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Featured Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Tetra, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Rationality rules the rules of rationality! Supporter

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    Congratulations, Jason, you just ignored everything I said, and didn't address one bit of it. How should I feel about that, brother?
     
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  2. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

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    ... and 1 glass of wine makes you no longer sober? :confused:
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    How about a glass of 151?
    Still sober?
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Your points are not valid because they deny what the Bible is actually saying.

    The Bible translators chose the word "sober" because that is what it means. Even if there was another meaning behind the word "sober" it would still have to mean that to some extent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  5. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Rationality rules the rules of rationality! Supporter

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    That's funny. I was just thinking the same thing about your points, especially since I went back to the Greek AND mentioned how different translators have actually translated the original term in different ways in different English bible versions.
     
  6. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Speaking as someone who does not drink, your arguments are completely invalid.
     
  7. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    That is not what the Bible says. The Bible says, in that passage, that a bishop should be σώφρων, which means self-controlled, and μὴ πάροινος, which means not a drunkard.

    A self-controlled bishop can drink wine (as Timothy was, in fact, told to do), but he knows when to stop, so that he does not become a drunkard.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Greek? Yeah that’s Greek to me. It should be for you, too. Especially seeing you did grow up writing biblical Greek or Hebrew. God preserved His Word in the world language of today (English).
     
  9. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    He never does.
     
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  10. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Rationality rules the rules of rationality! Supporter

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    Oh, so the Word wasn't preserved before English people came along?
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not true at all. I used to believe that a Christian could drink socially as a part of their liberty in Christ (myself included). But I have come to later discover that the Bible does not support the ingestion of strong intoxicating drinks anymore than it would weed or cocaine, etc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Right, and the apostle Paul wrote the King James. :rolleyes:

    Actually, God chose to perfectly preserve His Word in 4 languages through out history so far.

    1. Hebrew.
    2. Greek.
    3. Old Latin.
    4. English.

    Check out this article here:
    How did God preserve His word for this day?
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Anybody can just read my other posts here in this thread and on other parts of the forum and just know that is like not true. But thank you for the false accusation, though. I will rejoice in God my Savior.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Okay, so I am going back and attempting to answer a little of what you had written. The reason why I initially ignored this is because you were using fancy words. In my experience, I believe when folks seek to talk in a fancy way, they are not doing so as to benefit anyone but themselves (or to make themselves look overly important). Most people do not reply to fancy talk like this. For how many people reply to your posts when you talk in this way?

    Okay, as for your initial words used before your question:

    Vacuous: marked by lack of ideas or intelligence.

    Explication: an explanation; interpretation.

    You are saying: I think the central issue here, which has yet been left in a unintelligent series of explanations, is our discerning of just exactly what being "sober" is and what the moral application and outcome is of being sober?

    This is a several questions and not just one that needs to be numbered and made clear. You just threw a bunch of questions into one question in a paragraph among many (with some fancy words beforehand) and you expected me to address it. But nobody is going to answer you if you do that (under normal circumstances). But because you insulted me and you said I do not address the points in people's posts, I am going to address a few of things you said (that I skipped because you were not talking normally).

    Question #1. How do we discern just exactly what being sober means in the Bible?

    Question #2. What is the moral application in being sober?

    Question #3. What is the outcome of being sober?


    Answer #1. I believe I answered this one by providing you with the etymological definition on the English word "sober." Also, context, cross references, the same occurrences of that word, and prayer is an important way to figure out what a word is saying.

    Definition:

    3525 nḗphō – properly, to be sober (not drunk), not intoxicated; (figuratively) free from illusion, i.e. from the intoxicating influences of sin (like the impact of selfish passion, greed, etc.).

    3525 /nḗphō ("be sober, unintoxicated") refers to having presence of mind (clear judgment), enabling someone to be temperate (self-controlled). 3525 /nḗphō("uninfluenced by intoxicants") means to have "one's wits (faculties) about them," which is the opposite of being irrational.

    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
    to be sober, to abstain from wine.

    Source:
    Strong's Greek: 3525. νήφω (néphó) -- to be sober, to abstain from wine


    Scripture:

    6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night." (1 Thessalonians 5:6-7).

    Context:

    5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." (1 Thessalonians 5:5).

    8 "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thessalonians 5:8-9).

    Being sober is associated with putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. So we need to be sober by having faith and love within our Christian lives. BTW ~ I love you in Jesus Christ (even if we may disagree strongly). We are also to have the hope of salvation to sober, as well. We are to watch and be sober as a part of the Lord's return. We are to keep the faith and love others. For if we do not live holy for the Lord and we do not do what is right and good, we could miss out on the Rapture. We have to keep the faith and love others. We have to keep our hope in Jesus and His good ways. But there are those who are asleep at night in the faith. They are drunken in the night. Their faith is drunken and they are not looking for their Lord's return and they are not being ready or prepared and being sober and awake (watching).

