Did our prophet confirm part and not teach what was yet to be learned in the Bible?

[guevaraj]

Brothers! Did the spiritual gifts of our prophet confirm the understood part and not teach what was yet to be learned in the Bible? This was the understanding of our founders, the forgotten way in which God used our prophet. I say forgotten, because since her death our people “assume” she reveals everything to the point of rejecting the additional light from the Bible that confirms what our founders understood about how God used her. Our history about the change over the proper time to commence the Sabbath, established for 8 years God’s use of our prophet to confirm what had been understood correctly in the Bible, that it would be wrong to start the Sabbath at sunrise by Brother Bates, but did not teach or confirm further light until it was understood in the Bible. Later after 8 years, due to the additional study done by Brother Andrews, we learned that Brother Bates was right and wrong at the same time, he was right in rejecting the sunrise option but wrong to suppose 6 pm for the meaning of the word “evening” in the Leviticus passage. Only then did God use our prophet to confirm the additional light of the word “evening” being sunset as it is practiced in Israel to this day. Our church needs to remember how God used our prophet for 8 years and not assume that our traditions are correct because we had a prophet among us who did not question our traditions. We need to put our prophet in the proper place God placed her and not assume otherwise to defend our traditions from further light from God’s word. Your response will allow me to know whether my message is clear and should be understood by my people. I would be interested in suggestions on how I can make it even more clear to my people. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge.

James White, Review and Herald, February 25, 1868, page 168​

It is generally known to most of the readers of the Review, that for several years in the early history of Seventh-day Adventists, believers adopted six o'clock p.m. as the time for the Sabbath to commence and close. It is also known that in the autumn of 1855, the Review taught that sunset was the Bible time to commence the Sabbath, and that our people generally changed from six o'clock to sunset. Some of the circumstances connected with this change I wish here to state:

1. The six o'clock time was called in question by a portion of the believers as early as 1847, some maintaining that the Sabbath commenced at sunrise, while others claimed Bible evidence in favor of sunset.
2. Elder Joseph Bates, who was the first to teach the Sabbath in its importance, and faithfully labor to bring out a people from among the Adventists to observe it, was very decided upon the question, and respect for his years, and his godly life, might have been among the reasons why this point was not sooner investigated as thoroughly as some other points.
3. In the autumn of 1855, Elder J. N. Andrews called on me at Battle Creek, on his way to Iowa, and set before me the scriptural reasons for commencing the Sabbath at sunset. He had written a clear article upon the subject, which he left with me, and which appeared in the Review for December 4, 1855. This article, however, before it appeared in the Review was read at the Conference at Battle Creek about that time, and the subject was discussed, resulting in settling the minds of the brethren on the sunset-time, with the exception of Brother Bates, and a few others. Since that time there has been general agreement among us upon the subject.

But there are persons who seek to injure us as a people and this class we hope to help by this article who report and publish to the world that Mrs. White did profess to be shown that the time to commence the Sabbath was six o'clock, and that at a later period she was shown that sunset was the true time. It is also stated that in vision she saw the dial-plate of a clock with one hand pointing to the 6, and other to 12, showing that six o'clock was the commencement and close of the Sabbath.

A simple statement of the facts in the case are sufficient to show these reports false. Hence we give the following statements, which we are ready to prove by most competent witnesses:

1. Mrs. White has in two visions been shown something in regard to the time of the commencement of the Sabbath. The first was as early as 1847, at Topsham, Main. In the vision she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths." Brother Bates was present and succeeded in satisfying all present that "even" was six o'clock. Mark this: The vision at Topsham did not teach the six o'clock time. It only corrected sunrise time. I never received the idea that the six o'clock time was sustained by the visions, hence the following which I copy from a statement I made in the Review upon the subject, December 4, 1855, as follows:
   • “We have never been fully satisfied with the testimony presented in favor of six o'clock, while the various communications received for a few years past advocating both sunrise and sunset time, have been almost destitute of argument, and the spirit of humility and candor. The subject has troubled us, yet we have never found time to thoroughly investigate it.
   • “In June, 1854, we urged Elder D. P. Hall to prepare an article on the subject for the Review. When with him in Pennsylvania, last winter, we repeated the request. When in Maine, last summer, we stated our feelings on this subject to Brother Andrews, and have fears of division unless the question could be settled by good testimony. He decided to devote his time to the subject till he ascertained what the Bible taught in regard to it, and his article in this number is the result of his investigation. Some have the impression that six o'clock time has been taught among us by the direct manifestation of the Holy Spirit. This is a mistake; ‘From even unto even’ was the teaching from which six o'clock time has been inferred.”
2. In regard to the clock-face, twenty competent witnesses are ready to testify that neither Mrs. White nor her visions had anything to do with it whatever. When at Rocky Hill, Conn., in 1849, at a meeting on the Sabbath at the house of Brother Albert Belden, the time to commence the Sabbath was agitated. A brother present in whose spiritual exercises there was great confidence, seemed to be very powerfully exercised, and, amid groans and tears, he called for the chalk, and marked out upon the floor the figure of a clock face, the hands pointing out six o'clock. A general impression prevailed that this was the work of the Spirit of God; but Mrs. White had nothing to do with it whatever.
3. At the close of the conference at Battle Creek referred to above, the ministers and others, especially interested in the cause had a special season of prayer for the prosperity of the cause, and in that meeting Mrs. White had a vision, one item of which was that sun set time was correct. This settled the matter with Brother Bates and others, and general harmony has since prevailed among us upon this point.

