Did Jesus Speak More about Hell than Heaven ?

[A_Thinker]

I had posted this previously, but I wanted to open up the audience a little ...

For more than 50 years, I have heard ministers state that Jesus spoke more of Hell than He did of Heaven. I heard it so consistently, and heard no contradiction of the statement, so I imagined that it must be true.

But after I read through the scriptures for the first time, ... the statement seemed less and less plausible, ... though I continued to hear it. I thought of all of the times Jesus described the kingdom of Heaven in a parable ... and couldn't hardly remember that He ever spoke of Hell as much.

So ... with the advent of electronic texts which could be searched for terms and topics, I did my own analysis. And I found that Jesus spoke of Hell on 60 or so occasions in the scriptures (including descriptive term such as of "outer darkness", "everlasting punishment", etc.), ... BUT, as one might expect, He spoke of Heaven (His home) more than three times as much.

On the one hand, I was relieved, because that accorded much better with my sense of scripture.

But, on the other hand, I wondered HOW it was that such a misinformation had been propagated down through the years ... seemingly without challenge ... or honest evaluation by Christian leaders ? Why are Christian leaders so consistent in their proclamation of this mis-truth, ... and why did it require my own lay efforts to uncover the truth ?

Did Jesus speak more about Hell than about Heaven?

 

[Rajni]

Whenever someone says that he spoke more about hell than about
heaven, I remind them that this is a myth.

Awhile back, I had plugged in the terms "heaven" and "hell" over at
BibleGateway.com to verify this for myself, and discovered that, for
example, in the New American Standard, Jesus mentions heaven 135
times and hell 11 times. In the King James Version, he mentions
heaven 141 times and hell 15 times.

Meanwhile, the New American Bible, a Catholic version, doesn't
mention hell at all.

This doesn't mean that hell can't be read into verses, but given that
people usually read things into scripture anyway, this alone doesn't
really settle the issue (as we can see clearly with every hell-related
thread that crops up ).

-

 

[Shempster]

If you read the Young's literal translation he never even mentions hell once.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There are basically two interconnected problems with the proposition (yes, I've heard it a lot as well):

1) Jesus never spoke of "heaven" and "hell" in a way that any of us would understand it in the modern age, because the modern views of "heaven" and "hell" didn't exist then, and are chiefly modern constructs.

2) Jesus speaks about the kingdom of God/Heaven (depending on which Gospel you are looking at), but does not talk about "heaven" in the way modern people do, as the place people go after death and/or spend eternity. Likewise Jesus never talks about "hell" the way modern people do; instead Jesus talks about Hades (She'ol, the common place of the dead) and Gehenna (the place of the wicked dead, in contrast to Paradise, the place of the righteous dead). Neither Hades nor Gehenna really correspond to the modern "hell".

The idea of "heaven" and "hell" as places of reward and punishment for this life is, in a sense, alien to the biblical narrative. There very much is a distinction between the fate of the righteous dead and the wicked dead, but the abode of the righteous dead or Paradise isn't "heaven", it's simply the abode of the righteous dead as a place of waiting for the resurrection and Judgment; and also the abode of the wicked dead or Gehenna which isn't "hell" (per se), but rather the place of waiting for the resurrection and judgment. This is the language Jesus uses, because this is the language of 1st century Judaism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jayem]

The modern, commonplace visions of heaven and hell owe more to Dante than to Jesus.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The modern, commonplace visions of heaven and hell owe more to Dante than to Jesus.

That's something, in a way, well renowned biblical scholar and retired Anglican bishop N.T. Write gets at in this short clip here:

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Bumble Bee]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has been moved from The Kitchen Sink to General Theology.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[zippy2006]

Whenever someone says that he spoke more about hell than about
heaven, I remind them that this is a myth.

Awhile back, I had plugged in the terms "heaven" and "hell" over at
BibleGateway.com to verify this for myself, and discovered that, for
example, in the New American Standard, Jesus mentions heaven 135
times and hell 11 times. In the King James Version, he mentions
heaven 141 times and hell 15 times.

This is a fallacious way to understand what Jesus said because you are relying on a flat-footed word search and an arbitrary translation. We can see this if we note that "Heaven" is a concept, not a mere word. One reason "Heaven" comes up so often in a word search is not because the concept of Heaven is being referred to, but rather because Jews, cognizant of the first commandment, often circumlocute words which are close to 'God' with 'Heaven.' A common example would be, "Kingdom of Heaven."

Thus if we look at the first 25 occurrences of "heaven" in the Gospel of Matthew in the NRSV we find that very few of them are referring to our concept of Heaven. Most of the authentic occurrences come in the Beatitudes, and it would be more accurate to call this a single occurrence of Jesus talking about Heaven rather than three distinct occurrences.

