LDS Did Joseph Smith and the 1830 BOM plagairize the 1823 book "View of the Hebrews"?

[Jane_Doe]

I will go back later tonight and see if I can find the link about the DNA studies on native americans. It was proven scientifically that they did not have any Hebrew DNA/genes.

As someone who is a professional scientist and does do work in genetics, I'll give you a couple of background facts:

--These studies are done on mitochondria DNA, which is passed via the female lines.
-- According to the Book of Mormon, there were precisely 2 Hebrew matriarchs which came over 600 BC
--It’s estimated that there were as many as 112 million Native Americans in 1492, plus all the ones which lived before that time.
-- According to the Book of Mormon, there were many people living here before the 2 matriarchs came over (they were a tiny drop in the ocean).
-- For these genetics studies, scientists typically take DNA from <100 people, living in the 2010’s AD.

The probability of randomly detecting DNA from 2 individuals whom lived >2500 years ago is absolutely dismal, just based on sheer odds. The odds only further decrease when you add all the mass deaths of entire native populations due to small pox, European killings, slavery, random genetic drift, etc.

All in all, I am totally unsurprised that DNA studies did not “prove” the Book of Mormon (aka find the single metaphorical needle in a million haystacks).

Also there’s also a really good official essay by the Church about this (https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng)

 

[ToBeLoved]

As someone who is a professional scientist and does do work in genetics, I'll give you a couple of background facts:

--These studies are done on mitochondria DNA, which is passed via the female lines.
-- According to the Book of Mormon, there were precisely 2 Hebrew matriarchs which came over 600 BC
--It’s estimated that there were as many as 112 million Native Americans in 1492, plus all the ones which lived before that time.
-- According to the Book of Mormon, there were many people living here before the 2 matriarchs came over (they were a tiny drop in the ocean).
-- For these genetics studies, scientists typically take DNA from <100 people, living in the 2010’s AD.

The probability of randomly detecting DNA from 2 individuals whom lived >2500 years ago is absolutely dismal, just based on sheer odds. The odds only further decrease when you add all the mass deaths of entire native populations due to small pox, European killings, slavery, random genetic drift, etc.

All in all, I am totally unsurprised that DNA studies did not “prove” the Book of Mormon (aka find the single metaphorical needle in a million haystacks).

Also there’s also a really good official essay by the Church about this (https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng)

Would you mind copy and pasting this in the new thread so others can see it.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Why do you think a Christian is going to read the Book of Mormon?

Because Christianity is not a religion of fear, but one which encourages loving people of all faiths.

I consider myself a Christian (despite what CF says) and have read/own many texts of other faiths including the Qu'ran, Daoist holy books, writings of Buddhists leaders, Catholic specific Bible books and writings, JW books. I have also attended services at many different faiths. Discussing faith with these people has greatly aided my understanding/love of them, seeing the Good they do have, and better able to share the Good I have with them.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Would you mind copy and pasting this in the new thread so others can see it.

Done.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because Christianity is not a religion of fear, but one which encourages loving people of all faiths.

I consider myself a Christian (despite what CF says) and have read/own many texts of other faiths including the Qu'ran, Daoist holy books, writings of Buddhists leaders, Catholic specific Bible books and writings, JW books. I have also attended services at many different faiths. Discussing faith with these people has greatly aided my understanding/love of them, seeing the Good they do have, and better able to share the Good I have with them.

That is fine. I think we can all read what we would like.

I however, choose not to fully read other religions books.

I will read the parts pertinent to discussion, but I do not have the desire to read them.

I'm glad you do though.

 

[withwonderingawe]

From a Nov 2013 article in the National Geographic

"Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

Oldest human genome reveals less of an East Asian ancestry than thought.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian people linked to the Middle East and Europe, rather than entirely from East Asians as previously thought, according to a newly sequenced genome.
Based on the arm bone of a 24,000-year-old Siberian youth, the research could uncover new origins for America's indigenous peoples, as well as stir up fresh debate on Native American identities, experts say.
The study authors believe the new study could also help resolve some long-standing puzzles on the peopling of the New World, which include genetic oddities and archaeological inconsistencies. (Explore an atlas of the human journey.)
"These results were a great surprise to us," said study co-author and ancient-DNA specialist Eske Willerslev, of the University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
"I hadn't expected anything like this. A genome related to present-day western Eurasian populations and modern Native Americans as well was really puzzling in the beginning. How could this happen?"......This study changes this idea because it shows that a significant minority of Native American ancestry actually derives not from East Asia but from a people related to present-day western Eurasians," Willerslev said.

