and loser, socially; so I have tried to bring people's attention to me. Except I have used more generally accepted Bible-related ideas to get on people's good side. So I still need more of God's correction so I find out how to love, and not only how to argue myself right.

"But you have said you know you can fool your own self and not even know it; so how can you be sure you have got things straight?"

That's right; I can fool myself; plus, I would say any of us humans can be mistaken, however, and not know it. So, I offer myself to God, for Him to do what He wants with me. And I keep finding more and more connections of Jesus and Paul and Peter and James and Jude and John. And often I get much better than I have been able to see and understand. And what I get means how much more correction I myself need in order to get more real with God and more genuine in His love; I do not get only intellectual stuff so I can prove myself right against others!

What I am noticing is not only how to resolve factual and literary conflicts which people have with each other, but I keep discovering how Jesus and our New Testament writers are saying grace works and how God means for us to become in our character and find out how to love. "The spiritual meaning matches."

And so, Sparow, Barrie might not be relating with this spiritual meaning, of how God means for us to become and love. He appears to make claims, but at a glance I did not see him say anything about how Jesus and Paul mean for us to become spiritually in our nature and how we please God and relate with one another Christians and love any and all people.

What divisive people can do is to call attention to historical claims of facts, plus literary problems, but not to how we need to become in God's own love. So, their issues and arguing . . . maybe on both sides of an argument . . . can be a design play by Satan to keep people weak in useless arguing self-favoritistic, instead of first concentrating on how to seek God for Himself, how to please Him, and how to relate in love. They isolate themselves, instead, with isolated combinations of scriptures and claims of historical facts and literal interpretation problems . . . often when ones, anyway, don't even believe the Bible should be interpreted literally!

And I find the Bible is designed, among other things, to bring out people's motives (Hebrews 4:12). Ones not first into seeking God and seeking His correction to find out how to love are going to use the Bible to call attention elsewhere.

But, like I offer, I keep finding matches > one example > what different writers say about how to please God >

Peter says, "rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

Paul says to, "aspire to lead a quiet life", in 1 Thessalonians 4:11. And Paul says to pray for people, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence." (in 1 Timothy 2:1-4) So, Paul is helping us to know how to be quiet . . . in godliness and reverence, while caring in prayer with hope for any and all people (which matches, by the way, with how Jesus wants us to love any and all people) . . . not only giving people the silent treatment and being quiet in that way.

And with this, James gives us description of how God's wisdom "from above" is > including "peaceable" and "willing to yield" which would fit with how to be quiet in God's gentle and quiet love.

Plus, Paul says plenty about not giving in to lusts and not letting things and people have power over us (including 1 Corinthians 6:12) . . . so we can be deeply and nicely and pleasantly quiet, instead. And Jesus, of course, has said things against giving in to lusts. To the Thessalonians he says "not to soon be shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter", in 2 Thessalonians 2:2. And Jesus says "Do not let your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." (in John 14:27)

This is all related to how we need to become quiet in God's love, including so we have the almighty power of God to protect us from how fear would violate us > and this matches, then, with what John also has said in his first epistle >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

This means in God's love with His almighty power to drive out fear. So, Paul and Jesus and John and James are talking about what is possible only with God. And so Satan will have people calling attention to issues which keep our attention away from this. So, @Big Drew, you can test people and groups by how much they call attention to all which is possible with God and how the grace of His love works in us, versus how much they are trying to prove themselves right in comparison with other people.

2 Corinthians 12:10

I find I can learn from most people, and yet I don't mean that; I learn while listening to others but usually not the lesson they teach. When I read "Taking Paul at his word", I found a lot factual in that I had heard it from other sources, in particular the friction between Paul and James; there is history of that time. But I also expected a scholar could do as good a Job in support of Paul yet I have never seen it done; I only see people expressing their confidence and faith in Paul, their eyes shining when the speak of Paul; many worship Paul more so than Christ.

Many say it was Paul who gave us the new covenant and not Christ; and that pretty much sizes many up; Jesus taught that the way to life is narrow and few it is who find it; most will tell you that you do not have to do anything.

""But you have said you know you can fool your own self and not even know it; so how can you be sure you have got things straight"", I do not remember saying that; saying "fooling ones self" would be to allegorise surely. More important than correction is allegiance because it includes everything else. Most get God's grace wrong; God's grace equates to patience not the lowering or changing of standards.

I would say you never understood Barrie, Barrie said Paul's new religion was spiritualistic in the sense that it was of the type of Roman Mysticism where Paul treated Christ in the manner he would treat a Roman god.

""don't even believe the Bible should be interpreted literally!""; this seems to be religious jargon and I have not been taught religious jargon; I would say anyone who reads does so interpreting literally even when reading the phone book.

About 35 years ago, as a novice, I began reading the NT; first I read Revelation because I was looking for something that I expected to find in the back of the book, when I didn't find it I began reading the Gospels, then Acts, then Romans and a part of Corinthians; I found Paul was teaching contrary to what Jesus taught, and I have never used Paul since except in these kind of debates.

 

[John 1720]

I wish you hadn't spent so much time replying, we probably don't really disagree. When Yeshua said, "I have not been sent BUT to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel" (and he sent his disciples to the same) the simple question needs to be asked, "Where are they?" And the answer is... "in the nations." So your opening couple of sentences about the Great Commission, the nations, and Shavuot (Pentecost) are exactly what I am talking about, too.

