Did mind–body dualism exist before original sin?

parousia70

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I'm saying the physical part didn't happen until original sin. ..decoherence ..wave collapse
Why?

And how do we know this, if what you said earlier is true?:

"If you are waves you don't know you are not physical."

If we don't know when we're not physical, how can we know when we are?
 
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pittsburghjoe

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"John Wheeler proposed one solution, that the universe was only a quantum wave until humans came along to interact with it and cause the collapse backwards in time. Hawking wrote that history happens backwards in time rather than forwards." - Andy Fletcher​

Original Sin started this fallen reality.
 
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chilehed

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Gregory Thompson

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I don't think you are getting what scientific proof of Sin would do to wake the world.
Not really, they'd just weaponize it.

If the element of decay could be quantified, we'd all be unable to die and still sinful.
 
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coffee4u

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Dust sounds like particles to me. And particles can be in waveform when not observed.

The closest thing they would have had, at the time, was to describe it as "dust".

They described it as dust because it was dust. ‘ā-p̄ār meaning dust or dry earth.
Normal, everyday dust. Nothing odd or spiritual or otherworldly to it. The only spiritual lesson here is that we are dirt and should remember that so as to be humble as Abraham was.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Ecclesiastes 12:7
And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Genesis 18:27

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes,

Job 34:15
all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.
 
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The Liturgist

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have a soul and body today but were we just a soul beforehand?

Mind–body dualism sounds like wave-particle duality to me. Would that mean we were quantum waves before sin?

Does sin have something to do with physical objects?

No, no, a thousand times no. Neither is there any sin in the apparently disorienting workings of quantum mechanics; extremely small objects simply exhibit wave-like behavior owing to the nature of the cosmos, which is known only to God. As for the rest of us, and in particular regard to those who attempt what one might jokingly call “Quantum theology,” I think I shall quote Richard Feynman, who said on numerous occasions and only partially in jest “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don’t understand quantum mechanics.”


That's Valentinian Gnosticism.

Valentinianism - Wikipedia

-CryptoLutheran

More than just that of Valentinus,* all forms of Gnosticism from the heresy of Simon Magus straight through to the Manichaeans, Cathars, Bogomils, and Paulicians, and indeed among the Mandaeans of today, are dualistic and feature the idea that matter is evil and only spirit is good, and in these religions, salvation generally consists of shedding matter in order to ascend to a pure spiritual realm.

This idea is of course contrary to all canonical sacred scripture, including the New Testament, even after Marcion attempted to edit it, he could not prove the Gnostic thesis, which is why the Gnostics wound up writing their own fabulous stories.

*What differentiates Valentinus from most is that his religion featured unusual doctrinal sophistication and specifically, explicitly Valentinian texts like “The Gospel of Truth” (a spectacular dual misnomer, for it is neither true nor a Gospel) have come down to us, which we can attribute to his cult with a certainty that exceeds, for example, the probability with which we can attribute some other works to the Tatianists, the Manichees, and other Gnostic sects. Indeed the only cases where we really have a clearer and better preservation of doctrine are in the case of the Paulicians, who converted to Orthodox Christianity in the 19th century leaving behind in fragments a polemical treatise called The Key of Truth, and the Mandaeans, who of course are still alive, but reject our Lord as a false Messiah and profess ostensibly to follow “the exact teachings” of John the Baptist, and to be the descendants of his disciples, which seems unlikely given by their own admission the Mandaeans are and always have been Mesopotamian.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm saying the physical part didn't happen until original sin. ..decoherence ..wave collapse

It’s clear you need to brush up on quantum mechanics, because decoherence and waveform collapse are not catastrophic events. Also, it is not the case that particles only become particles when observed; you are misinterpreting Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle.

Rather, it is the case that it is impossible to know both the velocity and position of a particle with certainty at any point in time. If you know the velocity, you don’t know the exact position, and if you know the exact position you don’t know the exact speed.

Now this translates to wave-function collapse simply in that when one does the Double Slit experiment a certain way where one would acquire knowledge of the position of the particle, the interference pattern disappears because the wave-function has been collapsed.

This works only with quantum particles. Also, pay close attention to the word “Quantum” because in advancing your argument, you are missing a key point about the behavior of quantum systems which undermines your argument, that being, that you can still project with extreme accuracy the statistical probability of a particle’s speed and location, you simply cannot say for certain in the case of individual particles because, frankly, they are really very small things which behave very differently even from large molecules (hence, for example, the wonderful world of solid-state electronics, which depends on this statistical probability becoming more certain on larger scales; there is a limit to Moore’s Law and it relates basically to how small a transistor can be before one can expect solid-state systems behavior).