    Being drunk here would not make much sense if it did not mean drunk. It is a parallel. Drunk (alcoholic drunkenness) is the parallel with being spiritually drunk.

    Cross Reference:

    In the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13): We learn of the foolish virgins took no oil for their lamps and when the call came, they did not have time to buy more oil and be on time for the wedding. The oil is representative of the Holy Spirit. They did not have the Holy Spirt and they tried to get themselves right with God before their marriage to Jesus (at the Rapture), but it was too late. They missed the wedding.

    48 "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:48-51).

    1 Timothy 3:1-3 says that a bishop should be sober and not given to wine. The words sober and not given to wine are definitely related.

    Answer #2. So what is the moral application in being sober?

    The moral application of being sober for a believer in Jesus Christ is not potentially harming yourself and others both physically and spiritually with spiritual and or physical drunkenness. We can be sober physically by not being given to wine. This gives us a longer and healthier life to live. We would not be defiling God's temple, as well (Seeing alcohol is known to damage the body even with moderate use). So the moral good of taking care of the temple of God should be noted in regards to abstaining from wine or in being sober. To be spiritually sober would include abstaining from wine because one could potentially fall into alcoholism and not be able to live out their faith in love like they are supposed to. We are to be sober spiritually by loving others and in building the faith and hope in Jesus Christ. The moral good is allowing God to change our lives and the lives of others to walk in His good and upright ways.

    #3. What is the outcome of being sober?

    It is obvious. If a believer is being sober from alcohol, there are many health benefits. They will also not be worried about their next drink but they will instead be focused on the things of God like praying, helping the poor, preaching the gospel, loving others, etc. The ultimate outcome of being spiritually sober is eternal life with Christ; And what could be more beautiful than that?

    Being sober is not playing games with drugs like alcohol. Even if God did allow believers to drink strong intoxicating beverages for social reasons, why take the chance on being the one who could slip into addiction like so many others? Also, logic dictates that you were not as sober as you were when you did not have your first drink. You are effected by the beverage in some way.

    You asked: Why is a lack of sobriety a danger to a Christian's efforts to keep in step with God's Spirit?

    Because God's Word is written by the Spirit and the Word of God gives us many warnings against strong alcoholic beverages.

    Here are 75 references on drinking alcohol (Which include some warnings).

    1) Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.

    2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality.

    3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

    4) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

    5) Deuteronomy 21:20 - A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.

    6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

    7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

    8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.

    9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

    10) 1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree.

    11) 2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin.

    12) 2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.

    13) 1 Kings 16:8-10 - The king was drinking himself into drunkenness when he was assassinated

    14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.

    15) Esther 1:5-12 - The king gave each one all the drink he wanted. The king was intoxicated when he commanded the queen to come.

    16) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.

    17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

    18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

    19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

    20) Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.

    21) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.

    22) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

    23) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

    24) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.

    25) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable

    26) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.

    27) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

    28) Proverbs 31:6-7 - Strong drink could be given to those about to perish or those in pain. Better anesthetics are available today.

    29) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)

    30) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

    31) Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk.

    32) Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.

    33) Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.

    34) Isaiah 22:12-13 - The Israelites choose to drink; their future looks hopeless to them.

    35) Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

    36) Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim.

    37) Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down.

    38) Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment.

    39) Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth.

    40) Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

    41) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

    42) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

    43) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

    44) Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.

    45) Daniel 5:2-3 - The king, along with his nobles, wives, and concubines, drank from the goblets which had been taken from God’s temple.

    46) Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.

    47) Daniel 5:23 - God sent word to Belshazzar that punishment would be swift for the evil he had committed.

    48) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.

    49) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.

    50) Joel 1:5 - Drunkards awake to see God’s judgment.

    51) Joel 3:3 - The enemy is judged for selling girls for wine.

    52) Amos 2:8 - Unrighteous acts of Israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.

    53) Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.

    54) Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.

    55) Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God.

    56) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

    57) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

    58) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

    59) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.

    60) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine.

    61) Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness.

    62) Luke 21:34 - Drunkenness will cause a person not to be ready for the Lord’s return.

    63) Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.

    64) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.

    65) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.

    66) 1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God

    67) Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.

    68) Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.

    69) 1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness.

    70) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

    71) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

    72) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

    73) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.

    74) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

    75) 1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.

    Source:
    75 Bible references on drinking alcohol.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  15. Philip_B

    Philip_B all shall be well and all shall be well and ... Supporter

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    Matthew 11:19
    the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, “Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!” Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.’

    Luke 7:34-35
    the Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, “Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!” Nevertheless, wisdom is vindicated by all her children.’

