Did Jesus Sin?

[franklin]

Originally posted by Warrior4Jah
Have you read the bible? Everyone sins and thats the wya it is, which is why WE NEED CHRIST! To save us from our sins! Because to be without sin is to be perfect, and to be perfect in every way is to be God. Because only Jesus, only God, is perfect. We all sin every day.

warrior, have you read yours?  "Therefore  you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mt 5:48) [Lev 19:2; Deut 18:13; 2 Cor 7:1; Phil 3:12-15]

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. (Jn5:14)


See my previous post:http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=280777#post280777

also drmmjr post # 39 makes an excellent, excellent statement about following Christ's example on how we are to live according to God's will.

 

[LouisBooth]

Yes, we are to strive to be perfect, but it cannot be done. Its like telling your kids, you can be anything you want to. This is simply not true. They can't be superman, or batman. They can't be a 15 armed man, or other things. The Mat 5:48 verse must be put into context. He is addressing what nonchristians do and this statement is to say, hey, you have to do better then that. It is not a literal commandment, for Christ knows we can never be perfect apart from him. As far as the OP, christ was sinless.

It says so in the bible, read it for yourself in 2nd cor.

5:21 "God made him who had no sin..." He is refering to Christ in this case. So we can very eaisly conclude Christ was sinless.

 

[Blackhawk]

Jesus never sinned. WE have all sinned and fallen short of God's glory and we will always until we are fully sanctified. Unfortunately this will not occur until we reach heaven. God will complete the good work in us and we can stop sinning while here on earth but we will not. It is one of those impossible possibilities.

Think about this: Is it possible for the Houston Texans to go throught their first year winning all their games with no yards being produced against them and for them to score on every offensive play from scrimmage? That is possible. Will it happen? No. Will any team ever do that? no. And that is not 1% as hard as stopping sin in our lives.

So yes we are no longer slaves to sin but we will sin until Jesus returns because we are human.

blackhawk

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Do we as Christians still sin? Yes, because our flesh is imperfect and corrupt.

Has Christ made it possible for us not to sin? Surely! He would not tell us to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect without giving us a way to be perfect. Our flesh is indeed corrupt, but it is just the shell we live in. The sin nature is dead for a Christian. It is no more - our old selves have been crucified with Christ! In its place is a new nature, a new spirit - the one and only Holy Spirit - the 3rd member of the Trinity! If we were to heed the calling of the Spirit 24 hours a day, and always choose to walk in the Spirit, rather than listening to Satan's lies and choosing to walk in the flesh, we would not sin. We are new creations, after all. We already have the victory over the power of sin, and we are indeed no longer slaves to sin.

Do I live a life in which I never sin? Hardly! Does anyone? No. But that doesn't negate the fact that Christ has given us the power and grace by which to do it.

Someone here said that everyone sins every day. That is a popular thought, but I'm not sure it's true. I think most people sin by commission or ommission every day, but I think there are some people out there who probably do not sin on a daily basis.

 

[suzie]

Jesus was born without the sin that entered the world through Adam. He was born holy. Jesus is both God and human. God took on the limitations of humanity so he could live and die for the salvation of all who would believe in him. Jesus means "our Lord saves"-the prophet Isaiah announced Jesus as Immanuel (God with us). We will be glorified and made completely perfect when Christ returns to take us into his eternal kingdom (Phil 3:20-21)

 

[franklin]

  Originally posted by suzie
Jesus was born without the sin that entered the world through Adam. He was born holy. Jesus is both God and human. God took on the limitations of humanity so he could live and die for the salvation of all who would believe in him. Jesus means "our Lord saves"-the prophet Isaiah announced Jesus as Immanuel (God with us). We will be glorified and made completely perfect when Christ returns to take us into his eternal kingdom (Phil 3:20-21)

Hi susie, So your saying that Jesus wasn't born with original sin?  I agree, however, doest that imply that we were born with original sin?  Does that mean that a new born baby is already under God's wrath?  I posted this in another thread: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=251427#post251427

This is another post that might explain how Christ lived His life in total submission to God His father:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=280777#post280777

 

[suzie]

Sin is an inherent part of who we are. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. In Psalm 51:5 it states "I was born a sinner-yes, from the moment my mother conceived me" Again in Psalm 58:3--their corrupt ways are not sporadic, they act in accordance with their nature. Genesis 8:21 it speaks again of the heart condition. Ephesians 2:3 shows us the fact that all people without exception commit sin proving that without Christ we have a sinful nature. We are lost in sin and cannot save ourselves. Sinning comes to us naturally. Scripture tells us "The human heart is most desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?" (Jeremiah 17:9) Again scriptures tell us "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) All people are sinners and are under God's judgement. Jesus is divine (Col 1:15-23) Jesus is God who took on flesh. Jesus is one nature with God and cannot do anything apart from God. Jesus although tempted as human, could and did not sin.