But the question naturally arises, If the visions are given to correct the erring, why did she not sooner see the error of the six o'clock time? For one I have ever been thankful that God corrected the error in his own good time, and did not suffer an unhappy division to exist among us upon the point. But, dear reader, the work of the Lord upon this point is in perfect harmony with his manifestations to us on others, and in harmony with the correct position upon spiritual gifts.

It does not appear to be the desire of the Lord to teach his people by the gifts of the Spirit on the Bible questions until his servants have diligently searched his word. When this was done upon the subject of time to commence the Sabbath, and most were established, and some were in danger of being out of harmony with the body on this subject, then, yes, then, was the very time for God to magnify his goodness in the manifestation of the gift of his Spirit in the accomplishment of its proper work.

The sacred Scriptures are given us as the rule of faith and duty, and we are commanded to search them. If we fail to understand and fully obey the truths in consequences of not searching the Scriptures as we should, or a want of consecration and spiritual discernment, and God in mercy in his own time corrects us by some manifestation of the gifts of his Holy Spirit, instead of murmuring that he did not do it before, let us humbly acknowledge his mercy, and praise him for his infinite goodness in condescending to correct us at all.

Let the gifts have their proper place in the church. God has never set them in the very front, and commanded us to look to them to lead us in the path of truth, and the way to Heaven. His word he has magnified. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are man's lamp to light up his path to the kingdom. Follow that. But if you err from Bible truth, and are in danger of being lost, it may be that God will in time of his choice correct you, and bring you back to the Bible and save you. And would it become you in such a case to murmur and say, “Lord, why didst thou not do this before?” Take care! “Be still, and know that I am God.” Our necessity is his opportunity to teach us by the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Loyce KG]

Brothers! Did the spiritual gifts of our prophet confirm the understood part and not teach what was yet to be learned in the Bible? This was the understanding of our founders, the forgotten way in which God used our prophet. I say forgotten, because since her death our people “assume” she reveals everything to the point of rejecting the additional light from the Bible that confirms what our founders understood about how God used her. Our history about the change over the proper time to commence the Sabbath, established for 8 years God’s use of our prophet to confirm what had been understood correctly in the Bible, that it would be wrong to start the Sabbath at sunrise by Brother Bates, but did not teach or confirm further light until it was understood in the Bible. Later after 8 years, due to the additional study done by Brother Andrews, we learned that Brother Bates was right and wrong at the same time, he was right in rejecting the sunrise option but wrong to suppose 6 pm for the meaning of the word “evening” in the Leviticus passage. Only then did God use our prophet to confirm the additional light of the word “evening” being sunset as it is practiced in Israel to this day. Our church needs to remember how God used our prophet for 8 years and not assume that our traditions are correct because we had a prophet among us who did not question our traditions. We need to put our prophet in the proper place God placed her and not assume otherwise to defend our traditions from further light from God’s word. Your response will allow me to know whether my message is clear and should be understood by my people. I would be interested in suggestions on how I can make it even more clear to my people. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge.

James White, Review and Herald, February 25, 1868, page 168​

It is generally known to most of the readers of the Review, that for several years in the early history of Seventh-day Adventists, believers adopted six o'clock p.m. as the time for the Sabbath to commence and close. It is also known that in the autumn of 1855, the Review taught that sunset was the Bible time to commence the Sabbath, and that our people generally changed from six o'clock to sunset. Some of the circumstances connected with this change I wish here to state:

1. The six o'clock time was called in question by a portion of the believers as early as 1847, some maintaining that the Sabbath commenced at sunrise, while others claimed Bible evidence in favor of sunset.
2. Elder Joseph Bates, who was the first to teach the Sabbath in its importance, and faithfully labor to bring out a people from among the Adventists to observe it, was very decided upon the question, and respect for his years, and his godly life, might have been among the reasons why this point was not sooner investigated as thoroughly as some other points.
3. In the autumn of 1855, Elder J. N. Andrews called on me at Battle Creek, on his way to Iowa, and set before me the scriptural reasons for commencing the Sabbath at sunset. He had written a clear article upon the subject, which he left with me, and which appeared in the Review for December 4, 1855. This article, however, before it appeared in the Review was read at the Conference at Battle Creek about that time, and the subject was discussed, resulting in settling the minds of the brethren on the sunset-time, with the exception of Brother Bates, and a few others. Since that time there has been general agreement among us upon the subject.