So your word search didn't do much at all to convince me. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus speaks about Hell more than he speaks about Heaven (in the sticks-versus-carrots sense). Even if he doesn't, he still speaks a whole lot about Hell. It's not something one can just sweep under the rug, especially in our age of rose-eyed optimism.

 

[A_Thinker]

This is a fallacious way to understand what Jesus said because you are relying on a flat-footed word search and an arbitrary translation. We can see this if we note that "Heaven" is a concept, not a mere word. One reason "Heaven" comes up so often in a word search is not because the concept of Heaven is being referred to, but rather because Jews, cognizant of the first commandment, often circumlocute words which are close to 'God' with 'Heaven.' A common example would be, "Kingdom of Heaven."

Thus if we look at the first 25 occurrences of "heaven" in the Gospel of Matthew in the NRSV we find that very few of them are referring to our concept of Heaven. Most of the authentic occurrences come in the Beatitudes, and it would be more accurate to call this a single occurrence of Jesus talking about Heaven rather than three distinct occurrences.

So your word search didn't do much at all to convince me. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus speaks about Hell more than he speaks about Heaven (in the sticks-versus-carrots sense). Even if he doesn't, he still speaks a whole lot about Hell. It's not something one can just sweep under the rug, especially in our age of rose-eyed optimism.

The "Kingdom of Heaven" is heaven (i.e. God's area of control/influence).

Have you not considered Jesus' response to the Pharisees in Luke 17:20-21 ...

20 One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will the Kingdom of God come?”

Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God can’t be detected by visible signs.

21 You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is already among you.”

Heaven is not, essentially, a place. Heaven is the ultimate plan, purpose, and execution of God's will.

So, of course Jesus would speak more on heaven (i.e. God's side of things) ... than any other.

Why would he focus MORE on the other side of things, ... though, admittedly, He does mention it ...

 

[zippy2006]

The "Kingdom of Heaven" is heaven (i.e. God's area of control/influence).

If you are going to redefine heaven as "God's area of influence" then we are no longer talking about the concept we know as Heaven, and in that case it is untrue to claim that we are talking about the thing which is opposite to Hell. ViaCrucis is partially right that this discussion is anachronistic, but if we really want to try to have the discussion we can't just redefine words nilly willy.

When the pastor says that Jesus speaks more about Hell than Heaven, he is saying that he warns more via the possibility of eternal punishment than he entices via the possibility of eternal blessedness. To try to critique such pastors while redefining their terms is to engage in the fallacy of equivocation.

 

[A_Thinker]

If you are going to redefine heaven as "God's area of influence" then we are no longer talking about the concept we know as Heaven, and in that case it is untrue to claim that we are talking about the thing which is opposite to Hell. ViaCrucis is partially right that this discussion is anachronistic, but if we really want to try to have the discussion we can't just redefine words nilly willy.

When the pastor says that Jesus speaks more about Hell than Heaven, he is saying that he warns more via the possibility of eternal punishment than he entices via the possibility of eternal blessedness. To try to critique such pastors while redefining their terms is to engage in the fallacy of equivocation.

I can agree with the characterization here, ... but even so, ... Jesus spoke more of the blessings of His offerings to those who would come alongside ... than He did of the consequences of rejecting that offer.

 

[zippy2006]

I can agree with the characterization here, ... but even so, ... Jesus spoke more of the blessings of His offerings to those who would come alongside ... than He did of the consequences of rejecting that offer.

But do you have any evidence for such a claim?

I took a random chapter which I have not memorized (Mark 7). Here is what happens:

1. Jesus criticizes the Pharisees very harshly
2. Jesus teaches the people about the evil things which truly defile
3. Jesus heals the Syrophoenician woman's daughter after she "begs for scraps"
4. Jesus cures a deaf man

So in this chapter there is no sustained reference to Heaven or Hell, and there is a lot of criticism and warning which occurs in the first half.

 

[Halbhh]

I had posted this previously, but I wanted to open up the audience a little ...

For more than 50 years, I have heard ministers state that Jesus spoke more of Hell than He did of Heaven. I heard it so consistently, and heard no contradiction of the statement, so I imagined that it must be true.

But after I read through the scriptures for the first time, ... the statement seemed less and less plausible, ... though I continued to hear it. I thought of all of the times Jesus described the kingdom of Heaven in a parable ... and couldn't hardly remember that He ever spoke of Hell as much.

So ... with the advent of electronic texts which could be searched for terms and topics, I did my own analysis. And I found that Jesus spoke of Hell on 60 or so occasions in the scriptures (including descriptive term such as of "outer darkness", "everlasting punishment", etc.), ... BUT, as one might expect, He spoke of Heaven (His home) more than three times as much.

On the one hand, I was relieved, because that accorded much better with my sense of scripture.