 

[Warrior4Jah]

Nice suzie, I think right there she pretty much put that one to rest Way to go, and you actually provided scripture to back yourself up.

 

[franklin]

   Originally posted by suzie
Sin is an inherent part of who we are. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. In Psalm 51:5 it states "I was born a sinner-yes, from the moment my mother conceived me" Again in Psalm 58:3--their corrupt ways are not sporadic, they act in accordance with their nature. Genesis 8:21 it speaks again of the heart condition. Ephesians 2:3 shows us the fact that all people without exception commit sin proving that without Christ we have a sinful nature. We are lost in sin and cannot save ourselves. Sinning comes to us naturally. Scripture tells us "The human heart is most desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?" (Jeremiah 17:9) Again scriptures tell us "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) All people are sinners and are under God's judgement.

suzie, I think you need to distinguish when the scriptures are being used figuratively and literally!  Most of David's Psalms are written in figurative, symbolic language.  Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." The language of this text is not literal, it is figurative. Both context and reality demand a figurative interpretation of this text. For example, let's compare Psalm 51:5 with Job 1:21. If Psalm 51:5 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that David and all other men are born sinners, then Job 1:21 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb. Neither Psalm 51:5 nor Job 1:21 is to be understood literally. They are both figurative expressions. Both context and our knowledge of reality demand a figurative interpretation of these two texts.  David's Psalms, Psalm 58:3, can be made to teach the astonishing doctrine that babies speak from the very moment they are born. It is a physical impossibility to be born a sinner because of the nature of sin. Sin is not a substance. It has no physical properties and cannot possibly be passed on physically from one person to another. What is sin? The Scripture says, "Sin is the transgression of the law." (1John 3:4).

 

 Jesus is divine (Col 1:15-23) Jesus is God who took on flesh. Jesus is one nature with God and cannot do anything apart from God. Jesus although tempted as human, could and did not sin. [/B]

These scriptures (Col 1:15-23) that you are referring to are dedicated to revealing Jesus identity to us. There is no mention that Jesus belongs to a trinity or that he is one part of a singular god. If you want to believe in who Jesus really is then believe these scriptures, and know that they were inspired by God himself. Trust in the scriptures and not the cleverly devised doctrines of man.

 

[LouisBooth]

"when the scriptures are being used figuratively and literally! Most of David's Psalms are written in figurative, symbolic language"

So you're saying his mother didn't really concieve him? stork? Seems like a pretty literal passage to me so far..


"There is no mention that Jesus belongs to a trinity or that he is one part of a singular god. "

That's exactly what that passage is devoted to....to showing Christ is God and trinity is true.

 

[franklin]

   Originally posted by LouisBooth
[B]"when the scriptures are being used figuratively and literally! Most of David's Psalms are written in figurative, symbolic language"
So you're saying his mother didn't really concieve him? stork? Seems like a pretty literal passage to me so far.. [/B]

Your not very funny booth!  Did anybody ever tell you that?  Especially when it comes to trivializing God's word like you do!  David was not teaching in this passage that he was born a sinner. He instead was confessing to God the awful guilt and sinfulness of his heart, and he cried out to God in strong language the language of figure and symbol to express that awful guilt and sinfulness. Try reading it yourself the next time you need to ask God for forgiveness! Maybe you'll get the sence and the feeling of what David was going through. 

  
"There is no mention that Jesus belongs to a trinity or that he is one part of a singular god. "

That's exactly what that passage is devoted to....to showing Christ is God and trinity is true. [/B]

Not sure what scripture your referring to booth, but I think it's Col 1:15 - 18 etc ....  Once again booth your missing the whole point by constantly defending your precious little trinity doctrine that is totally unsupported by the scriptures.....  The man Christ Jesus was born in Bethlehem as plainly and clearly recorded in Scripture. The Spirit-Word manifested in and through him was eternally with, and of, God. God, not the three-in-one God, but the one true God of the scripture, by the Spirit, manifested Himself in, and spoke and worked through, His Son, the man Christ Jesus. Jesus is the "beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14). Note particularly that he is part of the "creation of God," and he is clearly not part of the eternal, uncreated One God. Does this mean that he was the first thing actually created, or does it mean that he is the foundation stone of the final, perfected result? The former alternative is out of harmony with the plain record of his birth - the latter is the very heart of the revelation and purpose.

Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

Does this mean that he was the very first creature ever born? The answer is in verse 18:

Colossians 1:18, "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

 

[suzie]

In Psalm 51 we know david was confessing and repenting of his adultery with Bathsheba after being confronted by Nathan. In v5, David is essentially stating that his sin isnt a rare occurance that happened in his life, but instead it came from what he is and has been in his "inner parts"(v6) from birth. Though Adam was created sinless, sin entered the world through him-and death through sin. (Romans 5:12-21) We have all inherited Adam's guilt, a sinful nature -- the tendancy to sin. In Job 1:21 Job was acknowledging God's sovereign authority over all that God had given to him. For we bring nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it -such as in 1 Tim 6:7. The verse in Job is essentially repeated in Ecclesiates 5:15: "Naked a man comes from his mother's womb, and as he comes, so he departs.." I believe I was viewing Psalm 51 in correct context.
Now the part about the divinity of Christ. I believe that Col 1:15-23 shows us clearly the divine nature of Jesus. Jesus is equal to God (Phil 2:6); and is God (John 10:30)-the image of the invisible God.. If we do not believe in the deity of Christ, our faith is meaningless. This is a central truth of Christianity...otherwise Jesus is simply a prophet or good teacher.

 

[Warrior4Jah]

Ahem, the Trinty is very real. 1 John 5
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


Ahem again, I agree that that passage seems very literal.

Also, you quoted John 5: 14 earlier, but you were wrong. Read the whole store behind it.

John 5
1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day


Jesus told the man to take up his bed and carry it, which he did, obeying and realizing Him as the Son. Therefore, because he had obeyed Jesus despite what the others said, Jesus came to Him later and rid him of the sin which he had commited by working on the sabbath day. "lest a worse thing come unto thee." until he should sin again.

 

[franklin]

  Originally posted by Blackhawk
Jesus never sinned. WE have all sinned and fallen short of God's glory and we will always until we are fully sanctified. Unfortunately this will not occur until we reach heaven. God will complete the good work in us and we can stop sinning while here on earth but we will not. It is one of those impossible possibilities.

Blackhawk, this type of thinking and belief that you and the majority of believers have come to believe has originated from the doctrine of original sin which breeds other false doctrines as well.  I can give you a list but I will only cover this briefly.... it breeds the doctrine of inability to obey God and His commandments to sin no more for one.  The doctrine of a natural inability to obey God is at the very heart of the doctrine of original sin. According to the advocates of original sin, all men, even those who are Christians, have a corrupt, depraved, sinful nature and are unable to obey God as long as they are in this life. This doctrine opens the floodgates of rebellion against God, for it implies impunity for sin. Surely God would not be so unreasonable as to judge us for sin when he knows that we are by nature unable to obey him. You contradict yourself in just one sentence when you say we can stop sinning while here on earth but then you say we will not? Will not stop sinning?  Is that what you are saying?  That doesn't make any sence BH!  It sounds like you can't make up you mind to obey God's commandments and stop sinning or you don't know if you have the ability to stop or not!  The Scripture's teach that the Christian has been freed from his sins by the grace of Christ, and that he now has the power to live a victorious sin-free life (Romans 6:6,14,17,18,22, John 8:34,36). If I follow your thinking BH, that would make God and Christ a lier!  The doctrine of the inability to obey God totally contradicts scripture!

 
So yes we are no longer slaves to sin but we will sin until Jesus returns because we are human.  [/B]

We will sin until Jesus returns??????     What kind of sence does this make BH???  This is not only totally un-scriptural, it is void of all common sence and logic whatsoever!!!!  If this is what you believe then you might as well pray this prayer..... "Lord, thou hast promised that sin shall not have dominion over me; thou hast promised that he whom the Son sets free is free indeed; and Lord, thou hast given many other promises, assuring me of thy grace and power to keep me from sin but Lord, I don't believe thy promises; Lord, I don't think thou art able to keep me from sin in this life because I have been taught by men that I still have the remaining corruptions of original sin in me and will not be able to obey thee perfectly until I die and go to heaven."  I seriously doubt if you would pray this prayer BH, but this is the unbelieving spirit that rules your life if you excuse sin by claiming a natural inability to obey God.  Get your beliefs from the scriptures and not from the imaginations, speculations and interpretations of men that invent every wind of false doctrine that has no place in the word of God.  May peace and the love of Christ be with you.