But there are persons who seek to injure us as a people and this class we hope to help by this article who report and publish to the world that Mrs. White did profess to be shown that the time to commence the Sabbath was six o'clock, and that at a later period she was shown that sunset was the true time. It is also stated that in vision she saw the dial-plate of a clock with one hand pointing to the 6, and other to 12, showing that six o'clock was the commencement and close of the Sabbath.

A simple statement of the facts in the case are sufficient to show these reports false. Hence we give the following statements, which we are ready to prove by most competent witnesses:

1. Mrs. White has in two visions been shown something in regard to the time of the commencement of the Sabbath. The first was as early as 1847, at Topsham, Main. In the vision she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths." Brother Bates was present and succeeded in satisfying all present that "even" was six o'clock. Mark this: The vision at Topsham did not teach the six o'clock time. It only corrected sunrise time. I never received the idea that the six o'clock time was sustained by the visions, hence the following which I copy from a statement I made in the Review upon the subject, December 4, 1855, as follows:
   • “We have never been fully satisfied with the testimony presented in favor of six o'clock, while the various communications received for a few years past advocating both sunrise and sunset time, have been almost destitute of argument, and the spirit of humility and candor. The subject has troubled us, yet we have never found time to thoroughly investigate it.
   • “In June, 1854, we urged Elder D. P. Hall to prepare an article on the subject for the Review. When with him in Pennsylvania, last winter, we repeated the request. When in Maine, last summer, we stated our feelings on this subject to Brother Andrews, and have fears of division unless the question could be settled by good testimony. He decided to devote his time to the subject till he ascertained what the Bible taught in regard to it, and his article in this number is the result of his investigation. Some have the impression that six o'clock time has been taught among us by the direct manifestation of the Holy Spirit. This is a mistake; ‘From even unto even’ was the teaching from which six o'clock time has been inferred.”
2. In regard to the clock-face, twenty competent witnesses are ready to testify that neither Mrs. White nor her visions had anything to do with it whatever. When at Rocky Hill, Conn., in 1849, at a meeting on the Sabbath at the house of Brother Albert Belden, the time to commence the Sabbath was agitated. A brother present in whose spiritual exercises there was great confidence, seemed to be very powerfully exercised, and, amid groans and tears, he called for the chalk, and marked out upon the floor the figure of a clock face, the hands pointing out six o'clock. A general impression prevailed that this was the work of the Spirit of God; but Mrs. White had nothing to do with it whatever.
3. At the close of the conference at Battle Creek referred to above, the ministers and others, especially interested in the cause had a special season of prayer for the prosperity of the cause, and in that meeting Mrs. White had a vision, one item of which was that sun set time was correct. This settled the matter with Brother Bates and others, and general harmony has since prevailed among us upon this point.

But the question naturally arises, If the visions are given to correct the erring, why did she not sooner see the error of the six o'clock time? For one I have ever been thankful that God corrected the error in his own good time, and did not suffer an unhappy division to exist among us upon the point. But, dear reader, the work of the Lord upon this point is in perfect harmony with his manifestations to us on others, and in harmony with the correct position upon spiritual gifts.

It does not appear to be the desire of the Lord to teach his people by the gifts of the Spirit on the Bible questions until his servants have diligently searched his word. When this was done upon the subject of time to commence the Sabbath, and most were established, and some were in danger of being out of harmony with the body on this subject, then, yes, then, was the very time for God to magnify his goodness in the manifestation of the gift of his Spirit in the accomplishment of its proper work.

The sacred Scriptures are given us as the rule of faith and duty, and we are commanded to search them. If we fail to understand and fully obey the truths in consequences of not searching the Scriptures as we should, or a want of consecration and spiritual discernment, and God in mercy in his own time corrects us by some manifestation of the gifts of his Holy Spirit, instead of murmuring that he did not do it before, let us humbly acknowledge his mercy, and praise him for his infinite goodness in condescending to correct us at all.

Let the gifts have their proper place in the church. God has never set them in the very front, and commanded us to look to them to lead us in the path of truth, and the way to Heaven. His word he has magnified. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are man's lamp to light up his path to the kingdom. Follow that. But if you err from Bible truth, and are in danger of being lost, it may be that God will in time of his choice correct you, and bring you back to the Bible and save you. And would it become you in such a case to murmur and say, “Lord, why didst thou not do this before?” Take care! “Be still, and know that I am God.” Our necessity is his opportunity to teach us by the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SkyWriting]

But if you err from Bible truth, and are in danger of being lost, it may be that God will in time of his choice correct you, and bring you back to the Bible and save you.

