Did Jesus set the law aside at the Bethesda pool?

Saint Steven

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Like I said above, sin is the true (spiritual) load here, whether it comes out of the heart (Matthew 15:19) that houses the inner man or it is performed in action as if work. I don't deny the literal performance of this law. It was given to the Jews as a type and a reminder in hopes that one day they will understand and carry out the intend behind it. That day came with the coming of Christ.
With that in mind, do you observe the Sabbath?
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes, and no. In one sense, the Old Law is abolished because the "Law" was put away as a whole or in general in the fact that the Old Covenant is no more. However, in another sense (or way), there are still some laws that have been repeated or carried on over into the New Testament (Like the Moral Laws). Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, and do not commit adultery is referred to as the righteousness of the Law (which is another way of saying to love your neighbor (See Romans 8:4 cf. with Romans 13:8-10)).

For example: Rick had made a contract with Bob. However, Bob did not like the contract and desired for Rick to change it. So Rick destroyed or abolished the old contract and made a new one with some changes in it. The Old Contract is no more and yet there are changes made from the Old Contract (With some things still being the same).
So, do you believe that there are some laws that are still a part of the new covenant? Does the Bible say that? Or is it our human reasoning?
 
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I think that there are misunderstandings when Jesus is talking to the Pharisees about what the Pharisees had added to Moses' Law with their Rabbinical Oral Law.

Matthew 5:38-39 is talking about taking revenge on someone who has wronged you.

Leviticus 24:19-20 is establishing civil law judgements through the court. What someone is owed when they cannot be made whole any other way. In the case of a servant they were given their freedom.

It means what it says. While Leviticus 24:19-20 is dealing with court law justice, the justice was with the intent on taking the life of a man if another was killed, or to take the eye of another if a victim's eye was taken. Jesus is saying to turn the other cheek instead. This means it is the exact opposite of desiring justice in trying to get an eye for an eye or death for death. In fact, Jesus leads us by example. Not once did He ever strike back in force against anyone. His teaching on telling us to turn the other cheek means exactly that. To not use violent force in return (Whether that be physically or through the court system). We are to pray for our enemies and do good towards those who despitefully use us. In fact, Jesus even says to the Father to forgive those who crucified Him for they know not what they do.

You said:
They weren't discussing food in this conversation. The Pharisees asked why the disciples didn't perform the hand washing/cleansing ritual before they ate. Jesus said that not performing this cleansing ritual before touching their food didn't defile the man but what came out of his mouth could.

While washing one's hands is in view of the context, Jesus was not strictly speaking solely of food eaten with washed hands by the Pharisees traditions alone. Otherwise, Jesus would have clarified that point by saying, only certain things eaten can defile a man and the washing of hands when one eats food is not included. Jesus did not say that. Instead, Jesus said,

"A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it.” (John 15:11).

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:11).

You said:
This is the Law of clean and unclean foods and not what Jesus and the Pharisees were discussing.

While Jesus did not refer to clean and unclean foods from the OT specifically, He was telling others that it was not what goes into your mouth that defiles you. Jesus meant what he said. If you were correct, He would have said it a little differently.
 
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So, do you believe that there are some laws that are still a part of the new covenant? Does the Bible say that? Or is it our human reasoning?

Here is just a sampling.

1. Love the Lord your God (Mark 12:30) (Deuteronomy 6:5).

2. Love your neighbor (Mark 12:31) (Leviticus 19:18).

3. Do not murder (Matthew 19:18) ((Exodus 20:13).

3. Do not steal (Matthew 19:18) (Exodus 20:15).

4. Do not lie or bear false witness (Matthew 19:18) (Exodus 20:16)

5. Honor your father and mother (Matthew 19:19) (Exodus 20:12).
 
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icxn

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With that in mind, do you observe the Sabbath?
I have collected all these sticks over the years, quite the burden... Nevertheless, to the extent I observe what Christ said, I believe I can keep the Sabbath rest every now and then:

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matt. 11:28-30)
 
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Ken Rank

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Thanks, Ken.

That's the thing about the law, it's very "legalistic". If something is against the law it is illegal, right? Hard to discuss the law seriously without being legalistic. Not what you meant, I know.

Was the statement in Jeremiah not the command of God? (see OP) It says
"Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath..." - vs 22

Was the gospel writer remiss in not making clear what was happening here? He made a point of noting that the day on which this took place was the Sabbath. Why? No one in the passage says that this was not a violation of Sabbath law. It seems quite the contrary.

