Did Jesus save us from God?

[Saint Steven]

So, I'm not here to give you fellow Universalists Christians a black eye. I don't think you're heretics, but I do think that you have a few places in your Hermeneutical praxis that could be improved, just as those who lean toward ECT may need to have their praxis examined too. No one is perfect. And I'm a perfect example of imperfection.

So, what suggestions do you have to improve our "Hermeneutical praxis" in UR ?

 

[Saint Steven]

Is the Policeman who locks up violent people a bully, too?

Some are. It's called police brutality. Heard of that?
I'm from Minneapolis. Some here want to defund the police. (George Floyd/BLM)
I'm not one of them. I support the police, for the most part.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So, what suggestions do you have to improve our "Hermeneutical praxis" in UR ?

Read a book like Michael J. Gorman's "Elements of Biblical Exegesis" (2009), and D.A. Carson's "Exegetical Fallacies" (1996). There's other books on Biblical Exegesis and/or Hermeneutics, too, that could be read instead or as well. These are just two that come to mind.

 

[renniks]

Some are. It's called police brutality. Heard of that?
I'm from Minneapolis. Some here want to defund the police. (George Floyd/BLM)
I'm not one of them. I support the police, for the most part.

Again, you are just dancing around the question. You think bringing justice makes one a bully? And since God's justice is always perfect and never flawed in any way, how can he be considered a bully for being a God of judgment and justice?

 

[Saint Steven]

Read a book like Michael J. Gorman's "Elements of Biblical Exegesis" (2009), and D.A. Carson's "Exegetical Fallacies" (1996). There's other books on Biblical Exegesis and/or Hermeneutics, too, that could be read instead or as well. These are just two that come to mind.

Thanks. Zzzz...

 

[Saint Steven]

Again, you are just dancing around the question. You think bringing justice makes one a bully? And since God's justice is always perfect and never flawed in any way, how can he be considered a bully for being a God of judgment and justice?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against justice.
I just don't think it is served by incinerating humans for all eternity. Do you?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm guessing this means that you don't attend church? Are you not a part of a faith community?

Why would this mean that I don't attend church? That's a red-herring, Steven.

But if you want the honest truth, at the present moment, I am not a member of any particular church. My wife decided long ago that due to various people getting in her face, she didn't want to be a formal part of any church. My son also doesn't feel he is on line with Christianity, so naturally, he doesn't want to go to church.

I have intended to relocate myself to another church, but with the fact that my family doesn't really wish to join me in my choice of church, and with the current pandemic, I'm not at a place yet to join one.

This doesn't mean I've never been a formal member of a church or that I haven't ever darkened the halls of a local church. I have been a member here or there off and on over the years, multiple times, in fact.

So, back to the main discussion. My assertion is that there's a lot that Christians are saying among themselves (or ourselves), and at each other, and that often, in our modern culture, we find ourselves in a 12 way tug-o-war over the Bible and over "who's got it most right?!"

 

[Saint Steven]

So, back to the main discussion. My assertion is that there's a lot that Christians are saying among themselves (or ourselves), and at each other, and that often, in our modern culture, we find ourselves in a 12 way tug-o-war over the Bible and over "who's got it most right?!"

Are you a part of the solution, or a part of the problem?

 

[Clare73]

If Jesus had to stand between us and God to save us, then there is no love in God. It means we weren't saved by the love of God, but rather by the love of Jesus. Does that make sense?

And now we have it. . .denial of the gospel.

UR denies the gospel.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Are you a part of the solution, or a part of the problem?

That remains to be seen, doesn't it? While I'd like to be at a place to offer a solution, I'm thinking that the reality of the problem might preclude a final solution; at best, as an Existentialist, all that I tend to hope for is an ongoing effort to ameliorate the problem. But biblically speaking, I'm kind of thinking that only Jesus, Himself, can "solve" the problem, and that hasn't happened yet.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why would this mean that I don't attend church? That's a red-herring, Steven.

But if you want the honest truth, at the present moment, I am not a member of any particular church. My wife decided long ago that due to various people getting in her face, she didn't want to be a formal part of any church. My son also doesn't feel he is on line with Christianity, so naturally, he doesn't want to go to church.

I have intended to relocate myself to another church, but with the fact that my family doesn't really wish to join me in my choice of church, and with the current pandemic, I'm not at a place yet to join one.

This doesn't mean I've never been a formal member of a church or that I haven't ever darkened the halls of a local church. I have been a member here or there off and on over the years, multiple times, in fact.