No danger exists.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Jeremiah 17:10
“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

[Anto9us]

Mat 12:1
At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

Mat 12:2
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

Mat 12:3
But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

Mat 12:4
How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

Mat 12:5
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 12:6
But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

Mat 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mat 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

The "Sabbath" never changed from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday; but Christians began to meet on the first day of the week (Sunday). I feel it is incorrect to call sunday "sabbath", but correct for Christians to meet then.

I regard every day alike.

I assume 'the prophet' in OP is Ellen White?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Let the gifts have their proper place in the church. God has never set them in the very front, and commanded us to look to them to lead us in the path of truth, and the way to Heaven. His word he has magnified. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are man's lamp to light up his path to the kingdom. Follow that. But if you err from Bible truth, and are in danger of being lost, it may be that God will in time of his choice correct you, and bring you back to the Bible and save you. And would it become you in such a case to murmur and say, “Lord, why didst thou not do this before?” Take care! “Be still, and know that I am God.” Our necessity is his opportunity to teach us by the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

It is good to know that Mrs. White did not receive two contradictory visions, but that it was man that jumped the gun and interpreted his own will onto the matter (6 pm). But God had the final word as to the accuracy of what Scripture says and means. After all, He's the Author.

Did I miss it or was 6 pm also determined to be the end of the Sabbath Saturday night?

I especially like this last paragraph as it speaks to my own gifts of the Spirit. I remember praying and asking God what some difficult passages that I was studying meant, and with each question, I would receive the answer the next morning clear as a bell as I was just waking, before I even opened my eyes.

 

[guevaraj]

God desires obedience over sacrifices and offerings.

Sister, it is very true that God desires obedience to His truths revealed in the Bible. The Father wants worshipers to worship in "truth" and not in error. Following the "truth" will be even more important when Jesus returns allowing Him to separate those who are prepared in the story of "The Parable of the Ten Virgins" from those who are not and stay outside of the closed door. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge.

 

[St. Helens]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[guevaraj]

No danger exists.

Brother, there is the "danger" of allowing our traditions to blind us to the revealed truths that prepare us for the soon return of Jesus. I certainly do not want to be among those left outside the closed door in "The Parable of the Ten Virgins" when Jesus returns. I want to be ready to be with Jesus, never to be separated from Jesus. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge.

 

[SkyWriting]

So bring extra oil then.

 

[guevaraj]

The "Sabbath" never changed from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday; but Christians began to meet on the first day of the week (Sunday). I feel it is incorrect to call sunday "sabbath", but correct for Christians to meet then.

Brother, I agree that it is OK to meet everyday of the week, as the early church did, but the true Sabbath was set apart by God as a unique day of the week, because He tells us that in that day He rested from His prior six days of creation.

I regard every day alike.

The seventh day of the week was unique to God who set it apart by being the only day of the week with a name, a day that He blessed and sanctified as unique.

I assume 'the prophet' in OP is Ellen White?

Yes, united in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge.

 

[guevaraj]

It is good to know that Mrs. White did not receive two contradictory visions, but that it was man that jumped the gun and interpreted his own will onto the matter (6 pm). But God had the final word as to the accuracy of what Scripture says and means. After all, He's the Author.

Brother, the consistency of God's message, despite our misunderstanding of it throughout history, fills me with faith that He will do all that He has revealed through His prophets.

Did I miss it or was 6 pm also determined to be the end of the Sabbath Saturday night?

Yes, from 6 pm on Friday to 6 pm on Saturday for 8 years.

I especially like this last paragraph as it speaks to my own gifts of the Spirit. I remember praying and asking God what some difficult passages that I was studying meant, and with each question, I would receive the answer the next morning clear as a bell as I was just waking, before I even opened my eyes.

I have felt the leading promised by Jesus that the Holly Spirit would lead us to all truth, but traditions do blind us to the leading of the Holly Spirit. We must be vigilant and not delegate our truth finding to our leaders, who have other more pressing concerns then finding the truth, like keeping us together when the truth can split us. The leadership is an impediment to the truth, the truth rises from the bottom up as was the case in our history and does not start at the top of the leadership, as evident in there being so many denominations whose leadership is more concerned with keeping the group together then finding the truth.

 

[guevaraj]

So bring extra oil then.

Brother, I have a lot of extra oil to sell to those who want to be ready when Jesus returns. You do not buy it with money, but it costs you, it may even separate you from your family. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Brother, the consistency of God's message, despite our misunderstanding of it throughout history, fills me with faith that He will do all that He has revealed through His prophets.