What was Jesus intention here? He created a huge issue here. Why?
What I mean is, and I am not trying to cause any strife.. I don't mean this as it will sound, but you are reading the verse through the eyes of the Pharisees. See, they determined, not God, that picking on Sabbath was illegal. God didn't command against it, THEY did. So when they say, "he picked and broke the Sabbath," it was their addition to God's commandment and not the commandment from God, that was broken. Well, you are kind of doing that here. Exactly what is a load? Is a load a fork full of food? A child? An ox that needs to be pulled from a ditch? Or something more personal that can WAIT until after Sabbath? Yeshua healed a man of an infirmity and told him to get up, get his stuff, and go home. There is no way, none brother, that we can stretch this out to be breaking a command from God unless we allow JEWISH LAW (Rabbinic Rulings) to be deemed equal to God's law. What did John say? He said, "this is the love of God that we obey His commandments and His commandments ARE NOT A BURDEN!" The Pharisees ADDED burdens and then accused Yeshua of breaking God's law when all he broke was the crap they added. :)

Be blessed.
 
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Saint Steven

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I have collected all these sticks over the years, quite the burden... Nevertheless, to the extent I observe what Christ said, I believe I can keep the Sabbath rest every now and then:

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matt. 11:28-30)
Don't let anyone catch you carrying that bundle of sticks on the Sabbath. Things might not go well for you. lol

Numbers 15:32-35
While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly,
34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.”
 
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Saint Steven

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What I mean is, and I am not trying to cause any strife.. I don't mean this as it will sound, but you are reading the verse through the eyes of the Pharisees. See, they determined, not God, that picking on Sabbath was illegal. God didn't command against it, THEY did. So when they say, "he picked and broke the Sabbath," it was their addition to God's commandment and not the commandment from God, that was broken. Well, you are kind of doing that here. Exactly what is a load? Is a load a fork full of food? A child? An ox that needs to be pulled from a ditch? Or something more personal that can WAIT until after Sabbath? Yeshua healed a man of an infirmity and told him to get up, get his stuff, and go home. There is no way, none brother, that we can stretch this out to be breaking a command from God unless we allow JEWISH LAW (Rabbinic Rulings) to be deemed equal to God's law. What did John say? He said, "this is the love of God that we obey His commandments and His commandments ARE NOT A BURDEN!" The Pharisees ADDED burdens and then accursed Yeshua of breaking God's law when all he broke was the crap they added. :)

Be blessed.
Thanks, brother.
I appreciate your thoughtful and detailed responses on this.

So, what does this passage say to you from your perspective? What do you get out of this when you read it? What is God teaching you? Is it just a story about Jesus' life? What's the takeaway for you?

If what your saying is correct, I wonder why the passage doesn't address it that way. Jesus CREATED a HUGE issue for this man. Why did he do that? And why doesn't the passage address this as a manmade rule issue? It says nothing about this NOT being a violation of Sabbath law.

And I agree with you, it's NO BIG DEAL for the guy to carry his mat. That doesn't bother me in the least. But in the book of Numbers we read about a guy who was stoned to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath. So... ??? Was that God's Sabbath law? (seems so)
 
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bling

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What do you mean when you say "God's commands"?
God has commanded us to care for our family and others as an example which we can be doing every moment. All our actions should be an expression of our Love for God and others.
 
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icxn

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Numbers 15:32-35
While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.”
Wood or sticks are the images and in general the sensations of material things that we have collected (and continue to collect) and which the devil uses as fuel to destroy us. Think of bodily pleasures, riches, vainglory, etc. They are the will of the flesh, the old man, which we must stone to death using Christ's teachings - these are the stones* - to correct our thinking and our way of life.

This is the Spirit of this story according to one of the Church Fathers.

_________
* See also 1 Cor. 3:10-17
 
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Saint Steven

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God has commanded us to care for our family and others as an example which we can be doing every moment. All our actions should be an expression of our Love for God and others.
That's good. I guess I would call that the law of conscience that God puts on everyone's heart.

Romans 2:13-15
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
 
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Saint Steven

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Wood or sticks are the images and in general the sensations of material things that we have collected (and continue to collect) and which the devil uses as fuel to destroy us. Think of bodily pleasures, riches, vainglory, etc. They are the will of the flesh, the old man, which we must stone to death using Christ's teachings - these are the stones* - to correct our thinking and our way of life.

This is the Spirit of this law according to one of the Church Fathers.

_________
* See also 1 Cor. 3:10-17
That's rather mystical. Do you think the man in Numbers was stoned to death over "images" and "sensations", or real fire wood? I suppose he did this wood collecting because he was cold. Seems like an extreme reaction to me. But the law is the law. The Apostle Paul called it "the ministry that brought death" and "the ministry that brought condemnation" and "what was transitory".

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.
11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
 
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icxn

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That's rather mystical. Do you think the man in Numbers was stoned to death over "images" and "sensations", or real fire wood?
Real fire wood of course. The story was instructive back then in its literal sense and it is instructive to us now in it's more... mystical sense as you put it.
 
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Loren T.