Hi Ken,
No harm - no foul but Jesus only sent them to the lost sheep of the house of Israel at the beginning of His ministry. Later, however, He himself ministered to the Gentile nations living within Israel as well. It starts out with the Syro-Phonecian woman of Mark Chapter 7 in the region of Tyre and Sidon

From there He (Jesus) arose and went to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And He entered a house and wanted no one to know it, but He could not be hidden. For a woman whose young daughter had an unclean spirit heard about Him, and she came and fell at His feet. The woman was a Greek, a Syro-Phoenician by birth, and she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
And she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs under the table eat from the children’s crumbs.”
Then He said to her, “For this saying go your way; the demon has gone out of your daughter.”
And when she had come to her house, she found the demon gone out, and her daughter lying on the bed.

Jesus loved the response of this Gentile woman. Immediately after this He came through the Decapolis of the Gentiles where He healed a deaf mute man.

Again, departing from the region of Tyre and Sidon, He came through the midst of the region of Decapolis to the Sea of Galilee. Then they brought to Him one who was deaf and had an impediment in his speech, and they begged Him to put His hand on him. And He took him aside from the multitude, and put His fingers in his ears, and He spat and touched his tongue. Then, looking up to heaven, He sighed, and said to him, “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”
Immediately his ears were opened, and the impediment of his tongue was loosed, and he spoke plainly. Then He commanded them that they should tell no one; but the more He commanded them, the more widely they proclaimed it. And they were astonished beyond measure, saying, “He has done all things well. He makes both the deaf to hear and the mute to speak.”

Next we find Jesus feeding the multitudes for the 2nd time. The first was 5000 men not counting women and children where He collected 12 remaining baskets after the multiplication. The 2nd was 4000 men, not counting women and children, wehere he collected 7 baskets. Might seem like a small point but it was not. The 1st setting, with 12 baskets leftover, was near Tabgha of Galilee which was surrounded by heavily Jewish settlements. The 2nd setting, where there 7 baskets were recollected, was near the Sea of Galilee just outside the Decapolis, which was a heavily Gentile area, He had just passed through

The aftermath here is quite revealing.

And He left them, and getting into the boat again, departed to the other side. Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, and they did not have more than one loaf with them in the boat. 15 Then He charged them, saying, “Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.”
And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have no bread.”
But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened? Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear? And do you not remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments did you take up?”
They said to Him, “Twelve.”
“Also, when I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of fragments did you take up?”
And they said, “Seven.”
So He said to them, “How is it you do not understand?”

What significance of the twelve and seven did they not understand?

In Christ, John 1720

• Biblical conspiracies?

 

[Ken Rank]

Hi Ken,
No harm - no foul but Jesus only sent them to the lost sheep of the house of Israel at the beginning of His ministry. Later, however, He himself ministered to the Gentile nations living within Israel as well. It starts out with the Syro-Phonecian woman of Mark Chapter 7 in the region of Tyre and Sidon

Actually, he said he had only been sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, he sent his disciples out to the lost sheep of the House of Israel... and if you care to see it, I can show you how Paul's commission is Jacob's blessing repeated over him. Paul was sent for Israel as well... Israel in the nations who had become pagan (gentiles).

Blessings.

 

[John 1720]

Actually, he said he had only been sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, he sent his disciples out to the lost sheep of the House of Israel... and if you care to see it, I can show you how Paul's commission is Jacob's blessing repeated over him. Paul was sent for Israel as well... Israel in the nations who had become pagan (gentiles).

Blessings.

Blessing upon you also Sir,
Abraham's, Isaac's, and Jacob's blessing are all the same - they are blessed to be a blessing, and not just to Israel but all ethne'.

• Isa 49:6 Indeed He says,
• ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant o raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
• I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

Yes, Salvation is of the Jews as Jesus tells the Samaritan woman in John 4. Israel, the grandson of Abraham, has been blessed to be a blessing. A blessing to whom? All the nations of the earth shall be blessed through him; actually his seed which is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, Jesus instructs first instructs His Galilean disciples to not go in the way of the Gentiles nor the Samaritans (who were the lost sheep of Israel)

• Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.

Of course quite a bit of the Lord's ministry had already taken place when He made this statement, since Matthew was indeed one of the twelve but perhaps the last disciple to come to Christ of the twelve. For one there is Jesus proclamation of the Messianic prophecy in Nazareth. Luke 4:18. However, they became enraged when He reminded them about God's healing's of Gentiles Luke 4:20-30 - no doubt the leven was a stronghold.

Even previous to this Jesus already Himself had gone to the Samaritans to deliver the Gospel of the Kingdom and He chose as His "person of peace" none other than a Samaritan woman which flabbergasted his disciples from the Jordan. This occurred before He even started His Galilean ministry. So what's up with that? Did not Jesus purposely go in the way of the Samaritans? On the way out of Samaria He gives the speech that the fields are already white unto harvest - also significant.

Before Matthew encountered the Lord we see that Christ healed a Roman centurion's servant Luke 7:1-10 and Matthew 8:5-13. Being a Roman he is clearly a gentile and seemingly aware of the Jewish restriction that Pharisaical law forbids Jesus to enter the house of a Gentile. We see later see elements of the same prohibition in Acts 11:2-18 .
Then there was a man possessed with a legion of demons Matt. 8:28-34; Mark 5:1-20; Luke 8:26-39. He too was clearly Gentile and Jesus sent him back home into the Decapolis to proclaim what God had done for him. People were amazed and the fame of Christ spread among them.