My name is 1stcenturylady

e must be vigilant and not delegate our truth finding to our leaders, who have other more pressing concerns then finding the truth, like keeping us together when the truth can split us.

I no longer hold to the leadership of denominations. There are too many mistakes in doctrine, so I depend on the Holy Spirit to bring me into all truth.

 

[guevaraj]

My name is 1stcenturylady

Sister, my apologies.

I no longer hold to the leadership of denominations. There are too many mistakes in doctrine, so I depend on the Holy Spirit to bring be into all truth.

Wonderful, then I have a lot of oil to sell you before it is too late to buy it as revealed in "The Parable of the Ten Virgins". With "oil", I mean truth reveled by the Holly Spirit in the Bible. Since you do not have the traditions of a church to defend, you will be a good subject to discover if what I am sharing makes sense, without the blindness that I see in many defending traditions because they assume that their church is correct. There may be something wrong with me because I see what many others of my church do not see, but I have already spoken with enough people to feel confidant in my ability to identify the truth in the Bible. Before you dismiss me as someone who is not worth your time, I have a masters degree in divinity from Andrews University, where I studied the original languages of the Bible. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Sister, my apologies.


Wonderful, then I have a lot of oil to sell you before it is too late to buy it as revealed in "The Parable of the Ten Virgins". With "oil", I mean truth reveled by the Holly Spirit in the Bible. Since you do not have the traditions of a church to defend, you will be a good subject to discover if what I am sharing makes sense, without the blindness that I see in many defending traditions because they assume that their church is correct. There may be something wrong with me because I see what many others of my church do not see, but I have already spoken with enough people to feel confidant in my ability to identify the truth in the Bible. Before you dismiss me as someone who is not worth your time, I have a masters degree in divinity from Andrews University, where I studied the original languages of the Bible. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge.

My father went to Andrews University. I went to Southern Missionary College, now Southern Adventist University. I left the denomination when I was 23 in 1970. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in 1977 and had my first vision at that time, plus have been clearly able to hear His voice ever since. In fact, I wait to hear Him tell me what to pray according to John 15:7, I repeat the prayer, and it is answered immediately, with 100% accuracy. I never have a prayer unanswered, because I never pray my own will, just His. And as I already told you, He teaches me the meaning of His word when I am just waking, before my mind is cluttered with being fully awake. He has blessed me with all the signs of Mark 16:16-18 that He gives to all who believe, and the first 6 gifts of the Spirit of 1 Corinthians 12.

Thank you for your offer, though, at my age, I should be teaching you. LOL Maybe we should share with each other. What have you learned from the Spirit that is not like other Adventists, and not traditional Adventism? I would be very interested in that! I have met other Spirit-filled teachers and one was an Adventist pastor. Imagine my surprise!

 

[guevaraj]

What have you learned from the Spirit that is not like other Adventists, and not traditional Adventism? I would be very interested in that!

Sister, after the second vision there was more to learn about the Sabbath and our prophet had only confirmed two small steps toward the whole story. In both cases, the church “assumed” that she was telling us everything. As it was "supposed" for 8 years that the first vision in 1847 confirmed the understanding of Brother Bates, we made the same mistake in "assuming" until this day, 164 years later, the second vision in 1855 confirmed the understanding of the commencement of the Sabbath of Brother Andrews, when in fact in each case we had got a little closer and we did not have the complete story. Both visions pointed to where in the Bible there was more to learn, but those clues were ignored, "assuming" that our prophet would reveal everything, and that no further study of the Bible was needed. As the first vision sent us to Leviticus to learn more, the second vision sent us to Genesis to learn more. Let’s look more closely at both visions to see the clues God gave us to learn more about the beginning of the Sabbath in the Bible. Her husband James White gives us the account of the first vision.

Mrs. White has in two visions been shown something in regard to the time of the commencement of the Sabbath. The first was as early as 1847, at Topsham, Maine. In that vision she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths." Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that "even" was six o'clock. (James White, Review and Herald, February 25, 1868, page 168)​

The first vision points to Leviticus 23:32, where the word “evening” needed further study. This study was finally carried out to the satisfaction of majority of the church 8 years later by Brother Andrews. The second vision comes after this study by Brother Andrews, confirming the meaning of the word “evening” in the Leviticus passage in God’s direct instructions to Israel.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church Volume One, Page 116)​