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In this gospel account (text below) of the healing at the Bethesda pool, Jesus commands the man to, "Pick up your mat and walk." In obeying Christ, the man broke Sabbath law. No load is to be carried on the Sabbath. Jesus could have asked the man to rise up and walk. Why did he include the mat carrying?

Notice that the gospel writer adds the note that the day on which this took place was a Sabbath. Why is this significant? There is no dispute in the passage that this was not a violation of Sabbath law.

Was the law set aside when Jesus commanded this act of Sabbath-breaking?

John 5:8-11
Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.”
9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath,
10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed,
“It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
11 But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jeremiah 17:21-22
This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem.
22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors.

Jesus was showing that he was the great I AM and that he could and did change the meaning of Sabbath. I know people say he was just showing what the law was for, which is true, but there is no debating that he deliberately changed the rules, IMO.
 
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Saint Steven

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Jesus was showing that he was the great I AM and that he could and did change the meaning of Sabbath. I know people say he was just showing what the law was for, which is true, but there is no debating that he deliberately changed the rules, IMO.
Right. That's why he said this. (see below) It was his call to change it.

Mark 2:28
So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
 
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I just skimmed to get here, but I think Ken Rank's post #46 is the winner. There was the 'oral' law and there was the 'written' law. Jesus had a lot of problems with the pharisees and sadducees and in this case 'the scribes'. Really, SCRIBES....aren't those the guys who wrote the law????

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

Yes, even dragging a chair across the dirt floor was considered WORK...because you were "PLOWING"....seriously? That just sounds as dumb as some of the beliefs and teachings we have today.

PS the Pharisees held that the 'oral' law was necessary to complete and explain the written law. Neither the Pharisees or the Sadduccees existed until the return from Babylon.
 
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Saint Steven

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I just skimmed to get here, but I think Ken Rank's post #46 is the winner. There was the 'oral' law and there was the 'written' law. Jesus had a lot of problems with the pharisees and sadducees and in this case 'the scribes'. Really, SCRIBES....aren't those the guys who wrote the law????

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

Yes, even dragging a chair across the dirt floor was considered WORK...because you were "PLOWING"....seriously? That just sounds as dumb as some of the beliefs and teachings we have today.

PS the Pharisees held that the 'oral' law was necessary to complete and explain the written law. Neither the Pharisees or the Sadduccees existed until the return from Babylon.
Welcome, and thanks.

If Jesus commanded you to carry your mattress home from the pool, would that be work for you? lol (especially if you hadn't walked in thirty-eight years)
 
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What do you make of this?

Jeremiah 17:21-22
This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem.
22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors.
According to the Talmud Shabbat compiled from sources before and after Jesus' walk on earth, it is not permissible to carry a loaf of bread outside your house. The people at the Pool of Bethesda would have objected to anyone carrying a mat, bedroll, blanket etc. I recall reading some texts so strict as to forbid carrying something heavier than an olive on the seventh day of the week.

Jesus set aside the law to help a man who was invalid. This was a greater need than for the invalid to rest another day on his mat.

Paul was also accused of teaching people to disobey the law. There is a Dead Sea Scrolls showing a first century knowledge of the law not allowing people to carry even something as light as food or a vessel outside of their homes. The Dead Sea scroll community at Qumran was destroyed during the 66 AD- 70 AD was between the Romans and the Jewish rebels.

Jesus was more important than Moses in the passage you cited.
 
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Saint Steven

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According to the Talmud Shabbat compiled from sources before and after Jesus' walk on earth, it is not permissible to carry a loaf of bread outside your house. The people at the Pool of Bethesda would have objected to anyone carrying a mat, bedroll, blanket etc. I recall reading some texts so strict as to forbid carrying something heavier than an olive on the seventh day of the week.

Jesus set aside the law to help a man who was invalid. This was a greater need than for the invalid to rest another day on his mat.

Paul was also accused of teaching people to disobey the law. There is a Dead Sea Scrolls showing a first century knowledge of the law not allowing people to carry even something as light as food or a vessel outside of their homes.

Jesus was more important than Moses in the passage you cited.
Thanks. That is informative.

What do you make of the passage in question? Jesus didn't have to command the man to carry his mat, thus creating a huge issue. What was going on here from your perspective?
 
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In this gospel account (text below) of the healing at the Bethesda pool, Jesus commands the man to, "Pick up your mat and walk." In obeying Christ, the man broke Sabbath law. No load is to be carried on the Sabbath. Jesus could have asked the man to rise up and walk. Why did he include the mat carrying?

Notice that the gospel writer adds the note that the day on which this took place was a Sabbath. Why is this significant? There is no dispute in the passage that this was not a violation of Sabbath law.

Jeremiah 17:21-22

No, this is a misreading caused by cherry picking verses out of context.

Jeremiah is about carrying goods in and out of the city for buying and selling.
 
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