FR  

 

[LouisBooth]

"David was not teaching in this passage that he was born a sinner. He instead was confessing to God the awful guilt and sinfulness of his heart, "

No, its seems he was very plainly saying he was born a sinner.

"Once again booth your missing the whole point by constantly defending your precious little trinity doctrine that is totally unsupported by the scriptures..... "

and once again you don't know what you're talking about The trinity docterine is fully backed by scripture. Go read the other thread that have addressed this.


"Note particularly that he is part of the "creation of God," "

No, he was not created. The problem with you reading scripture is that you dont' know what the concept of first born ment to the jewish culture. This is also the problem with you understanding the title "son of man or "son of God". It implies authority.


"Colossians 1:18, "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.""

Actaully this verse it on a WHOLE different subject. If you read the verses in between you would have seen that.

"For by him all things were created..." nso Jesus is the creator...and "For by him all things hold together." This seems to be quite clearly stateing Jesus is God..why can't you see that??

"According to the advocates of original sin, all men, even those who are Christians, have a corrupt, depraved, sinful nature and are unable to obey God as long as they are in this life. "

This is an untrue statement. God destroyes it.


"Surely God would not be so unreasonable as to judge us for sin when he knows that we are by nature unable to obey him. "

Wrong again. This is a mute point though. Have you sinned? If yes, this really doesn't matter.


"has the power to live a victorious sin-free life "

no no, you misunderstand, we are freed from sin, but that doesn't mean we don't sin. Sin no longer has the effect on us it had before, that is death. We now have Christ's rightousness, so sin cannot live in us, as it did not live in Christ.

 

[franklin]

    Originally posted by LouisBooth
"David was not teaching in this passage that he was born a sinner. He instead was confessing to God the awful guilt and sinfulness of his heart".....
No, its seems he was very plainly saying he was born a sinner.

Booth, I'll say one thing for you, at least you stick to the subject!      Once again thanks for reprimanding that other fellow in the other thread that I posted..... As for David, he was not saying he was a born sinner because he himself knew full well he was responsible for his own sinful actions and in his Ps 51 he was pouring out his repentent heart to God seeking His forgiveness.  If he was saying he was a born sinner he would be putting the blame on his creator and I think you would agree that there isn't even the slightest hint of David blaming God for his sins. It wouldn't make any sence for David to cry out to God if he knew God ceated him a born sinner.  Common sence and logic should tell you that when you read his prayer.  Think about it and ponder Ps51 for a while.....

and once again you don't know what you're talking about The trinity docterine is fully backed by scripture. Go read the other thread that have addressed this. [/B]

Well booth, At least I'll admit the trinity is not fully or even partially supported by scripture, not even Jesus or the Apostles taught it!  If you can show where our Lord taught it, then show me the scriptures. 

Booth, I'm going to have put the brakes on here and call it quits for the evening since it is so late in the evening and I am having a hard time keeping my eyes open..... and I would like to continue with the rest of your quotes possibly tomorrow, so hang in there pilgrim....

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by franklin


Blackhawk, this type of thinking and belief that you and the majority of believers have come to believe has originated from the doctrine of original sin which breeds other false doctrines as well.

 

The doctrine of Original Sin seems to me to be supported in scripture.  Look at this passage in Romans. 


Rom 5:12-19
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
(NAU)

How can sin enter the world through one man and one act of disobedience and that one act condem all and make all sinnersif there is no original sin?

 

I can give you a list but I will only cover this briefly.... it breeds the doctrine of inability to obey God and His commandments to sin no more for one.  The doctrine of a natural inability to obey God is at the very heart of the doctrine of original sin. According to the advocates of original sin, all men, even those who are Christians, have a corrupt, depraved, sinful nature and are unable to obey God as long as they are in this life. This doctrine opens the floodgates of rebellion against God, for it implies impunity for sin. Surely God would not be so unreasonable as to judge us for sin when he knows that we are by nature unable to obey him.. [/B]

 

Again I think the Bible is clear that naturally we do not have the ability to obey God. 


Rom 3:9-18
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
(NAU)

In fact Jesus said that He came not for the righteouss but for the sinners.


Luke 5:30-32
30 The Pharisees and their scribes {began} grumbling at His disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?"
31 And Jesus answered and said to them, "{It is} not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.
32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
(NAU)

In James ones that are in the church are told to


James 5:16
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
(NAU)

Why confess your sins to one another if you will not sin. 