The second vision also points to Genesis, where the full day is most clearly distinguished in Genesis 1:3-5 from sunrise to sunrise and, therefore, the seventh day Sabbath was observed by God from sunrise to sunrise. This study has yet to be officially done by the church and, therefore, no change has been made. Allow me to put together the complete story for you. In the first vision, our prophet confirmed it would be wrong to begin the Sabbath at sunrise here in the United States. The second vision confirmed that it was right to start the Sabbath in Israel at sunset, just as the Jews have done to this day. The fact is that we have in the Bible the proper observance of the Sabbath in two places and something different is done in each place. In Eden the first Sabbath was separated by God from sunrise to sunrise, the seventh full day of the week. However, in Israel, the Sabbath starts 12 hours before the seventh local full day, they begin the Sabbath in the middle of the 6th day, the day of preparation, and end the Sabbath in the middle of the seventh day. This difference made in two locations is contrary to our tradition of doing the same in each location. In conclusion, what is consistent in the Bible reveals that the proper observance of the Sabbath is in the time zone of Eden and that is why Israel observes the Sabbath 12 hours before its seventh local day. Here in the United States, the time to start the Sabbath is 17 hours before our seventh local day. Israel is our example starting the Sabbath 12 hours earlier than in Eden. The previous step of understanding the word “evening” helps us understand in Genesis the days of creation to begin with the period of light and end with the period of darkness and that each day of creation ends in the morning instead of in the evening as in the Leviticus passage. This is not something that is easily learned, that is why the Lord has patiently pushed us one step at a time. I do not expect you to see it right away. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[1stcenturylady]

Sister, after the second vision there was more to learn about the Sabbath and our prophet had only confirmed two small steps toward the whole story. In both cases, the church “assumed” that she was telling us everything. As it was "supposed" for 8 years that the first vision in 1847 confirmed the understanding of Brother Bates, we made the same mistake in "assuming" until this day, 164 years later, the second vision in 1855 confirmed the understanding of the commencement of the Sabbath of Brother Andrews, when in fact in each case we had got a little closer and we did not have the complete story. Both visions pointed to where in the Bible there was more to learn, but those clues were ignored, "assuming" that our prophet would reveal everything, and that no further study of the Bible was needed. As the first vision sent us to Leviticus to learn more, the second vision sent us to Genesis to learn more. Let’s look more closely at both visions to see the clues God gave us to learn more about the beginning of the Sabbath in the Bible. Her husband James White gives us the account of the first vision.

Mrs. White has in two visions been shown something in regard to the time of the commencement of the Sabbath. The first was as early as 1847, at Topsham, Maine. In that vision she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths." Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that "even" was six o'clock. (James White, Review and Herald, February 25, 1868, page 168)​

The first vision points to Leviticus 23:32, where the word “evening” needed further study. This study was finally carried out to the satisfaction of majority of the church 8 years later by Brother Andrews. The second vision comes after this study by Brother Andrews, confirming the meaning of the word “evening” in the Leviticus passage in God’s direct instructions to Israel.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church Volume One, Page 116)​

The second vision also points to Genesis, where the full day is most clearly distinguished in Genesis 1:3-5 from sunrise to sunrise and, therefore, the seventh day Sabbath was observed by God from sunrise to sunrise. This study has yet to be officially done by the church and, therefore, no change has been made. Allow me to put together the complete story for you. In the first vision, our prophet confirmed it would be wrong to begin the Sabbath at sunrise here in the United States. The second vision confirmed that it was right to start the Sabbath in Israel at sunset, just as the Jews have done to this day. The fact is that we have in the Bible the proper observance of the Sabbath in two places and something different is done in each place. In Eden the first Sabbath was separated by God from sunrise to sunrise, the seventh full day of the week. However, in Israel, the Sabbath starts 12 hours before the seventh local full day, they begin the Sabbath in the middle of the 6th day, the day of preparation, and end the Sabbath in the middle of the seventh day. This difference made in two locations is contrary to our tradition of doing the same in each location. In conclusion, what is consistent in the Bible reveals that the proper observance of the Sabbath is in the time zone of Eden and that is why Israel observes the Sabbath 12 hours before its seventh local day. Here in the United States, the time to start the Sabbath is 17 hours before our seventh local day. Israel is our example starting the Sabbath 12 hours earlier than in Eden. The previous step of understanding the word “evening” helps us understand in Genesis the days of creation to begin with the period of light and end with the period of darkness and that each day of creation ends in the morning instead of in the evening as in the Leviticus passage. This is not something that is easily learned, that is why the Lord has patiently pushed us one step at a time. I do not expect you to see it right away. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

The way Genesis is written, isn't it interesting that you could make a case for only 12 hours of the day. What about Sabbath afternoon to evening?

What Bible version says from sunrise to sunrise? That, at least, is a full day - 24 hours.

But personally, I've always believed it was sunset to sunset.

 

[guevaraj]

The way Genesis is written, isn't it interesting that you could make a case for only 12 hours of the day.