But, on the other hand, I wondered HOW it was that such a misinformation had been propagated down through the years ... seemingly without challenge ... or honest evaluation by Christian leaders ? Why are Christian leaders so consistent in their proclamation of this mis-truth, ... and why did it require my own lay efforts to uncover the truth ?

Did Jesus speak more about Hell than about Heaven?

We are to have both the Kingdom we begin living here and now in this life, and something even more wonderful, the eternal life to come. And Christ does indeed warn us more than a few times about that coming judgement after this temporary short mortal life is over, and how we face 2 ultimate outcomes we are choosing here between. In terms of this current mortal life though, the choice is essentially the choice of whether we prefer/most treasure what is Good, which is God's Way (even though we cannot get there just on our own effort alone), or instead prefer/most treasure our evils we've long known.

Which do we most treasure?

Here we are choosing what we most value/most love. And then after this life, that choice becomes everlasting.

 

[Hawkins]

More often, the visual/superficial audiences back then were the Jews who upheld a firm Pharisaic concept about heaven and hell. That's why we have the impression that hell is often mentioned. In contrary, when Paul the Apostle tried to preach the gospel to gentiles, he seldom mentioned hell even though he himself is a famous Pharisee.

From another perspective, what the Jews treasured was Law, while in NT the focus is God's Grace through Jesus Christ.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I think Christ spoke more often of Hell than any other New Testament writer, which may have been what the old time preachers were referring to.

Obviously He spoke of Heaven far more often than He did of Hell, but He made it clear that Hell existed, as in for example in Luke 12:5 -

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

I'm grandstanding a bit, but I claim the night my father died he appeared in my room. We talked and argued, and at the very end it was obvious something was coming for him. He was screaming his head off and then just disappeared. Personally I think he went to Hell.

Some years after my old pastor died, he appeared in a brief vision and warned me "Watch out for (certain lady). Your father's paying for it, believe me! You don't want to join him!" Then he repeated "Watch out for (certain lady)!" So I've got another reason for believing what I think.

In this regard I'd point to God's power. We'd all be familiar with Einstein's equation E=mc^2.

It was only recently I became aware the actual amount of mass converted into energy in the Hiroshima atomic bomb explosion was about 1.09 kg. That's about the mass of a 1 litre milk bottle.

In a flash, a changed world

Seventy-five years after, humanity is still coming to grips with the results of the atomic bomb dropped in Hiroshima.

www.reuters.com

Since God is the one who encapsulated all energy into the matter that we can see in this universe, then His power is not to be trifled with.

​

 

[A_Thinker]

"But do you have any evidence for such a claim?

I took a random chapter which I have not memorized (Mark 7). Here is what happens:

1. Jesus criticizes the Pharisees very harshly
2. Jesus teaches the people about the evil things which truly defile
3. Jesus heals the Syrophoenician woman's daughter after she "begs for scraps"
4. Jesus cures a deaf man

So in this chapter there is no sustained reference to Heaven or Hell, and there is a lot of criticism and warning which occurs in the first half."

Something to consider is that Jesus basically ONLY criticizes the Pharisees and those who oppress others in this world. His general word to the average man or woman ... was one of encouragement and invitation ... see Matthew 5, Matthew 11:28-30, Luke 23:42-43, ...

 

[BobRyan]

I had posted this previously, but I wanted to open up the audience a little ...

For more than 50 years, I have heard ministers state that Jesus spoke more of Hell than He did of Heaven. I heard it so consistently, and heard no contradiction of the statement, so I imagined that it must be true.

But after I read through the scriptures for the first time, ... the statement seemed less and less plausible, ... though I continued to hear it. I thought of all of the times Jesus described the kingdom of Heaven in a parable ... and couldn't hardly remember that He ever spoke of Hell as much.

So ... with the advent of electronic texts which could be searched for terms and topics, I did my own analysis. And I found that Jesus spoke of Hell on 60 or so occasions in the scriptures (including descriptive term such as of "outer darkness", "everlasting punishment", etc.), ... BUT, as one might expect, He spoke of Heaven (His home) more than three times as much.

On the one hand, I was relieved, because that accorded much better with my sense of scripture.

But, on the other hand, I wondered HOW it was that such a misinformation had been propagated down through the years ... seemingly without challenge ... or honest evaluation by Christian leaders ? Why are Christian leaders so consistent in their proclamation of this mis-truth, ... and why did it require my own lay efforts to uncover the truth ?

Did Jesus speak more about Hell than about Heaven?

Maybe something is being left out...

Did they actually say "In the Sermon on the Mount - Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about heaven"??

 

[A_Thinker]

Maybe something is being left out...

Did they actually say "In the Sermon on the Mount - Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about heaven"??

No ... it was the general statement I cited. I'm sure I have heard/read the statement a dozen times, and never with any qualifications.

I've heard another occurrence within the last month ..