Now this passage starts by saying that we can overcome sin. Which I believe that we do not have to sin any longer.  However notice that in verse 19 it says that our "flesh is weak." 


Rom 6:17-19
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in {further} lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
(NAU)

Jesus knew this also.


Matt 26:41
41 "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
(NAU)

So as long as we are in this world we will sin.  Because we are weak. 

 

You contradict yourself in just one sentence when you say we can stop sinning while here on earth but then you say we will not? Will not stop sinning?  Is that what you are saying?  That doesn't make any sence BH!  It sounds like you can't make up you mind to obey God's commandments and stop sinning or you don't know if you have the ability to stop or not!  The Scripture's teach that the Christian has been freed from his sins by the grace of Christ, and that he now has the power to live a victorious sin-free life (Romans 6:6,14,17,18,22, John 8:34,36). If I follow your thinking BH, that would make God and Christ a lier!  The doctrine of the inability to obey God totally contradicts scripture!
[/B]

 

now yes we do not have to sin.  I have "been freed from (my) sins by the grace of Christ" and I do have the power not to sin.   I can overcome sin.  Where the nonsaved man always sins now I am no longer a slave to sin and can not sin.  I can say no I am going to obey Christ.  But I will continue to not choose to rid myself of all my sin until Jesus retrns and I am fully sanctified. 

Here is an analogy.  I am in school.  I can make perfect marks on all my papers this year.  I mean I can write perfect papers.  However I will not.  I will make a mistake.  i do not have to make a mistake but it will occur.  Now my goal is to have perfect papers but I know it will not occur. 

We will sin until Jesus returns??????     What kind of sence does this make BH???  This is not only totally un-scriptural, it is void of all common sence and logic whatsoever!!!!  If this is what you believe then you might as well pray this prayer..... "Lord, thou hast promised that sin shall not have dominion over me; thou hast promised that he whom the Son sets free is free indeed; and Lord, thou hast given many other promises, assuring me of thy grace and power to keep me from sin but Lord, I don't believe thy promises; Lord, I don't think thou art able to keep me from sin in this life because I have been taught by men that I still have the remaining corruptions of original sin in me and will not be able to obey thee perfectly until I die and go to heaven."  I seriously doubt if you would pray this prayer BH, but this is the unbelieving spirit that rules your life if you excuse sin by claiming a natural inability to obey God. [/B]

 

Who said I ever excused my sin??!!? I certaintly do not.  I never said that in the slightest.  But I will continue to sin until Jesus returns.  It is not something I am proud about but I like Paul do not boast about myself.  I boast about my God.  I believe that possibly you do not understand the depths of sin in the life of us all.  Paul certainly did.  He thought he was the worst of sinners. 


Rom 7:22-25
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
(NAU)


Gal 5:17
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
(NAU)

 The more I continue to grow in the grace of God the more I see that His grace is truly great because of how undeserving I am. 

  Get your beliefs from the scriptures and not from the imaginations, speculations and interpretations of men that invent every wind of false doctrine that has no place in the word of God.  May peace and the love of Christ be with you.

FR   [/B]

I think I have showed that my beliefs come from scripture and are not just interpretations of men.  If you want more scriptures I can sure get more if you like. 

blackhawk

 

[franklin]

  Originally posted by Blackhawk
  The doctrine of Original Sin seems to me to be supported in scripture.  Look at this passage in Romans. 

Hi BH, thanks for posting.... OS "seems" to be supported by scripture, however, it is not!  I used to believe the same thing as you do about this doctrine until recently I have come to learn it is not biblical teaching.  I'll try to cover as much as possible of what you have quoted as time allows me.

 
Rom 5:12-19... How can sin enter the world through one man and one act of disobedience and that one act condem all and make all sinnersif there is no original sin? [/B]