"It's approximately one-third of the genome, and that is a lot," he added. "So in that regard I think it's changing quite a bit of the history."

While the land bridge still formed the gateway to America, the study now portrays Native Americans as a group derived from the meeting of two different populations, one ancestral to East Asians and the other related to western Eurasians, explained Willerslev, whose research was published in the November 20 edition of the journal Nature.


"The meeting of those two groups is what formed Native Americans as we know them." (Learn more about National Geographic's Genographic Project.)"

Now how does this apply to The Book of Mormon? The first group left sometime after the Tower so they were not Hebrew as in descendants of Abraham, we don't know which son of Noah's they came from. If the Bible is right (although the timeline isn't) Noah landed in Western Eurasian. So with Jared in the Book of Mormon we have some western Eurasians coming to the Americas, Lehi's little group would have just been adding back in more Western Eurasian genes into the mix that was already there.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...e-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/

 

[BigDaddy4]

I do not know why you do not just post the pertinent parts. Thinking that everyone has time to read pages and pages of information only to try to figure out what you are trying to say is very inefficient.

Please pull out the quotes off of this page and put the url under the quoted/copy and pasted text.

Yet he expects others to do the same, given his history. Some people call that hypocritical.

 

[Ironhold]

Why do you think a Christian is going to read the Book of Mormon?

Maybe because it's the honest thing to do?

After all, you guys expect us to wade through website after website full of slander and lies. It's only fair that you actually read the thing you're criticizing and take a few minutes to go for the supplements we post as well.

 

[Ironhold]

I do not know why you do not just post the pertinent parts. Thinking that everyone has time to read pages and pages of information only to try to figure out what you are trying to say is very inefficient.

Please pull out the quotes off of this page and put the url under the quoted/copy and pasted text.

Yet we somehow have the time to wade through website after website of anti-Mormon material?

 

[Ironhold]

What does that have to do with Mormons saying that the American Indians are of the Lost Tribes of Israel?

If the American Indians are (as Mormonism says) then they would have that DNA in their DNA profile. It's not a hard concept. DNA is very scientific and cut and dry.

American Indians do not have Hebrew/Israelite DNA

Go check the thread about genetics.

They do.

 

[stage five]

From a Nov 2013 article in the National Geographic

"Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

Oldest human genome reveals less of an East Asian ancestry than thought.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian people linked to the Middle East and Europe, rather than entirely from East Asians as previously thought, according to a newly sequenced genome.
Based on the arm bone of a 24,000-year-old Siberian youth, the research could uncover new origins for America's indigenous peoples, as well as stir up fresh debate on Native American identities, experts say.
The study authors believe the new study could also help resolve some long-standing puzzles on the peopling of the New World, which include genetic oddities and archaeological inconsistencies. (Explore an atlas of the human journey.)
"These results were a great surprise to us," said study co-author and ancient-DNA specialist Eske Willerslev, of the University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
"I hadn't expected anything like this. A genome related to present-day western Eurasian populations and modern Native Americans as well was really puzzling in the beginning. How could this happen?"......This study changes this idea because it shows that a significant minority of Native American ancestry actually derives not from East Asia but from a people related to present-day western Eurasians," Willerslev said.

"It's approximately one-third of the genome, and that is a lot," he added. "So in that regard I think it's changing quite a bit of the history."

While the land bridge still formed the gateway to America, the study now portrays Native Americans as a group derived from the meeting of two different populations, one ancestral to East Asians and the other related to western Eurasians, explained Willerslev, whose research was published in the November 20 edition of the journal Nature.


"The meeting of those two groups is what formed Native Americans as we know them." (Learn more about National Geographic's Genographic Project.)"

