Did Mary consent to being impregnated?

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So tell me, did Mary get a say in being impregnated? Because sometimes that part of the story just reads like get gets told that she'll be getting pregnant now, and, well, sure, she does say later on, "Okay, let it be so," that part of her response seems pretty inconsequential given the fact that she's already been told that it's going to happen regardless.

Believe me, I have a burning desire to want Mary to have agency. She did say, "Let it be according to your word." I want to let her yes be yes! What an empowering story that one would be, and what a deep and meaningful testament to the trust Mary had in God! Being pregnant was even more dangerous then than it is today. To top it off, being unwed and pregnant? And all that traveling. God didn't put her in an easy position, that's for sure. But she trusted God. And goodness knows the good book needs a woman or two with agency!

Her "Let it be according to your word," doesn't feel like consent. It feels like the child who pretends to be asleep when her dad comes into her room at night because she knows there's nothing she can do to stop what he is about to do anyway... and even if she wanted to try, how would she even begin to say "no" when they are on such unequal playing fields; she doesn't have the language yet to describe what he is doing.

How much did Mary know of the OT God? I'm not sure I know a lot about her regarding what education she would have had? Did she know enough to know how the OT women got treated? Look at Hagar. She was raped, repeatedly, and later mistreated by the wife of the man who raped her. She ran away and what did God do? God said, "Go back to the place where you get hurt." Where women do come up in the OT, it's no secret that they are generally either "vessels" or they meet unpleasant ends (or maybe both!) Would Mary have felt like she had any power to say "no" to a God who the OT credits with some pretty... strong... punishments?

So what is there to take away from that passage that just seems to be Mary being taken advantage of/being reduced to a vessel. I get the whole theme of obedience and all but the annunciation bit itself really still eats at me.
 

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So tell me, did Mary get a say in being impregnated? Because sometimes that part of the story just reads like get gets told that she'll be getting pregnant now, and, well, sure, she does say later on, "Okay, let it be so," that part of her response seems pretty inconsequential given the fact that she's already been told that it's going to happen regardless.

Believe me, I have a burning desire to want Mary to have agency. She did say, "Let it be according to your word." I want to let her yes be yes! What an empowering story that one would be, and what a deep and meaningful testament to the trust Mary had in God! Being pregnant was even more dangerous then than it is today. To top it off, being unwed and pregnant? And all that traveling. God didn't put her in an easy position, that's for sure. But she trusted God. And goodness knows the good book needs a woman or two with agency!

Her "Let it be according to your word," doesn't feel like consent. It feels like the child who pretends to be asleep when her dad comes into her room at night because she knows there's nothing she can do to stop what he is about to do anyway... and even if she wanted to try, how would she even begin to say "no" when they are on such unequal playing fields; she doesn't have the language yet to describe what he is doing.
........
So what is there to take away from that passage that just seems to be Mary being taken advantage of/being reduced to a vessel. I get the whole theme of obedience and all but the annunciation bit itself really still eats at me.

Women were very empowered, not by the culture per se, but by God and their stories are recorded for us in Scripture. Before I get to that. Let's talk about Mary and let's back up the dialogue to when the angel first announces his presence.He says to her, 'Hail Full of Grace!' Luke 1:28. Now whether or not Mary was conceived without original sin, I'm not sure the Scriptures say, but Luke 1:28 does indicate that angel found her full of grace upon his arrival and this says to me that God didn't just pick any girl, but created Mary especially for this purpose, just as he creates each of us for our own special purpose and has a plan for our life. For the angel continues on, 'The Lord is with you!' So no creepy father here. Next we are told that Mary is troubled, but the angel reassures her, 'You have found favor (grace) with God (Luke 1:30 )'. I prefer 'grace' over 'favor' because it reminds us that this is the threshold of Grace's appearance into the world in a whole new salvific way. Continuing on... 'And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.' (Luke 1:31-33) But Mary has questions and speaks , 'How can this be, since I know not man?' (Luke 1:34) Then the angel replies, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible.' It is after all this, after her fears or confusion are righted, and her questions answered that Mary is then able to say full-heartedly, 'Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.' (Luke 1:34-38)

How much did Mary know of the OT God? I'm not sure I know a lot about her regarding what education she would have had?