Later Jesus enter the region of Tyre and Sidon where He has an encounter with the Syro-Phoenician woman of Mark 7:24-30 She is clearly not one from the lost tribes, which I highlighted in the last post and this region also was in the way of the Gentiles.

Then we have Jesus entering the Decapolis also filled with Gentiles and throngs of them follow him out on his journey toward the Sea even though there was no food there. He has compasion upon them and feeds 4000 men and unnumbered women and children. He receives back 7 baskets of leftovers vs the 12 baskets they received back among the tribes of Israel on the opposite side of the Lake.

Jesus then heads back to the opposite side of Lake Galilee - Jewish territory

• Mar 8:10-11 He immediately got into the boat with His disciples, and came to the region of Dalmanutha. Then the Pharisees came out and began to dispute with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, testing Him.

Why did they begin to dispute with the Lord? Was it possibly for going to the Gentiles? That would have been apostasy as far as many of the Pharisees and Saducees were concerned. Suddenly these Jews needed to have a sign that would reassure them that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus states that no sign shall be given and gets back in the boat.

He upbraids his disciples for not understanding both miracles of the multipication of the loaves and fishes and warns them that the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees who misinterpret God's will to the people. Why? What is the context? What did He just do? Obviously the leftover twelve baskets symbolizes something, as well as the representative seven baskets and He expected His disciples to understand the symbolism. They're a bit slow in understanding the difference between the literal and symbolic meanings.

Let us not forget Matthew's opening salvo of prophecy to the Gospel of Christ Jesus
Mat 4:15-17

• "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles:
• The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned."
• From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Nor should we dismiss Jesus' final instructions to His disciples that obviously supercedes His first instructions not to attempt any cross cultural ministry with either Samaritans or Gentiles. They would take their lead from Christ Himself, although slow to understand it because of the prevailing cultural stronghold, which prevented them from seeing the Abrahamic blessing in its full light.

• Mat 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
• Mar 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

 

[Ken Rank]

Blessing upon you also Sir,
Abraham's, Isaac's, and Jacob's blessing are all the same - they are blessed to be a blessing, and not just to Israel but all ethne'.

• Isa 49:6 Indeed He says,
• ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant o raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
• I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

Yes, Salvation is of the Jews as Jesus tells the Samaritan woman in John 4. Israel, the grandson of Abraham, has been blessed to be a blessing. A blessing to whom? All the nations of the earth shall be blessed through him; actually his seed which is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, Jesus instructs first instructs His Galilean disciples to not go in the way of the Gentiles nor the Samaritans (who were the lost sheep of Israel)

• Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.

Of course quite a bit of the Lord's ministry had already taken place when He made this statement, since Matthew was indeed one of the twelve but perhaps the last disciple to come to Christ of the twelve. For one there is Jesus proclamation of the Messianic prophecy in Nazareth. Luke 4:18. However, they became enraged when He reminded them about God's healing's of Gentiles Luke 4:20-30 - no doubt the leven was a stronghold.

Even previous to this Jesus already Himself had gone to the Samaritans to deliver the Gospel of the Kingdom and He chose as His "person of peace" none other than a Samaritan woman which flabbergasted his disciples from the Jordan. This occurred before He even started His Galilean ministry. So what's up with that? Did not Jesus purposely go in the way of the Samaritans? On the way out of Samaria He gives the speech that the fields are already white unto harvest - also significant.

Before Matthew encountered the Lord we see that Christ healed a Roman centurion's servant Luke 7:1-10 and Matthew 8:5-13. Being a Roman he is clearly a gentile and seemingly aware of the Jewish restriction that Pharisaical law forbids Jesus to enter the house of a Gentile. We see later see elements of the same prohibition in Acts 11:2-18 .
Then there was a man possessed with a legion of demons Matt. 8:28-34; Mark 5:1-20; Luke 8:26-39. He too was clearly Gentile and Jesus sent him back home into the Decapolis to proclaim what God had done for him. People were amazed and the fame of Christ spread among them.

Later Jesus enter the region of Tyre and Sidon where He has an encounter with the Syro-Phoenician woman of Mark 7:24-30 She is clearly not one from the lost tribes, which I highlighted in the last post and this region also was in the way of the Gentiles.

Then we have Jesus entering the Decapolis also filled with Gentiles and throngs of them follow him out on his journey toward the Sea even though there was no food there. He has compasion upon them and feeds 4000 men and unnumbered women and children. He receives back 7 baskets of leftovers vs the 12 baskets they received back among the tribes of Israel on the opposite side of the Lake.

Jesus then heads back to the opposite side of Lake Galilee - Jewish territory

• Mar 8:10-11 He immediately got into the boat with His disciples, and came to the region of Dalmanutha. Then the Pharisees came out and began to dispute with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, testing Him.

Why did they begin to dispute with the Lord? Was it possibly for going to the Gentiles? That would have been apostasy as far as many of the Pharisees and Saducees were concerned. Suddenly these Jews needed to have a sign that would reassure them that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus states that no sign shall be given and gets back in the boat.

He upbraids his disciples for not understanding both miracles of the multipication of the loaves and fishes and warns them that the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees who misinterpret God's will to the people. Why? What is the context? What did He just do? Obviously the leftover twelve baskets symbolizes something, as well as the representative seven baskets and He expected His disciples to understand the symbolism. They're a bit slow in understanding the difference between the literal and symbolic meanings.