Oh yes, I used to believe this very same theory.... because Adam commited the first sin, the entire human race became contaminated with sin!  That means that everyone born from Adam is now born with a depraved, sinful nature; I have recently come to learn that this is totally unsupported by scripture!  It's false!  It's an insult to God!  If that is the case it's really God's fault that we sin because that is the way He created us!  If that is the case then David wouldn't have written Psalm 51 pouring out his heart in repentance to God for his sinful, wicked deeds! You might as well tear that page out of your bible!  So BH, let's take a closer look at the passage you quoted from Rom5; it teaches that Adam's sin was not the sin of his descendants: "Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression." This shows that Paul did not consider the sin of Adam to be their sin. Those who teach the doctrine of original sin mean that because Adam sinned, men are now born sinners; that is, they become sinners involuntarily (automatically) and necessarily by inheriting a sinful nature from Adam. To interpret the phrase, "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and become sinners involuntarily and necessarily by receiving a sinful nature from Adam, is a forced and inconsistent interpretation of this passage; for this passage not only says that all men are "made sinners" because of Adam's transgression, it also says that all men are "made righteous" by the obedience of Christ, and that the free gift of life "came upon all men" by Christ Jesus. So, for the advocates of the doctrine of original sin to arbitrarily give to the phrases "made sinners" and "came upon all men" the meaning of physical force and physical necessity when these phrases refer to Adam's sin, without giving the same meaning to them when they refer to Christ's righteousness, is once again an example of a forced and inconsistent interpretation dictated by a prepossessed belief in the doctrine of original sin. This brings me back to the original title of this thread, did Jesus sin?  No he did not!  He did not because Jesus was not born with a sinful nature and niether was any other human being born with a sinful nature.  The difference between His birth and ours is that He was divinely begotten by the power of God in the womb of a virgin lady.  Was it possible for Him to commit sin?; yes it was, however, because He totally submitted to the will of His father He lived the perfect sinless life in total submission to the will of God His father in heaven. He lived a sinless life as an example for us to follow.   

 
Again I think the Bible is clear that naturally we do not have the ability to obey God. [/B]

 

And again, I can see your thinking might not be what is supported by scripture just like I used to think and believe just like you BH.....  you kind of nailed it in the second part of this quote: yes, naturally we "might"  not be able to totally obey God but through Christ and the power spirit of God and His word, we can now have the power and the knowledge to live a sin free life.  Do you think a person needs to know the scriptures in order to know right from wrong?  I think your answer would be, of course not!  It's just a natural part of the human being that tells him that it is wrong to go out an commit murder or whatever.  What man ever needed the Scripture or religious instruction to know that it is wrong for someone to forcefully take what is not his? Do you need the Scripture to know that it is wrong for a person to insult you, lie about you, or abuse you in some way? Could any society convince itself through education that it is really right to hate, lie, steal, and murder or that it is wrong to love and do good to its neighbor? 

I enjoy our discussions BH, and I would like to reply to more of your post but I am running out of time, so, maybe I can pick up on this later..... have a good day  

FR







   


   


  

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by franklin
And again, I can see your thinking might not be what is supported by scripture just like I used to think and believe just like you BH..... you kind of nailed it in the second part of this quote: yes, naturally we "might" not be able to totally obey God but through Christ and the power spirit of God and His word, we can now have the power and the knowledge to live a sin free life. Do you think a person needs to know the scriptures in order to know right from wrong? I think your answer would be, of course not! It's just a natural part of the human being that tells him that it is wrong to go out an commit murder or whatever. What man ever needed the Scripture or religious instruction to know that it is wrong for someone to forcefully take what is not his? Do you need the Scripture to know that it is wrong for a person to insult you, lie about you, or abuse you in some way? Could any society convince itself through education that it is really right to hate, lie, steal, and murder or that it is wrong to love and do good to its neighbor?

You must have a different defintion of the depth of sin than I do. We don't sin only through actions. Thoughts can be sin as well. That couple of seconds that you grasp and hold onto a temptation within your mind is when you start sinning. That moment of violent anger toward a brother that wrongs you, that flash of lustful thought toward a woman that crosses your path, these are sins, even though they aren't followed by actions. Sin never completely goes away; it just decreases in magnitude as we are sanctified and grow as Christians.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by humblejoe


You must have a different defintion of the depth of sin than I do. We don't sin only through actions. Thoughts can be sin as well. That couple of seconds that you grasp and hold onto a temptation within your mind is when you start sinning. That moment of violent anger toward a brother that wrongs you, that flash of lustful thought toward a woman that crosses your path, these are sins, even though they aren't followed by actions. Sin never completely goes away; it just decreases in magnitude as we are sanctified and grow as Christians.

 

Excellent post Humblejoe.  I was thinking the same thing.  Sin is something we do even when we do not know we are.  The more I grow the more I find the actions and thoughts I thought were okay before were really sins. 

Matt 5:21-22
21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, "You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, "You fool,' shall be guilty {enough to go} into the fiery hell.
(NAU)

Matt 5:27-28
27 "You have heard that it was said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
(NAU)