She would have known quite a lot actually. Her Magnificat bears that out. Even if she was a part of the lower classes and couldn't read, she would have heard the Scriptures read in the Synagogue and as a faithful Jewess would have committed them to memory.

Did she know enough to know how the OT women got treated? Look at Hagar. She was raped, repeatedly, and later mistreated by the wife of the man who raped her.

Hagar wasn't raped. She was Abraham's wife. And it was Hagar who had initially mistreated Sarah by taunting her. Hagar got pregnant, Sarah was still barren and Hagar used this fact to her advantage. Sarah then mistreats Hagar. In my opinion, they were both at fault:

Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face. (Gen 16:1-6)

She ran away and what did God do? God said, "Go back to the place where you get hurt."

No. He did say to return, but with a blessing, not a curse:
And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? 14Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered (Gen 6:7-14)

Where women do come up in the OT, it's no secret that they are generally either "vessels" or they meet unpleasant ends (or maybe both!)

Okay, let's do this in a Hebrews 11 fashion (They're in no particular order, just as they come to mind):

By Faith, Mothers and Wives insured that their households kept the Covenant with God.**** I really want to talk about this one...but this post is already so long and I need a break lol ;)
By Faith Jael with tent peg and hammer drove Israel's arch-enemy-Sisera's head into the ground.
By Faith Deborah judged Israel and was a channel of strength for men at war.
By Faith Judith took sword in hand and slit the throat of Holofernes, saving her city.
By Faith Ruth left her people, to join a people unknown, becoming a part of Christ's lineage.
By Faith Esther defied the order of the king and saved her entire nation from a holocaust.
(There are more, but I think that's good start for now)

Would Mary have felt like she had any power to say "no" to a God who the OT credits with some pretty... strong... punishments?

If she had said no, would Christ have come? And what strong punishments come to your mind?
 
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PeaceByJesus

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So tell me, did Mary get a say in being impregnated? Because sometimes that part of the story just reads like get gets told that she'll be getting pregnant now, and, well, sure, she does say later on, "Okay, let it be so," that part of her response seems pretty inconsequential given the fact that she's already been told that it's going to happen regardless.

Believe me, I have a burning desire to want Mary to have agency. She did say, "Let it be according to your word." I want to let her yes be yes! What an empowering story that one would be, and what a deep and meaningful testament to the trust Mary had in God! Being pregnant was even more dangerous then than it is today. To top it off, being unwed and pregnant? And all that traveling. God didn't put her in an easy position, that's for sure. But she trusted God. And goodness knows the good book needs a woman or two with agency!

Her "Let it be according to your word," doesn't feel like consent. It feels like the child who pretends to be asleep when her dad comes into her room at night because she knows there's nothing she can do to stop what he is about to do anyway... and even if she wanted to try, how would she even begin to say "no" when they are on such unequal playing fields; she doesn't have the language yet to describe what he is doing..
That is a terrible analogy, and it sounds like you have been reading atheist tripe about God being a cosmic rapist.

Besides the utterly non-physical means of impregnation, not only was bearing children a most desired thing (one example among others being that of the story of Hannah, and her response, 1 Samuel 1:12-18; 1 Samuel 2:1-10, which story much parallels that of Mary), but the reality is that being the mother of the messiah would be the longing of every devote Jewish women. These were not your college co-eds of today. And thus "let it be done..." would be a request, and that of faith, and that this was the case with Mary is evidenced by her wonderful magnificat:

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name... (Luke 1:46-49)

And which is what you should have considered rather then looking at a text in isolation from both culture and context and Mary's response. Scripture is meant to be studied out of love for the Truth.
How much did Mary know of the OT God? I'm not sure I know a lot about her regarding what education she would have had? Did she know enough to know how the OT women got treated? Look at Hagar. She was raped, repeatedly,
I am sure, as was typical of Jewish upbringing, that she was very familiar with the OT, and thus knew what you do not, that Hagar was not raped, nor repeatedly (where do you get this stuff!) but was taken as a wife as Sarah wished, "and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife" (Genesis 16:3) and which is what those who are called concubines themselves were, (Gn. 25:1; cf. 1Ch. 1:32; Gn. 30:4; cf. Gn. 35:22; 2Sam. 16:21, 22, cf. 2Sam. 20:3),

And as such it provided Hagar with a husband and children, which again was the normal longing of women, unlike today.
and later mistreated by the wife of the man who raped her. She ran away and what did God do? God said, "Go back to the place where you get hurt."
Again, just where do you get rape stuff from? Slate.com? It was actually faithless Sarah's idea for Abraham to have children by her, and there is not the slightest inference that her husband Abraham mistreated this secondary wife, and according to later Mosiac law to be neglectful in food, clothes and relations would have mandated her release. (Exodus 21:7-11) And which also made it unlawful to return an escaped slave anyway.