Let us not forget Matthew's opening salvo of prophecy to the Gospel of Christ Jesus
Mat 4:15-17

• "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles:
• The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned."
• From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Nor should we dismiss Jesus' final instructions to His disciples that obviously supercedes His first instructions not to attempt any cross cultural ministry with either Samaritans or Gentiles. They would take their lead from Christ Himself, although slow to understand it because of the prevailing cultural stronghold, which prevented them from seeing the Abrahamic blessing in its full light.

• Mat 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
• Mar 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

They are the same.... Psalms 105:8-10 shows how this promise to Abraham passes through each generation (not spiritually, but through each physical generation) culminating with Israel at Sinai where... what was once a promise, oath and law... becomes an "everlasting covenant" with Israel.

Just so you know where I am coming from... I don't expect you to accept this, but this is what I believe... the word for "new" in Jeremiah 31:31 is chadashah. That is from the root chadesh which means 'to renew' being used as an adjective. So it is literally "renewed covenant" not "new covenant." If this is true, we should find the same in the Greek when this is repeated in Hebrews 8:8. And we do... the word for new is kainos which means "new in regards to freshness." The word nehos is new in regards to AGE. In other words, something brand new is nehos, something renewed is kainos... and kainos is the word we find in the Hebrews passage I just mentioned.

My point is... I see something that began with Abraham and that has progressed through to Yeshua and on to us. All part of the same "everlasting covenant" that has the SAME TEXT... the difference being... that which was on stone is being moved to the mind and heart by God as the mark of the renewing of the everlasting covenant.

Like I said brother... you won't accept this... but this is where I am and intend to stay.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[John 1720]

Actually, he said he had only been sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, he sent his disciples out to the lost sheep of the House of Israel... and if you care to see it, I can show you how Paul's commission is Jacob's blessing repeated over him. Paul was sent for Israel as well... Israel in the nations who had become pagan (gentiles).

Blessings.

Blessings again Sir,
I neglected to add this to my last post. Of course I would care to hear what you have to say. I would agree Paul went both to the Synagogues and to places where Gentiles gathered. Make no mistake I believe Salvation is of the Jews. Jesus was Jewish as well as being the Son of God. His chosen Apostles and early disciples were all Jewish as well and this was by design and order of precedent, as seen in the Abrahamic blessing. It was always the plan that the message of Christ and His Gospel would emanate in Israel then from Israel and that message would permeate all the Gentile nations before circling back around to Israel's acceptance, as Paul infers in Romans 11:11-15
The apostles believed the same about the messaging and the calling of the Gentiles:

• Act 15:11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they." (they being the Gentiles)

I believe this is the call of Paul relative to the time domain of his ministry

Ministry to both Gentile and Jew

• Act 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.

Affirmation of Apostolic ministry - It was agreed Paul would bring Christ to the uncircumcised Gentiles at the council of Jerusalem but yes he still went to his brethren also.

• Gal 2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
• Act 15:16-18 'After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
  I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the LORD who does all these things.' for "Known to God from eternity are all His works.

The end of Paul's Jewish Evangelism at the macro level took place soon afterwards in Corinth. He still believed the message was for Jew and Gentile but recognized the growing stronghold amongst his brethren and the fields white unto harvest that God had given him among the Gentiles who were coming to Christ.

• Act 18:6 But when they (the Jews) opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Later he reflects on this and obviously has received both consolation and inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

• Romans 10:1-21 and Romans 11:1-36

May the Lord Bless, John 1720

 

[Ken Rank]

Blessings again Sir,
I neglected to add this to my last post. Of course I would care to hear what you have to say. I would agree Paul went both to the Synagogues and to places where Gentiles gathered. Make no mistake I believe Salvation is of the Jews. Jesus was Jewish as well as being the Son of God. His chosen Apostles and early disciples were all Jewish as well and this was by design and order of precedent, as seen in the Abrahamic blessing. It was always the plan that the message of Christ and His Gospel would emanate in Israel then from Israel and that message would permeate all the Gentile nations before circling back around to Israel's acceptance, as Paul infers in Romans 11:11-15
The apostles believed the same about the messaging and the calling of the Gentiles:

• Act 15:11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they." (they being the Gentiles)

I believe this is the call of Paul relative to the time domain of his ministry

Ministry to both Gentile and Jew

• Act 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.

Affirmation of Apostolic ministry - It was agreed Paul would bring Christ to the uncircumcised Gentiles at the council of Jerusalem but yes he still went to his brethren also.

• Gal 2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
• Act 15:16-18 'After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
  I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the LORD who does all these things.' for "Known to God from eternity are all His works.

The end of Paul's Jewish Evangelism at the macro level took place soon afterwards in Corinth. He still believed the message was for Jew and Gentile but recognized the growing stronghold amongst his brethren and the fields white unto harvest that God had given him among the Gentiles who were coming to Christ.

• Act 18:6 But when they (the Jews) opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Later he reflects on this and obviously has received both consolation and inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

• Romans 10:1-21 and Romans 11:1-36

May the Lord Bless, John 1720

You're a kind brother and I appreciate that. Instead of going back and forth, let me share something. In 1611 (before if you want to include Tyndale and other early English translations) the word "gentile" was chosen for the Greek ethnos. However, the word gentile meant something entirely different back then and yet even though we have a completely different definition today, we still use that same word. My point is... when a modern English speaking mainstream Christian hears the word gentile, they define it one way, but a brother from the year 1750 who heard the word gentile would define it entirely differently. Do you understand? So, back in the early days of English bibles, a "Gentile" was defined as, "a heathen, a pagan, anyone not a Jew or Christian." (Source: 1828 Webster's) However, today the word is defined as, "any believer in Jesus who isn't Jewish." You are reading the NT and think one thing when you see the word gentile, and when I see that word I have an entirely different concept in my head.