Now how does this apply to The Book of Mormon? The first group left sometime after the Tower so they were not Hebrew as in descendants of Abraham, we don't know which son of Noah's they came from. If the Bible is right (although the timeline isn't) Noah landed in Western Eurasian. So with Jared in the Book of Mormon we have some western Eurasians coming to the Americas, Lehi's little group would have just been adding back in more Western Eurasian genes into the mix that was already there.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...e-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/

I don't think you are reading the article. They collected DNA from someone in Siberia to find Indo-Europeans living in Siberia. What they found is that a population of Indo-Europeans also crossed the land bridge from Siberia to North America along with an Asian population tens of thousands of years ago. It was previously thought that only Mongoloid, non-Indo-European people crossed over.

This has nothing to do with people making ships of 15th Century technology in 600 and crossing over and somehow making up 1/3 of the genetic population of all of the Americans by 1500.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Go check the thread about genetics.

They do.

What thread is that? Your very vague

 

[withwonderingawe]

I don't think you are reading the article. They collected DNA from someone in Siberia to find Indo-Europeans living in Siberia. What they found is that a population of Indo-Europeans also crossed the land bridge from Siberia to North America along with an Asian population tens of thousands of years ago. It was previously thought that only Mongoloid, non-Indo-European people crossed over.

This has nothing to do with people making ships of 15th Century technology in 600 and crossing over and somehow making up 1/3 of the genetic population of all of the Americans by 1500.

The article says; DNA from the remains revealed genes found today in western Eurasians in the Middle East and Europe, as well as other aspects unique to Native Americans, but no evidence of any relation to modern East Asians.


The Jaradites in the Book of Mormon were just one group of many Western Eurasia/Middle East groups who came here, they arrived a little later than most at 6000 years ago. (I think perhaps longer ago than that because I think the flood and tower happened much longer ago than what the Bible says. I think it was a story which was passed down for many generations which got interwoven into the Bible.) People did get here by boat!

The Middle East would include the Semitic peoples who lived there. We do not know who Sarah's mother was or where she came from, her dna would be important to the mix. Lot's children, Abraham's third wife Keturah and Esau families dna would also add to the mix of Middle Eastern dna.

The tribes of Israel were a mixed group because the 12 sons married different women from other Middle Eastern groups, Joseph, who our second group descends from, married an Egyption. We don't know who else these people enter married with while in Egypt, they had no laws for bidding them at the time. Moses married an Ethiopian.

The Bible says the missing Ten Tribes fled northward which would be into Europe and Russia taking their dna with them and enter marrying with the peoples there, genetic researchers don't take that into account at all. These people lost their Israelite identity so we don't know who they were.

No one knows what Jewish/Levite dna looked like in 600 bc, when Lehi and family left Jerusalem. They have found that according to the mtdna in 70 bc when the Jews fled from the Romans they seemed to have left their women behind.

Jesus warned;
"And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." Luke 28

When these cowardly men got into Europe they intermarried with the indigenous women who live there because they can show Jewish mtdna closely matches them. So there really is no pure Israelite dna to look at. It really would have been a mix of Middle Eastern dna, the same as found in the Indian population here in the Americas.

All we are saying is that Lehi's dna got mixed into what was already here.

There is another point, in the Book of Mormon the white race those most Hebrew were hunted down and killed, their women and children were sacrificed, their mtdna disappeared. So no your not going to find any of it!

 

[stage five]

The article says; DNA from the remains revealed genes found today in western Eurasians in the Middle East and Europe, as well as other aspects unique to Native Americans, but no evidence of any relation to modern East Asians.

Yes...
the Middle-East and Europe refer to Caucasians, Indo-Europeans. They found a related group in Siberia that would have crossed the land bridge. The result is a population across the Americans with 1/3 the genes of a Caucasian ancestor, rather than being purely Mongoloid as previously thought.

This has nothing to do with stories from a man known for making things up, with magical golden plates only a few people saw and some of which recanted.. of God punishing scientific testing during the translation process (let's see if you can translate it again the same...) and silly tales of native americans sailing in ships that required technology that wouldn't be around for almost a thousand years landing in the Americas.

The Jaradites in the Book of Mormon were just one group of many Western Eurasia/Middle East groups who came here, they arrived a little later than most at 6000 years ago. (I think perhaps longer ago than that because I think the flood and tower happened much longer ago than what the Bible says. I think it was a story which was passed down for many generations which got interwoven into the Bible.) People did get here by boat!