It was a women who mistreated Hagar, though Abraham essentially let her drive her away, perhaps reasoning that would be best. Which it was, for God, as the angel of the Lord, found her, and basically asked her to express why she fled, and then told her to go back to her jealous employer because it would be worth it.

And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. (Genesis 16:10-12)

Note that the blessing would only come by obedience. And while you may protest against it, suffering is actually required for character, as is taking orders, and requiring someone to stay in a place they do not like in order to obtain a promised blessing was a good thing. Thus, rather than your poor rape victim, Hagar became a blessed-cared for mother to far more descendants than most.
Where women do come up in the OT, it's no secret that they are generally either "vessels" or they meet unpleasant ends (or maybe both!) Would Mary have felt like she had any power to say "no" to a God who the OT credits with some pretty... strong... punishments?
As your premise is false so also is your conclusion. Both men and women are vessels in Scripture, and Iknow of no real disparity as to their type of ends, and as God did not create two-headed families He did make man the head, not in any way justifying abuse (and you will never find that sanctioned), but as the most accountable.
So what is there to take away from that passage that just seems to be Mary being taken advantage of/being reduced to a vessel. I get the whole theme of obedience and all but the annunciation bit itself really still eats at me
If you have an aversion to being a vessel no wonder you express this skewed take on Scripture. Godly people in Scripture as well as now want to be vessels, to be instruments for God, and you - with your hands, tongue, feet, etc. - will be one either for God or the devil.

Which does not make you mere chattel, or some clone, as instead you can be an instrument with your own God-given unique personal aspects, in expressing God's Truth and will. That is what Mary manifestly wanted, and worshipped God who "hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy." (Luke 1:54)

Why do you have this apparent aversion to being a servant and a vessel for God? It's still a volunteer mission.

About 150 years ago, two Christians wanted to reach slaves in the Caribbean (i think it was), but the owner would let no missionaries there. So these two men sold themselves into slavery for life, and as their ship departed, forever (on this world) leaving friends and family behind, they cried, "May the Lamb receive the reward for His sufferings." These men worked for a slave master in order to server a greater Master, who will abundantly reward their faith in recognition of what it effected (which the Lord both enabled and motivated). Thanks and glory to be God.
 
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redleghunter

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How much did Mary know of the OT God? I'm not sure I know a lot about her regarding what education she would have had? Did she know enough to know how the OT women got treated? Look at Hagar. She was raped, repeatedly, and later mistreated by the wife of the man who raped her. She ran away and what did God do? God said
First Hagar was not raped.

Mary was a faithful Jew who knew the Torah, Prophets and Writings. To be chosen was an honor.

The Magnificant is packed with allusions and quotes from the OT.

Luke 1: New King James Version (NKJV)

46 And Mary said:

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
54 He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever.”
 
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FireDragon76

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Yes, she consented. It's not always clear because we live in a different culture with sometimes very different assumptions about what consent and choice look like practically.
 
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mary was probably well versed in the bible and that is probably one reason why God would want her as a parent.

it's important that mary consented because if she did not then human freedom does not matter to God and if he annihilates our freedom then it means that only God exist and so only God would be to blame for sin.

why would mary not want to have a child from God if God asked her? she probably loved God very much. not to mention that if she were to have his child that would seem to me to mean that she and God are married. so all is well.

the problems in the bible that a modern person who is morally honest might see are due to humanities own freedom and Gods mysterious wisdom and how he interacts with the world. it's impossible to have a deep understanding of the bible and of God without God. this is one reason why God became a human in the first place. humans are a crude race but thanks to God we are getting better... when we are willing.

humans that are closed off from heaven can't hear what heaven says unless they are born from above. the bible is the tree of knowledge of good and evil until you are born from above and have your conversation in heaven. after a while the bible becomes the tree of life.
 