Sister, let me take this opportunity to give credit where credit is due, this understanding did not start with me. I was participating in a forum in Spanish called foroadventista.org when, as you say, a non-Adventist called by the username “bebelobsky” made an argument for a 12-hour day. Let’s see what he said that started this journey of discovery for me, translated from Spanish.

Well, in reality it seems that the prophecy does not say 2,300 days, but 2,300 evenings and mornings. You conclude that one afternoon + one morning is a 24-hour day and it seems to me that if one reads Gen. 1:5 the "afternoons and mornings" are 12-hour days. Indeed, Gen. 1:5 says that God separated the darkness from the light and the darkness called night and the light called day. And I do not understand why Moses says it was afternoon and morning the first day. I do not understand why God never said evening and morning but night and day. Maybe you can explain it. (bebelobsky, translated from Spanish)​

Knowing very well the word “evening” to mean sunset, I came to the conclusion that he was right, the period mentioned repeatedly in Genesis every day of the week of creation is only half a full day Sabbath period mentioned in Leviticus. More precisely, it is the first half of a full day Sabbath in Israel, the period that God called the “night”, which in the case of the Genesis passage in chapter 1, verses 3 to 5 concluded the first day that began with light. What is happening each day of creation is that God reports on what He created during the first half of a full day and then concludes the day with the second half of the “night” period with nothing to report during that second half of a full day. God always rested from creating on every “night” period and only created during the first half of a full day of creation.

What about Sabbath afternoon to evening?

The periods mentioned in both Genesis and Leviticus begin in the same way but end differently. In Both Genesis 1:5 and Leviticus 23:32, the periods begin with the same word, “evening”, but in Genesis the period ends in the middle morning compared to Leviticus, where the period ends later with a second “evening”. A Sabbath in Israel begins with the half part named by God “night” and ends with the half part of light, but in Genesis the “night” part concludes the first full day that began with the light part. You must have light before you can have an “evening”, the transition from light to darkness. The missing half part of a full day in Genesis is the earlier light part of the first full day, the period from morning to evening, a period not mentioned in any of the days of creation because during this period God gives us instead what He created each day before the “night” period, where He has nothing to report during this second half period from evening to morning ending the full day each day of creation. God has nothing to report during this night half because He stops creating during this second half of each full day.

What Bible version says from sunrise to sunrise? That, at least, is a full day - 24 hours.

The full days recorded in Genesis never mentioned the first half period of the morning to an evening, because during that time God instead has much to say about His creating. He mentions the beginning and end of the second half of each full day because He has nothing to report during that period. He creates during the first half of a full day and stops creating during the second half of a full day every day of creation.

But personally, I've always believed it was sunset to sunset.

We stopped studding the Sabbath at the Leviticus passage when there was more to learn in Genesis. We “assumed” that Genesis would have nothing more to add to the instructions given to Israel in Leviticus 23:32. Our tradition took hold by “assuming” instead of studying all of God’s word to be sure that we had fully understood it. We took a shortcut and never bothered to study it anymore, and now that the tradition has taken hold it is difficult for the church to see beyond the tradition. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[1stcenturylady]

Sister, after the second vision there was more to learn about the Sabbath and our prophet had only confirmed two small steps toward the whole story. In both cases, the church “assumed” that she was telling us everything. As it was "supposed" for 8 years that the first vision in 1847 confirmed the understanding of Brother Bates, we made the same mistake in "assuming" until this day, 164 years later, the second vision in 1855 confirmed the understanding of the commencement of the Sabbath of Brother Andrews, when in fact in each case we had got a little closer and we did not have the complete story. Both visions pointed to where in the Bible there was more to learn, but those clues were ignored, "assuming" that our prophet would reveal everything, and that no further study of the Bible was needed. As the first vision sent us to Leviticus to learn more, the second vision sent us to Genesis to learn more. Let’s look more closely at both visions to see the clues God gave us to learn more about the beginning of the Sabbath in the Bible. Her husband James White gives us the account of the first vision.

Mrs. White has in two visions been shown something in regard to the time of the commencement of the Sabbath. The first was as early as 1847, at Topsham, Maine. In that vision she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths." Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that "even" was six o'clock. (James White, Review and Herald, February 25, 1868, page 168)​

The first vision points to Leviticus 23:32, where the word “evening” needed further study. This study was finally carried out to the satisfaction of majority of the church 8 years later by Brother Andrews. The second vision comes after this study by Brother Andrews, confirming the meaning of the word “evening” in the Leviticus passage in God’s direct instructions to Israel.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church Volume One, Page 116)​