Israel was one nation and after Solomon they divided into two Kingdoms. Israel to the north (also known in Scripture as Joseph, Ephraim, and sometimes Samaria) and Judah to the south. Two Kingdoms, two Houses (Jer 31/ Heb 8) and two sticks (Ezek. 37). Israel went into Assyria after repeated warnings about their idolatry and instead of crying out and repenting... they assimilated into the Assyrian culture and became indistinguishable from their captors. Some came back and assimilated into Judah, even the Samarians who were part of the Northern Kingdom hid when the rest were taken and most joined with Judah or eventually the church... but most of Israel never came out of Assyria. After a time God scattered them into ALL nations (ethnos) and they were part of whatever culture they landed in... they were gentiles. At this point they become historically known as, "the lost sheep of the House of Israel." There was a promise to call them to repent (return) and that was where the weight of Yeshua's mission was on. His message was for ALL, but the weight was on reaching out into the nations (ethnos/gentiles) where Israel had been scattered.

My point in sharing this is that while the gospel is for ALL, the weight of the NT is on calling those back from the nations. This is even why we see James begin his letter as he does. So when we see gentile in the NT, sometimes it is speaking about any one who is not of Israel, and we may or may not be. But it can also be a reference to Israel in the nations and remember, ethnos can be translated as nations as well.

Paul's commission... you brought it up after I did but simply quoted it as if it supports him as the "apostle to the gentiles." Well, he is but not the way you think. May I share something about Paul's commission with you?

 

[Ken Rank]

@John 1720 I have a few minutes now but probably won't in the days ahead. So if you don't mind I would like to share this with you and others.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Above is Paul's commission. Why did I make 3 words bold and red? Good question!

The word for gentiles is ethnos. In the LXX (Greek OT) in almost 90% of the places where ethnos appears, the Hebrew manuscript is translated into English as nations. However, for some reason that % is almost reversed with ethnos being translated as gentiles around 75% of the time. So, would it be wrong to translate ethnos as nations here? Not at all... Young's Literal did it, as did The Literal Version, The Scriptures, The Modern KJV and many more.

That leaves the word "and" appearing two times... what is the significance? Well, when you go to the Greek you'll find they are two different words. The first is kai which is the Greek word for "and" but the second is "te" which appears 49 times in the NT... but only once as "and." The te means "both" or it can mean "also." So, allow me to retranslate....

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before the nations and kings both the children of Israel.

Paul was to go to the nations and kings who were both the children of Israel. For those with an Eidetic Memory, this might look at least familiar:

Genesis 35:11 Also God said to him: "I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall proceed from you, and kings shall come from your body.

The seed of Jacob, Israel, would become nations and kings. Paul was sent to nations and kings... thus like Yeshua and the other disciples, he was sent to to call Israel home.

 

[John 1720]

They are the same.... Psalms 105:8-10 shows how this promise to Abraham passes through each generation (not spiritually, but through each physical generation) culminating with Israel at Sinai where... what was once a promise, oath and law... becomes an "everlasting covenant" with Israel.

I have no disagreement that the promise was an everlasting one. I do not adhere to a doctrine of supersessionism. The New Testament writers never equated the church as the natural of Israel. However I do believe the Old Covenant was fulfilled in Yeshua Messiah whom the prophets and Moses pointed to. So as is John 4 salvation is sourced from Israel, the fulfillment of the blessing is Christ that would bless the nations. Romans 11:16-18 confirms this

• For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

So where we probably disagree is with respect to the integral spiritual promise by which the blessings given to Abraham would become a blessing to the entire world, Jew and Gentile alike. For the most part the Jews contemporary with Elohim ben Yachid understood their Messiah only from an I will bless you point of view. He would come from them and would be for them. Their worldview was small and they did not understand that they would be "blessed to be a blessing". It was not enough for God to bless Israel alone but all the ethne' would be blessed through Him. They got part A of the promise but not part B and so they missed God's heart for the nations. The physical always comes first but is followed by the spiritual.

• 1 Corinthians 15:46

Jesus said it was better that He go so the Spirit could do His Work of transformation - these are the new wine-skins that Jesus spoke of. Not trying to self-righteously follow the Law but creating a new man while crucifying the old.
The Work of the Holy Spirit John 16:5-11

• “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

The New Wine

• Mat 9:17 “Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”
  Mar 2:21 “No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”
  Luk 5:36-39 Then He spoke a parable to them: “No one puts a piece from a new garment on an old one; otherwise the new makes a tear, and also the piece that was taken out of the new does not match the old.
  And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the wineskins and be spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins, and both are preserved. And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, ‘The old is better.’ ”
• Mat 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
  Mar 14:25 “Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

Just so you know where I am coming from... I don't expect you to accept this, but this is what I believe... the word for "new" in Jeremiah 31:31 is chadashah. That is from the root chadesh which means 'to renew' being used as an adjective. So it is literally "renewed covenant" not "new covenant." If this is true, we should find the same in the Greek when this is repeated in Hebrews 8:8. And we do... the word for new is kainos which means "new in regards to freshness." The word nehos is new in regards to AGE. In other words, something brand new is nehos, something renewed is kainos... and kainos is the word we find in the Hebrews passage I just mentioned.