Look up Professor Moriarty. at the University of Nottingham, who although an atheist for the moment due to, from his interviews, what sounds like traumatically bad catechesis by RC nuns in Ireland, is extremely upset about what he calls “Quantum Woo” and has done some brilliant YouTube videos on this subject.
 
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The Liturgist

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Entropy is disorder ..this fallen reality is full of it.
The fall caused a physical state.
The fall is Scalar Quantities https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/vectors.html

We are sitting on proof of sin.

The idea that scalar quantities are somehow sinful or foundational to sin is laughable and contrary to scripture and quantum mechanics.

You do realize that particles have both scalar and vector quantities simultaneously? If they only had vector quantities, this would be a world not unlike the projected Heat Death of the Universe, with everything being reduced to photons moving in random directions.

Also a disturbing aspect of the theology you outline is it has the propensity to suggest matter to energy conversion as a way to escape original sin. This is full of badness for reasons I shouldn’t even have to explain.
 
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LightLoveHope

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We have a soul and body today but were we just a soul beforehand?

Mind–body dualism sounds like wave-particle duality to me. Would that mean we were quantum waves before sin?

Does sin have something to do with physical objects?
Gnostic belief is what you are describing, an innocent spirit corrupted by physical reality.

Sin is embedded in independence, I stand alone, I do not need, I will survive. Our first breath is I need love, but on my terms without pain.

We are born separate from God denying the love we need, killing the very life we have as an image of our creator. Fear of losing this love turns violent, we want to posses that which is in our grasp.

Jesus and the cross is the dilemma we must solve in ourselves before we can see love breaking free, God bless you
 
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Jamdoc

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We have a soul and body today but were we just a soul beforehand?

Mind–body dualism sounds like wave-particle duality to me. Would that mean we were quantum waves before sin?

Does sin have something to do with physical objects?

Adam had a body before He had a soul. So no, and we were always intended to be physical beings. That's why the physical resurrection.

It is rather sad that people see physical nature as being inherently sinful.
Originally, the physical universe and earth was pure.
Someday, a physical new universe will be pure and stay pure.
We will have bodies like Christ, and they will be able to be touched and seen, as God has intended from the beginning.
 
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pittsburghjoe

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The idea that scalar quantities are somehow sinful or foundational to sin is laughable and contrary to scripture and quantum mechanics.

You do realize that particles have both scalar and vector quantities simultaneously? If they only had vector quantities, this would be a world not unlike the projected Heat Death of the Universe, with everything being reduced to photons moving in random directions.

Also a disturbing aspect of the theology you outline is it has the propensity to suggest matter to energy conversion as a way to escape original sin. This is full of badness for reasons I shouldn’t even have to explain.

Do you not see this as duality? Satan uses this idea of duality for false religions in this reality of the fallen. There isn't going to be a balance after this is over.
 
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chilehed

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do you have any idea that you are not physical?
Do you have any idea that you haven't the slightest understanding of physics?

Seriously. It's as if you were watching the 10-meter diving competition at the Olympics, and thinking that a gainer had something to do with radio circuit design. Word salad.
 
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parousia70

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Adam had a body before He had a soul. So no, and we were always intended to be physical beings. That's why the physical resurrection.
Not seeing the connection here.

It is rather sad that people see physical nature as being inherently sinful.
I agree. God Loves the World as it is right now. (John 3:16)
We are to Love what God Loves.
We will have bodies like Christ, and they will be able to be touched and seen, as God has intended from the beginning.
Will we retain any wounds we may have received in Death "Like Christ's Body" did? Or will our resurrected bodies be in superior physical condition to Christ's?
 
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parousia70

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pittsburghjoe

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Again, of course Jesus has ultimate authority ..but while we are here Satan has authority of nature.

Sin/death is only possible for humans in a place like this fallen reality. That's why Satan is known for both sin and death.
Jesus took away Satan's claim on everyone here as long as they believe in Jesus.
 
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parousia70

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Again, of course Jesus has ultimate authority

Is there any other authority? Scripture says He not only has Ultimate authority, he has ALL Authority. No other authority belongs to anyone else.

..but while we are here Satan has authority of nature.
I'd like to examine any Scripture that you believe teaches this.

Sin/death is only possible for humans in a place like this fallen reality. That's why Satan is known for both sin and death.
OK...
Jesus took away Satan's claim on everyone here as long as they believe in Jesus.

Are you saying that one day n the future even the unbelievers will share in Christ's victory over Satan?
 
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