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Theophan

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So tell me, did Mary get a say in being impregnated? Because sometimes that part of the story just reads like get gets told that she'll be getting pregnant now, and, well, sure, she does say later on, "Okay, let it be so," that part of her response seems pretty inconsequential given the fact that she's already been told that it's going to happen regardless.

Believe me, I have a burning desire to want Mary to have agency. She did say, "Let it be according to your word." I want to let her yes be yes! What an empowering story that one would be, and what a deep and meaningful testament to the trust Mary had in God! Being pregnant was even more dangerous then than it is today. To top it off, being unwed and pregnant? And all that traveling. God didn't put her in an easy position, that's for sure. But she trusted God. And goodness knows the good book needs a woman or two with agency!

Her "Let it be according to your word," doesn't feel like consent. It feels like the child who pretends to be asleep when her dad comes into her room at night because she knows there's nothing she can do to stop what he is about to do anyway... and even if she wanted to try, how would she even begin to say "no" when they are on such unequal playing fields; she doesn't have the language yet to describe what he is doing.

How much did Mary know of the OT God? I'm not sure I know a lot about her regarding what education she would have had? Did she know enough to know how the OT women got treated? Look at Hagar. She was raped, repeatedly, and later mistreated by the wife of the man who raped her. She ran away and what did God do? God said, "Go back to the place where you get hurt." Where women do come up in the OT, it's no secret that they are generally either "vessels" or they meet unpleasant ends (or maybe both!) Would Mary have felt like she had any power to say "no" to a God who the OT credits with some pretty... strong... punishments?

So what is there to take away from that passage that just seems to be Mary being taken advantage of/being reduced to a vessel. I get the whole theme of obedience and all but the annunciation bit itself really still eats at me.

This logic is lacking insight.

The Lord said to Simon, "Thou shalt be called Cephas." and "Thou shalt deny me thrice before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows twice." What about, "You shall be holy, for I am holy"? Is God going around and abusing His power? Is He forcing His will upon us, and we pretty much have no say?

A prophesy does not equate to forcing someone's will to submit to God.

The archangel Gabriel prophesied, he spoke the words of God. He said, "Thou shalt bare a son, and His name shall be JESUS." And she said, "How shall these things be, seeing I know not a man?" After Gabriel explained it to her, then she said, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

What we see is Mary, who humbled herself before God and aligned her will with His. So, if St Paul calls himself a bondservant of Christ, a slave, is he being reduced to a vessel? Christ, in the garden of Gethsemene, says, "Nevertheless, not what I wilt but Thy will be done". What did Mary say? Be it unto me according to thy word. Do you see a similarity?

You have the impression that Mary was coerced into consenting. Where do you get this idea? The Archangel Gabriel only communicated to Mary what was already a future reality. God foresaw that she would will to become the mother of Christ.

Notice the difference in responses between Zacharias and Mary. The priest was terrified by the angel of the Lord. Mary, however, was only troubled by his words. What's more, before any of this, Gabriel called her blessed and highly favored and the Lord is with thee. So why is this important? Because she was obviously a woman who was seeking the Lord. The scriptures say, Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. We know that if an angel of the Lord says, "You are blessed and highly favored of God", this is an incredibly high honor to receive. Tell me, where in the scriptures does the Lord say that to anyone else?????? Why would He say that to a woman He had to coerce into consenting to bear the Son of God in her womb?

Why was she troubled at the Angel's greeting? Well, she was humble. No one in the OT was ever greeted by an angel of the Lord in this manner. Paul teaches us that Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. She, being wise beyond her years, perhaps was concerned that she perhaps was not being visited by a true angel of God. Nevertheless, if she had been coerced into accepting God's will, then the following verses would make no sense! Why would she say these things if she felt forced?

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.

53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Women were very empowered, not by the culture per se, but by God and their stories are recorded for us in Scripture. Before I get to that. Let's talk about Mary and let's back up the dialogue to when the angel first announces his presence.He says to her, 'Hail Full of Grace!' Luke 1:28. Now whether or not Mary was conceived without original sin, I'm not sure the Scriptures say, but Luke 1:28 does indicate that angel found her full of grace upon his arrival and this says to me that God didn't just pick any girl, but created Mary especially for this purpose, just as he creates each of us for our own special purpose and has a plan for our life. For the angel continues on, 'The Lord is with you!' So no creepy father here. Next we are told that Mary is troubled, but the angel reassures her, 'You have found favor (grace) with God (Luke 1:30 )'. I prefer 'grace' over 'favor' because it reminds us that this is the threshold of Grace's appearance into the world in a whole new salvific way. Continuing on... 'And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.' (Luke 1:31-33) But Mary has questions and speaks , 'How can this be, since I know not man?' (Luke 1:34) Then the angel replies, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible.' It is after all this, after her fears or confusion are righted, and her questions answered that Mary is then able to say full-heartedly, 'Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.' (Luke 1:34-38)