So, back to the main discussion. My assertion is that there's a lot that Christians are saying among themselves (or ourselves), and at each other, and that often, in our modern culture, we find ourselves in a 12 way tug-o-war over the Bible and over "who's got it most right?!"

A red-herring? I didn't mean it that way.
But I was right. How did I guess?

And there is little to prevent you from attending church by yourself.
My concern would be that you would be arguing with everyone and not be able to get along.
That was my point.

But I don't know if you would bring your arguments to church or not.
If you have done that in the past, then you would probably do it again.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I'm guessing this means that you don't attend church? Are you not a part of a faith community?

 

[Saint Steven]

That remains to be seen, doesn't it? While I'd like to be at a place to offer a solution, I'm thinking that the reality of the problem might preclude a final solution; at best, as an Existentialist, all that I tend to hope for is an ongoing effort to ameliorate the problem. But biblically speaking, I'm kind of thinking that only Jesus, Himself, can "solve" the problem, and that hasn't happened yet.

Is Jesus an Existentialist?

 

[Clare73]

So, it makes MORE sense to you that Jesus died to save us from himself? Wow.
Why was he so dangerous in the first place?

You are more uninformed than I realized.

Try Romans 1:18 or Romans 5:9.

There is another model of the atonement called Christus Victor.
A model from the early church. Christ as Victorious, rather than the
penal substitution model of Calvinism. (from after the Reformation)

https://eccentricfundamentalist.com/2021/04/05/christus-victor-as-atonement/

Oh, for cryin' out loud. . .the Reformation doesn't deny Christus Victor.

It's not either/or, it's both/and, substitutionary penal and Christus Victor; i.e., subsitutionary penal so there could be a Christus Victor.

Why do you think he came to die an atoning death (Romans 3:25, Romans 5:9, Romans 5:11; Hebrews 2:17) for the ransom of many (Matthew 20:28)?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

A red-herring? I didn't mean it that way.
But I was right. How did I guess?

And there is little to prevent you from attending church by yourself.
My concern would be that you would be arguing with everyone and not be able to get along.
That was my point.

Yeah. That could be a problem. But it wouldn't be me who instigates any arguments in church ... and being that I'm not a status quo talking head who will just parrot back whatever comes at me from the pulpit (and I really never have been for that matter in the 36+ years I've engaged the Christian faith), I'm also cited as the trouble maker. Lol! But I'm in good company I hear since...

But I don't know if you would bring your arguments to church or not.
If you have done that in the past, then you would probably do it again.

I bring my point of view to church, whichever church I attend, but usually when I'm at church I'm purposefully passive and don't posit any issues until.....prodded, pressed or pushed to do so. And then, I have to tell the truth about what I "really think." ... but y'know, I can only stand and say "Here I stand ..." (It's just that rather than having Luther in tow, I have Pascal and Kiekegaard in tow, among a host of others.... he he he he ! It's so much more interesting than the usual repartee ... )

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Is Jesus an Existentialist?

Of course not. Why would He be? He knows Who He Is.

 

[prophecy_uk]

What should we conclude from your post?

Either Jesus didn't die to save us from God,
or Jesus died to save us from the devil. ???
Which is it?

Yes, your own question shows the answer, how can Jesus save us from God when the devil is what hurts man.


Jesus in your opinion saved us from God. In mine, forgetting the devil is mans enemy, puts all the blame on God.


But Jesus placed all the blame back onto man, and even though they are in denial of the devil being their father, their father still remembers them and they remember him in their ways of lust and lies.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Did the devil die for us, did anyone die for us, or Jesus Christ died for you ?



Anyone want to talk about a more relevant question than a silly one, that they state that we are saved from God ?




1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?





God died for us, how wicked a doctrine to not acknowledge it..


1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

 

[renniks]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against justice.
I just don't think it is served by incinerating humans for all eternity. Do you?

So we've jumped straight to hell and skipped all the nuances of the topic. Noted.
Since I don't believe hell is a place where people are incinerated for all eternity, I don't have a dog in that fight.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Hell is where all who hate Heaven go, and all who live with Heaven in them, have no hell to show.

If we talk of Heaven and bring Heaven blessings, why would a curse of hell be on our mind.



It is the same, as discussing a topic that hates God, God predicted it, it is fulfilled, fools join in on it..


Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, your own question shows the answer, how can Jesus save us from God when the devil is what hurts man.


Jesus in your opinion saved us from God. In mine, forgetting the devil is mans enemy, puts all the blame on God.


But Jesus placed all the blame back onto man, and even though they are in denial of the devil being their father, their father still remembers them and they remember him in their ways of lust and lies.

Who created hell? (and for what purpose)