The word usage overwhelmingly indicates "new" not "renew" in an exhaustive search of the passages in the Bible. (see below) Jesus came to introduce something new, "You must be born from above", not to patch up something old. Jesus doesn't destroy the law but He fulfills it. On fulfilling He didn't leave us orphans but abides in us by the Holy Spirit He also fulfills part B of the Abrahamic blessing which brings the completion of the blessing (the transforming power of the Gospel) to all peoples by commissioning us. We are therefore on mission with Christ until He comes again.

Exo 1:8 Now there arose up H6965 a new (Strong’s H2319) king H4428 over Egypt, H4714which knew H3045 not Joseph. H3130

Lev 23:16 Even unto H5704 the morrow H4283 after the seventh H7637sabbath H7676 shall ye number H5608 fifty H2572 days; H3117 and ye shall offer H7126 a new (Strong’s H2319) meat offering H4503 unto the LORD. H3068

Lev 26:10 And ye shall eat H398 old store, H3462 and bring forth H3318 the old H3465 because H6440 of the new. (Strong’s H2319)

Num 28:26 Also in the day H3117 of the firstfruits, H1061 when ye bring H7126 a new (Strong’s H2319) meat offering H4503 unto the LORD, H3068 after your weeks H7620 be out, ye shall have an holy H6944 convocation; H4744ye shall do H6213 no servile H5656 work: H4399

Deu 20:5 And the officers H7860 shall speak H1696 unto the people, H5971saying, H559 What man H376 is there that hath built H1129 a new (Strong’s H2319) house, H1004 and hath not dedicated H2596 it? let him go H3212 and return H7725 to his house, H1004 lest he die H4191 in the battle, H4421 and another H312 man H376 dedicate H2596 it.

Deu 22:8 When thou buildest H1129 a new (Strong’s H2319) house, H1004 then thou shalt make H6213 a battlement H4624 for thy roof, H1406 that thou bring H7760 not blood H1818 upon thine house, H1004 if any man H5307 fall H5307 from thence.

Deu 24:5 When a man H376 hath taken H3947 a new (Strong’s H2319) wife, H802 he shall not go out H3318 to war, H6635 neither shall he be charged H5674 with any business: H1697 but he shall be free H5355at home H1004 one H259 year, H8141 and shall cheer up H8055 his wife H802 which he hath taken. H3947

Deu 32:17 They sacrificed H2076 unto devils, H7700 not to God; H433 to gods H430 whom they knew H3045 not, to new (Strong’s H2319) gods that came H935 H0 newly H7138 up, H935 whom your fathers H1feared H8175 not.

Jos 9:13 And these bottles H4997 of wine, H3196 which we filled, H4390were new; (Strong’s H2319) and, behold, they be rent: H1234 and these our garments H8008 and our shoes H5275 are become old H1086 by reason of the very H3966 long H7230 journey. H1870

Jdg 5:8 They chose H977 new (Strong’s H2319) gods; H430 then was war H3901 in the gates: H8179 was there a shield H4043 or spear H7420 seen H7200among forty H705 thousand H505 in Israel? H3478

Jdg 15:13 And they spake H559 unto him, saying, H559 No; but we will bind H631 thee fast, H631 and deliver H5414 thee into their hand: H3027 but surely H4191 we will not kill H4191 thee. And they bound H631 him with two H8147 new (Strong’s H2319) cords, H5688 and brought him up H5927 from the rock. H5553

Jdg 16:11 And he said H559 unto her, If they bind H631 me fast H631 with new (Strong’s H2319) ropes H5688 that never were occupied, H4399 H6213 then shall I be weak, H2470 and be as another H259 man. H120

Jdg 16:12 Delilah H1807 therefore took H3947 new (Strong’s H2319) ropes, H5688 and bound H631 him therewith, and said H559 unto him, The Philistines H6430 be upon thee, Samson. H8123 And there were liers in wait H693 abiding H3427 in the chamber. H2315 And he brake H5423 them from off his arms H2220 like a thread. H2339

1Sa 6:7 Now therefore make H6213 a H259 new (Strong’s H2319) cart, H5699 and take H3947 two H8147 milch H5763 kine, H6510 on which there hath come H5927 no yoke, H5923 and tie H631 the kine H6510 to the cart, H5699 and bring H7725 their calves H1121 home H1004 from them: H310

2Sa 6:3 And they set H7392 the ark H727 of God H430 upon a new (Strong’s H2319)cart, H5699 and brought H5375 it out of the house H1004 of Abinadab H41 that was in Gibeah: H1390 and Uzzah H5798 and Ahio, H283 the sons H1121 of Abinadab, H41 drave H5090 the new (Strong’s H2319) cart. H5699

2Sa 21:16 And Ishbibenob, H3430 which was of the sons H3211 of the giant, H7497 the weight H4948 of whose spear H7013 weighed three H7969 hundred H3967 shekels of brass H5178 in weight, H4948he being girded H2296 with a new (Strong’s H2319) sword, thought H559 to have slain H5221 David. H1732

1Ki 11:29 And it came to pass at that time H6256 when Jeroboam H3379went out H3318 of Jerusalem, H3389 that the prophet H5030Ahijah H281 the Shilonite H7888 found H4672 him in the way; H1870and he had clad H3680 himself with a new (Strong’s H2319) garment; H8008and they two H8147 were alone in the field: H7704

1Ki 11:30 And Ahijah H281 caught H8610 the new (Strong’s H2319) garment H8008 that was on him, and rent H7167 it in twelve H8147 H6240 pieces: H7168

2Ki 2:20 And he said, H559 Bring H3947 me a new (Strong’s H2319) cruse, H6746 and put H7760 salt H4417 therein. And they brought H3947 it to him.