The Middle East would include the Semitic peoples who lived there. We do not know who Sarah's mother was or where she came from, her dna would be important to the mix. Lot's children, Abraham's third wife Keturah and Esau families dna would also add to the mix of Middle Eastern dna.

The tribes of Israel were a mixed group because the 12 sons married different women from other Middle Eastern groups, Joseph, who our second group descends from, married an Egyption. We don't know who else these people enter married with while in Egypt, they had no laws for bidding them at the time. Moses married an Ethiopian.

The Bible says the missing Ten Tribes fled northward which would be into Europe and Russia taking their dna with them and enter marrying with the peoples there, genetic researchers don't take that into account at all. These people lost their Israelite identity so we don't know who they were.

No one knows what Jewish/Levite dna looked like in 600 bc, when Lehi and family left Jerusalem. They have found that according to the mtdna in 70 bc when the Jews fled from the Romans they seemed to have left their women behind.

Jesus warned;
"And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." Luke 28

When these cowardly men got into Europe they intermarried with the indigenous women who live there because they can show Jewish mtdna closely matches them. So there really is no pure Israelite dna to look at. It really would have been a mix of Middle Eastern dna, the same as found in the Indian population here in the Americas.

All we are saying is that Lehi's dna got mixed into what was already here.

There is another point, in the Book of Mormon the white race those most Hebrew were hunted down and killed, their women and children were sacrificed, their mtdna disappeared. So no your not going to find any of it!

The beautiful and delightsome white race?

Mormonism is absurd, not to mention sexist and racist, and I have no hostility to anyone that believes in it. It's important because of familial and community ties. It's hard to take seriously like neo-paganism and its polytheism is almost more absurd.

 

[Ironhold]

What thread is that? Your very vague

The one you started - http://www.christianforums.com/threads/are-american-indians-of-hebrew-descent.7937069/ .

 

[withwonderingawe]

Yes...
the Middle-East and Europe refer to Caucasians, Indo-Europeans. They found a related group in Siberia that would have crossed the land bridge. The result is a population across the Americans with 1/3 the genes of a Caucasian ancestor, rather than being purely Mongoloid as previously thought.

This has nothing to do with stories from a man known for making things up, with magical golden plates only a few people saw and some of which recanted.. of God punishing scientific testing during the translation process (let's see if you can translate it again the same...) and silly tales of native americans sailing in ships that required technology that wouldn't be around for almost a thousand years landing in the Americas.




The beautiful and delightsome white race?

Mormonism is absurd, not to mention sexist and racist, and I have no hostility to anyone that believes in it. It's important because of familial and community ties. It's hard to take seriously like neo-paganism and its polytheism is almost more absurd.

None of the eleven witnesses ever recanted seeing them.

Today I have a handheld seer stone, I can down load an app for about $10 which will translate any sentence written in a foreign langue for me in about half a second. It also has a map app, I just put in where I want to go and it shows me the way. If I want directions to build a boat it can give it to me with several different types boats to choose from. If Joseph Smith was a fraud then he was a man way ahead of his time, imagining technology 180 years before any scientist came up with them.

Man can do it but God can't ??? Your God must be pretty weak.

Monotheism developed out of the belief this world and the stars we see was the universe, we were the center of it. But science has move beyond that and we now know we are only one little blue dote in a vast universe filled with earths like this one, something Joseph Smith also knew. To image that God is alone is rather sad and kind of silly in-light of the knew knowledge we have.

 

[stage five]

None of the eleven witnesses ever recanted seeing them.

Today I have a handheld seer stone, I can down load an app for about $10 which will translate any sentence written in a foreign langue for me in about half a second.

No, it will attempt a translation, but translation is always art, not science.

It also has a map app, I just put in where I want to go and it shows me the way. If I want directions to build a boat it can give it to me with several different types boats to choose from. If Joseph Smith was a fraud then he was a man way ahead of his time, imagining technology 180 years before any scientist came up with them.

Man can do it but God can't ???

The recanting is a whole other topic.
It's not that God can't, God can do any absurd thing. However, if one were to test the accuracy of your phone, you'd be happy to prove it, rather than make up stories about God punishing your lack of faith.