She would have known quite a lot actually. Her Magnificat bears that out. Even if she was a part of the lower classes and couldn't read, she would have heard the Scriptures read in the Synagogue and as a faithful Jewess would have committed them to memory.

Hagar wasn't raped. She was Abraham's wife. And it was Hagar who had initially mistreated Sarah by taunting her. Hagar got pregnant, Sarah was still barren and Hagar used this fact to her advantage. Sarah then mistreats Hagar. In my opinion, they were both at fault:

Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face. (Gen 16:1-6)

No. He did say to return, but with a blessing, not a curse:
And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? 14Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered (Gen 6:7-14)

Okay, let's do this in a Hebrews 11 fashion (They're in no particular order, just as they come to mind):

By Faith, Mothers and Wives insured that their households kept the Covenant with God.**** I really want to talk about this one...but this post is already so long and I need a break lol ;)
By Faith Jael with tent peg and hammer drove Israel's arch-enemy-Sisera's head into the ground.
By Faith Deborah judged Israel and was a channel of strength for men at war.
By Faith Judith took sword in hand and slit the throat of Holofernes, saving her city.
By Faith Ruth left her people, to join a people unknown, becoming a part of Christ's lineage.
By Faith Esther defied the order of the king and saved her entire nation from a holocaust.
(There are more, but I think that's good start for now)

If she had said no, would Christ have come? And what strong punishments come to your mind?
Just started reading here. This has always interested me and it seems that you and I agree.

I'd like to put this forth...
I do believe that God DID predestine some events and/or some persons to be an active part of His plan. (I'm not a determinist).

There are some persons in the scriptures who DO seem to fit into God's plan...for instance Pharaoh, Moses, Mary, Judas.

It's a known fact that God sees all time all at once. So we could say that He KNEW that Mary would accept -- but then why the commanding manner of Gabriel? Why was Mary such a good person all her life? It does seem that she was "groomed" for this big responsibility. Somehow, maybe in a way we won't understand, God did work her free will into this but in any case she DID have to say yes. (I also believe in free will).

If you don't understand the above, it's OK. I don't really understand it either!

P.S. Why a struggling Catholic?
It's a nice church and God requires no struggle and neither does that church.
 
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Mark_Sam

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It's a known fact that God sees all time all at once. So we could say that He KNEW that Mary would accept -- but then why the commanding manner of Gabriel? Why was Mary such a good person all her life? It does seem that she was "groomed" for this big responsibility. Somehow, maybe in a way we won't understand, God did work her free will into this but in any case she DID have to say yes. (I also believe in free will).
Now this is a interesting topic. Yes, we all agree that Mary consented to bearing Christ and becoming the mother of God. But what's the relationship between predestination and free will here? I think, in a sense, both are correct. Yes, she was predestined to become the mother of God. But since she was "the favoured one", or "endued with grace" or "full of grace" (Luke 1:28), she would use her own free will to do the will of God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Now this is a interesting topic. Yes, we all agree that Mary consented to bearing Christ and becoming the mother of God. But what's the relationship between predestination and free will here? I think, in a sense, both are correct. Yes, she was predestined to become the mother of God. But since she was "the favoured one", or "endued with grace" or "full of grace" (Luke 1:28), she would use her own free will to do the will of God.
It's the same problem we face with God's Sovereignty and our free will.

We know that God is sovereign and He can do whatever He wants to do. We also know for sure that God gave us free will because the bible is full of choices and also the actual word "free will" in some places.

So, how to reconcile. I heard this once which helped me a lot...

It's like a football or baseball game. Within the game every player gets to use his own free will as to what he will do.
But somehow, God will work it so that the outcome will be to His pleasure. The game being an analogy of life.

In the end, God will achieve His purpose for this thing we call life of man on earth. In the meantime, we use our free will both for everyday decisions, AND for choosing salvation.
 
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