1Ch 13:7 And they carried H7392 the ark H727 of God H430 in a new (Strong’s H2319)cart H5699 out of the house H1004 of Abinadab: H41 and Uzza H5798and Ahio H283 drave H5090 the cart. H5699

2Ch 20:5 And Jehoshaphat H3092 stood H5975 in the congregation H6951 of Judah H3063 and Jerusalem, H3389 in the house H1004 of the LORD, H3068 before H6440 the new (Strong’s H2319) court, H2691

Job 32:19 Behold, my belly H990 is as wine H3196 which hath no vent; H6605it is ready to burst H1234 like new (Strong’s H2319) bottles. H178

Psa 33:3 Sing H7891 unto him a new (Strong’s H2319) song; H7892 play H5059skilfully H3190 with a loud noise. H8643

Psa 40:3 And he hath put H5414 a new (Strong’s H2319) song H7892 in my mouth, H6310even praise H8416 unto our God: H430 many H7227 shall see H7200 it, and fear, H3372 and shall trust H982 in the LORD. H3068

Psa 96:1 O sing H7891 unto the LORD H3068 a new (Strong’s H2319) song: H7892sing H7891 unto the LORD, H3068 all the earth. H776

Psa 98:1 [[A Psalm.]] H4210 O sing H7891 unto the LORD H3068 a new (Strong’s H2319)song; H7892 for he hath done H6213 marvellous things: H6381 his right hand, H3225 and his holy H6944 arm, H2220 hath gotten him the victory. H3467

Psa 144:9 I will sing H7891 a new (Strong’s H2319) song H7892 unto thee, O God: H430upon a psaltery H5035 and an instrument of ten strings H6218 will I sing praises H2167 unto thee.

Psa 149:1 Praise H1984 ye the LORD. H3050 Sing H7891 unto the LORD H3068 a new (Strong’s H2319) song, H7892 and his praise H8416 in the congregation H6951 of saints. H2623

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done H6213 is that which shall be done: H6213 and there is no new (Strong’s H2319) thing under the sun. H8121

Ecc 1:10 Is there H3426 any thing H1697 whereof it may be said, H559See, H7200 this is new? (Strong’s H2319) it hath been already H3528 of old time, H5769 which was before H6440 us.

Sng 7:13 The mandrakes H1736 give H5414 a smell, H7381 and at our gates H6607 are all manner of pleasant H4022 fruits, new (Strong’s H2319)and old, H3465 which I have laid up H6845 for thee, O my beloved. H1730

Isa 41:15 Behold, I will make H7760 thee a new (Strong’s H2319) sharp H2742threshing H4173 instrument having H1167 teeth: H6374 thou shalt thresh H1758 the mountains, H2022 and beat them small, H1854 and shalt make H7760 the hills H1389 as chaff. H4671

Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things H7223 are come to pass, H935 and new things (Strong’s H2319) do I declare: H5046 before they spring forth H6779 I tell H8085 you of them.

Isa 42:10 Sing H7891 unto the LORD H3068 a new (Strong’s H2319) song, H7892 and his praise H8416 from the end H7097 of the earth, H776 ye that go down H3381 to the sea, H3220 and all that is therein; H4393 the isles, H339 and the inhabitants H3427 thereof.

Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do H6213 a new thing; (Strong’s H2319) now it shall spring forth; H6779 shall ye not know H3045 it? I will even make H7760 a way H1870 in the wilderness, H4057 and rivers H5104 in the desert. H3452

Isa 48:6 Thou hast heard, H8085 see H2372 all this; and will not ye declare H5046 it? I have shewed H8085 thee new things (Strong’s H2319) from this time, H6258 even hidden things, H5341 and thou didst not know H3045 them.

Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles H1471 shall see H7200 thy righteousness, H6664 and all kings H4428 thy glory: H3519 and thou shalt be called H7121 by a new (Strong’s H2319) name, H5344 which the mouth H6310 of the LORD H3068shall name. H8034

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create H1254 new (Strong’s H2319) heavens H8064 and a new (Strong’s H2319) earth: H776 and the former H7223 shall not be remembered, H2142 nor come H5927 into mind. H3820

Isa 66:22 For as the new (Strong’s H2319) heavens H8064 and the new (Strong’s H2319)earth, H776 which I will make, H6213 shall remain H5975before H6440 me, saith H5002 the LORD, H3068 so shall your seed H2233 and your name H8034 remain. H5975

Jer 26:10 When the princes H8269 of Judah H3063 heard H8085 these things, H1697 then they came up H5927 from the king's H4428house H1004 unto the house H1004 of the LORD, H3068 and sat down H3427 in the entry H6607 of the new (Strong’s H2319) gate H8179 of the LORD'S H3068 house.