Monotheism developed out of the belief this world and the stars we see was the universe, we were the center of it. But science has move beyond that and we now know we are only one little blue dote in a vast universe filled with earths like this one, something Joseph Smith also knew. To image that God is alone is rather sad and kind of silly in-light of the knew knowledge we have.

To believe in gods and that humans become gods is illogical and neo-pagan. What is God but all knowing and all powerful. Thus the existence of more than one God is not God as monotheism understands it, but gods of limitation. Gods of this and that, but never the God. They are just obvious fractions, divisions of something whole. That, is God. You cannot have two Gods, because two things cannot be which contradict themselves. The power and knowledge of one God limits that of the other and vice verse.

Mormonism's neo-paganism sets up silly councils of gods like the pagan tales of the past. Gods all sitting down to vote with human emotions and ambitions? Seriously?

The idea that God would be "alone" is also absurd. A true concept of God means He is not dependent or in need of anything. Everything God needs is within Himself and contents Himself.

 

[withwonderingawe]

No, it will attempt a translation, but translation is always art, not science.



The recanting is a whole other topic.
It's not that God can't, God can do any absurd thing. However, if one were to test the accuracy of your phone, you'd be happy to prove it, rather than make up stories about God punishing your lack of faith.



To believe in gods and that humans become gods is illogical and neo-pagan. What is God but all knowing and all powerful. Thus the existence of more than one God is not God as monotheism understands it, but gods of limitation. Gods of this and that, but never the God. They are just obvious fractions, divisions of something whole. That, is God. You cannot have two Gods, because two things cannot be which contradict themselves. The power and knowledge of one God limits that of the other and vice verse.

Mormonism's neo-paganism sets up silly councils of gods like the pagan tales of the past. Gods all sitting down to vote with human emotions and ambitions? Seriously?

The idea that God would be "alone" is also absurd. A true concept of God means He is not dependent or in need of anything. Everything God needs is within Himself and contents Himself.

I was always under the impression God does punish for lack of faith, doesn't he? He bless when we have faith in him.

Rev 21 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son"

All means all, all knowledge and all power. Knowledge does not fit into a box that can't be shared. Two men can share the same knowledge that 2+2=4 and not be jealous about it nor cause contention. God is perfect love, those that attain Godhood will be one with God but always in the position of son.

 

[Jane_Doe]

To believe in gods and that humans become gods is illogical and neo-pagan. What is God but all knowing and all powerful. Thus the existence of more than one God is not God as monotheism understands it, but gods of limitation. Gods of this and that, but never the God. They are just obvious fractions, divisions of something whole. That, is God. You cannot have two Gods, because two things cannot be which contradict themselves. The power and knowledge of one God limits that of the other and vice verse.

Mormonism's neo-paganism sets up silly councils of gods like the pagan tales of the past. Gods all sitting down to vote with human emotions and ambitions? Seriously?

The idea that God would be "alone" is also absurd. A true concept of God means He is not dependent or in need of anything. Everything God needs is within Himself and contents Himself.

Hello Stage Five, and welcome to this sub-forum.

This sub-forum has special rules, which include being respectful of other faiths and forbids calling them disrespectful terms like "silly". Here's a link to the rules: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ligions-statement-of-purpose-updated.7917311/. Please remember to be Christ-like in your dealings with fellow men.

Now, in regards to your post (the one and others), I can tell that you've been told many things which are not actual LDS beliefs, but a fun-house-mirror version of them. There's no shame in having encountered bad information: sometimes people innocently misunderstand things, and sometimes (unfortunately) people deliberately distribute distorted information to mock another person's beliefs. Would you be interested in learning what Mormons actually believe?

 

[stage five]

I was always under the impression God does punish for lack of faith, doesn't he? He bless when we have faith in him.

That would make God really petty. But, if you worship a God with limitations and human emotions and reasoning, then I guess you should fear such mythological gods.

All means all, all knowledge and all power. Knowledge does not fit into a box that can't be shared. Two men can share the same knowledge that 2+2=4 and not be jealous about it nor cause contention. God is perfect love, those that attain Godhood will be one with God but always in the position of son.

You cannot have two Gods being omnipotent.