The second vision also points to Genesis, where the full day is most clearly distinguished in Genesis 1:3-5 from sunrise to sunrise and, therefore, the seventh day Sabbath was observed by God from sunrise to sunrise. This study has yet to be officially done by the church and, therefore, no change has been made. Allow me to put together the complete story for you. In the first vision, our prophet confirmed it would be wrong to begin the Sabbath at sunrise here in the United States. The second vision confirmed that it was right to start the Sabbath in Israel at sunset, just as the Jews have done to this day. The fact is that we have in the Bible the proper observance of the Sabbath in two places and something different is done in each place. In Eden the first Sabbath was separated by God from sunrise to sunrise, the seventh full day of the week. However, in Israel, the Sabbath starts 12 hours before the seventh local full day, they begin the Sabbath in the middle of the 6th day, the day of preparation, and end the Sabbath in the middle of the seventh day. This difference made in two locations is contrary to our tradition of doing the same in each location. In conclusion, what is consistent in the Bible reveals that the proper observance of the Sabbath is in the time zone of Eden and that is why Israel observes the Sabbath 12 hours before its seventh local day. Here in the United States, the time to start the Sabbath is 17 hours before our seventh local day. Israel is our example starting the Sabbath 12 hours earlier than in Eden. The previous step of understanding the word “evening” helps us understand in Genesis the days of creation to begin with the period of light and end with the period of darkness and that each day of creation ends in the morning instead of in the evening as in the Leviticus passage. This is not something that is easily learned, that is why the Lord has patiently pushed us one step at a time. I do not expect you to see it right away. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

So do you know anything on other subjects besides the Sabbath? What about sin? What did Jesus do about the problem of sin? What about our sin nature?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Sister, after the second vision there was more to learn about the Sabbath and our prophet had only confirmed two small steps toward the whole story. In both cases, the church “assumed” that she was telling us everything. As it was "supposed" for 8 years that the first vision in 1847 confirmed the understanding of Brother Bates, we made the same mistake in "assuming" until this day, 164 years later, the second vision in 1855 confirmed the understanding of the commencement of the Sabbath of Brother Andrews, when in fact in each case we had got a little closer and we did not have the complete story. Both visions pointed to where in the Bible there was more to learn, but those clues were ignored, "assuming" that our prophet would reveal everything, and that no further study of the Bible was needed. As the first vision sent us to Leviticus to learn more, the second vision sent us to Genesis to learn more. Let’s look more closely at both visions to see the clues God gave us to learn more about the beginning of the Sabbath in the Bible. Her husband James White gives us the account of the first vision.

Mrs. White has in two visions been shown something in regard to the time of the commencement of the Sabbath. The first was as early as 1847, at Topsham, Maine. In that vision she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths." Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that "even" was six o'clock. (James White, Review and Herald, February 25, 1868, page 168)​

The first vision points to Leviticus 23:32, where the word “evening” needed further study. This study was finally carried out to the satisfaction of majority of the church 8 years later by Brother Andrews. The second vision comes after this study by Brother Andrews, confirming the meaning of the word “evening” in the Leviticus passage in God’s direct instructions to Israel.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church Volume One, Page 116)​

The second vision also points to Genesis, where the full day is most clearly distinguished in Genesis 1:3-5 from sunrise to sunrise and, therefore, the seventh day Sabbath was observed by God from sunrise to sunrise. This study has yet to be officially done by the church and, therefore, no change has been made. Allow me to put together the complete story for you. In the first vision, our prophet confirmed it would be wrong to begin the Sabbath at sunrise here in the United States. The second vision confirmed that it was right to start the Sabbath in Israel at sunset, just as the Jews have done to this day. The fact is that we have in the Bible the proper observance of the Sabbath in two places and something different is done in each place. In Eden the first Sabbath was separated by God from sunrise to sunrise, the seventh full day of the week. However, in Israel, the Sabbath starts 12 hours before the seventh local full day, they begin the Sabbath in the middle of the 6th day, the day of preparation, and end the Sabbath in the middle of the seventh day. This difference made in two locations is contrary to our tradition of doing the same in each location. In conclusion, what is consistent in the Bible reveals that the proper observance of the Sabbath is in the time zone of Eden and that is why Israel observes the Sabbath 12 hours before its seventh local day. Here in the United States, the time to start the Sabbath is 17 hours before our seventh local day. Israel is our example starting the Sabbath 12 hours earlier than in Eden. The previous step of understanding the word “evening” helps us understand in Genesis the days of creation to begin with the period of light and end with the period of darkness and that each day of creation ends in the morning instead of in the evening as in the Leviticus passage. This is not something that is easily learned, that is why the Lord has patiently pushed us one step at a time. I do not expect you to see it right away. United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

See my post #18. Are you going to answer it or not?

The answer is not as easy as you might think. Most people get it wrong. But I guess you are ignoring me. Oh well.