Jer 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, H2559 O thou backsliding H7728daughter? H1323 for the LORD H3068 hath created H1254 a new thing (Strong’s H2319) in the earth, H776 A woman H5347 shall compass H5437a man. H1397

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days H3117 come, H935 saith H5002 the LORD, H3068 that I will make H3772 a new (Strong’s H2319) covenant H1285 with the house H1004 of Israel, H3478 and with the house H1004 of Judah: H3063

Jer 36:10 Then read H7121 Baruch H1263 in the book H5612 the words H1697 of Jeremiah H3414 in the house H1004 of the LORD, H3068 in the chamber H3957 of Gemariah H1587 the son H1121 of Shaphan H8227the scribe, H5608 in the higher H5945 court, H2691 at the entry H6607of the new (Strong’s H2319) gate H8179 of the LORD'S H3068 house, H1004 in the ears H241 of all the people. H5971

Lam 3:23 They are new (Strong’s H2319) every morning: H1242 great H7227 is thy faithfulness. H530

Eze 11:19 And I will give H5414 them one H259 heart, H3820 and I will put H5414 a new (Strong’s H2319) spirit H7307 within H7130 you; and I will take H5493 the stony H68 heart H3820 out of their flesh, H1320 and will give H5414 them an heart H3820 of flesh: H1320

Eze 18:31 Cast away H7993 from you all your transgressions, H6588 whereby ye have transgressed; H6586 and make H6213 you a new (Strong’s H2319)heart H3820 and a new (Strong’s H2319) spirit: H7307 for why will ye die, H4191 O house H1004 of Israel? H3478

Eze 36:26 A new (Strong’s H2319) heart H3820 also will I give H5414 you, and a new (Strong’s H2319) spirit H7307 will I put H5414 within H7130 you: and I will take away H5493 the stony H68 heart H3820 out of your flesh, H1320and I will give H5414 you an heart H3820 of flesh. H1320

Blessings to you as well, Patrick
John 1720

 

[John 1720]

You're a kind brother and I appreciate that. Instead of going back and forth, let me share something. In 1611 (before if you want to include Tyndale and other early English translations) the word "gentile" was chosen for the Greek ethnos. However, the word gentile meant something entirely different back then and yet even though we have a completely different definition today, we still use that same word. My point is... when a modern English speaking mainstream Christian hears the word gentile, they define it one way, but a brother from the year 1750 who heard the word gentile would define it entirely differently. Do you understand? So, back in the early days of English bibles, a "Gentile" was defined as, "a heathen, a pagan, anyone not a Jew or Christian." (Source: 1828 Webster's) However, today the word is defined as, "any believer in Jesus who isn't Jewish." You are reading the NT and think one thing when you see the word gentile, and when I see that word I have an entirely different concept in my head.

Thanks. No, I have always understood Gentiles to mean ethnos and never paid attention to Tyndale, ect. No confusion there - the Greek speaks for itself as well as the Septuagint.

Israel was one nation and after Solomon they divided into two Kingdoms. Israel to the north (also known in Scripture as Joseph, Ephraim, and sometimes Samaria) and Judah to the south. Two Kingdoms, two Houses (Jer 31/ Heb 8) and two sticks (Ezek. 37). Israel went into Assyria after repeated warnings about their idolatry and instead of crying out and repenting... they assimilated into the Assyrian culture and became indistinguishable from their captors. Some came back and assimilated into Judah, even the Samarians who were part of the Northern Kingdom hid when the rest were taken and most joined with Judah or eventually the church... but most of Israel never came out of Assyria. After a time God scattered them into ALL nations (ethnos) and they were part of whatever culture they landed in... they were gentiles. At this point they become historically known as, "the lost sheep of the House of Israel." There was a promise to call them to repent (return) and that was where the weight of Yeshua's mission was on. His message was for ALL, but the weight was on reaching out into the nations (ethnos/gentiles) where Israel had been scattered.

Yes, I understand the history behind the Northern tribes as well. Yes they were scattered but its rather unlikely the ethne' we are talking about trace back to Hebrew DNA any more than modern Christians do. I certainly don't. It would be more than a bit of a leap to assume the Romans, Syrians, Ethiopians, Greek, Macedonians, etc that the apostles messaged Christ to were all from lost tribes.

My point in sharing this is that while the gospel is for ALL, the weight of the NT is on calling those back from the nations. This is even why we see James begin his letter as he does. So when we see gentile in the NT, sometimes it is speaking about any one who is not of Israel, and we may or may not be. But it can also be a reference to Israel in the nations and remember, ethnos can be translated as nations as well.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on your point. I think the evidence would show otherwise.

Paul's commission... you brought it up after I did but simply quoted it as if it supports him as the "apostle to the gentiles." Well, he is but not the way you think. May I share something about Paul's commission with you?

Sure!

May the Lord Bless, Patrick
John 1720

 

[Ken Rank]

Thanks. No, I have always understood Gentiles to mean ethnos and never paid attention to Tyndale, ect. No confusion there - the Greek speaks for itself as well as the Septuagint.

Yes, I understand the history behind the Northern tribes as well. Yes they were scattered but its rather unlikely the ethne' we are talking about trace back to Hebrew DNA any more than modern Christians do. I certainly don't. It would be more than a bit of a leap to assume the Romans, Syrians, Ethiopians, Greek, Macedonians, etc that the apostles messaged Christ to were all from lost tribes.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on your point. I think the evidence would show otherwise.

Sure!

May the Lord Bless, Patrick
John 1720

Just so I am clear... I abhor supercessionism. Absolutely stand against the whole concept. Blessings.