    John 2:6-10
    Now standing there were six stone water-jars for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus said to them, ‘Fill the jars with water.’ And they filled them up to the brim. He said to them, ‘Now draw some out, and take it to the chief steward.’ So they took it. When the steward tasted the water that had become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward called the bridegroom and said to him, ‘Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now.’​

    I have no intent to enter into dispute, but simply to add some text that provides some balance to the conversation. I absolutely respect the views of those who feel determined on the basis of their understanding of the canon to take a contrary view.
     
  16. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    I think the view I voiced here was somewhat similar to yours, but it is also more than understandable why people have very strong views against alcohol.
    The Temperance movement was historically very much tied with women getting the right to vote. Husbands coming home drunk at night and beating their wives made the banning of alcohol a very reasonable proposition to many women.
    And, the effect of strictly curtailing access to alcohol did alleviate many of those kinds of problems.
    Maybe the closest thing to Biblical views on drinking are Biblical views on laughter. From what I have read, rabbis wrote long and hard about the evils of laughter. And the whole picture is summed up in commentary of Sarah and Isaac, who was named after her laughter.
    Was it joy that was behind her laughter, or was it derivise, bitter mockery of the idea of her having a baby at her age?
    Like drinking itself, the ribald and the obscene, and the joyous and transcendant are bonded together, like two sides of the same coin, and it the chances of either one of the other coming to the for come down to a coin toss.
     
  17. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Well, that's the test of whether you're drinking too much, isn't it? If your table is covered with vomit and filth, you're drinking too much.

    Otherwise you're a moderate drinker, and the condemnation doesn't apply to you.

    Personally, my table is free from vomit.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Bible has homonyms within it. These are words that look and sound the same but they can have different meanings. "Sons of God" can refer to angels in the Old Testament, and yet in the New Testament, "sons of God" can refer to believers in Christ. There are actually three different kinds of wine mentioned in the Bible.

    #1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content)
    (Proverbs 20:1) (Proverbs 23:31) (1 Timothy 3:1-3).

    #2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
    (Proverbs 9:2) (1 Timothy 5:23).

    #3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice
    (A non intoxicating beverage)
    (Genesis 40:11) (Isaiah 65:8) (Deuteronomy 32:14) (Matthew 26:29).​

    So we cannot just point to similar looking words in the Bible and just assume that they are being used always in the same exact way always.

    Anyways, in regards to Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34-35: Well, lets look at the facts here in context by looking at these passages and by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

    John (the Baptist):

    #1. The lie that John the Baptist had a devil.

    (a) The Bible mentions that demon possessed people hung out in remote areas such as tombs (Mark 5:2 KJV).

    (b) John the Baptist was but a voice crying in the wilderness (Matthew 3:3 KJV) (Luke 3:4 KJV). Wilderness was not a forest, but it was a remote location like a desert where not many people would normally reside.

    (c) John the Baptist was told that he had a demon. It has been recorded in the Bible that a demon possessed person has hung out in a remote area (away from people).
    #2. John the Baptist was told not to drink wine or strong drink.

    This probably included all forms of wine because it does not specify what type of wine it actually is. So if this is the case, then it would be like the Nazarite vow that had forbidden even the consumption of moist or dry grapes, too (Numbers 6:3 KJV).

    #3. John the Baptist was told not to drink wine and eat bread.

    Both wine and bread are products of yeast or a leavening type process. Grape juice straight from the vine is not the result of a process of yeast and Jesus could drink this version of wine because it was considered a natural or good wine.​

    Versus.

    Jesus Christ (Our Eternal God & Savior)

    #1. Jesus (Son of Man) has come drinking and eating.

    The lie was that he was a winebiber and a glutton. We already know that wine can refer to unfermented wine, fermented wine, etc. Scripture warns against the dangers of fully fermented wine and the Jews lies were always the polar opposite of what was actually true. For John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit and not a devil. So Jesus was the polar opposite of what of what would make a winebiber. For the far opposite extreme of a winebiber is an abstainer of alcoholic wine; And Jesus was far the exact opposite of being a glutton because he fasted for 40 days and 40 nights.

    #2. The lie that Jesus is a friend of publicans and sinners.

    In fact, there is a popular song in Christian media today that promotes Jesus being a friend of sinners. Well, just look at the lyrics line by line here and then see if it matches up with the Word of God or not. Most of what is in the lyrics is a lie or a polar opposite of what the Bible actually says. For Jesus did not make friends with people that would continue to sin against Him. Jesus was around sinners to evangelize them. Jesus told men to repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery that she was forgiven, but he also told her to sin no more. Jesus is not a friend of sinners who stay as sinners. He came to heal the sinners and to help them to destroy the works of the devil in their life (i.e. sin).

    #3. Wisdom is justified by all her children (Luke 7:35 KJV).

    Wisdom is a woman (Proverbs 1:20 KJV) (Proverbs 7:4 KJV). Wisdom being a woman produces like kind of itself. God is the embodiment of wisdom; And what are the 9 fruits of the Spirit? Solomon talks about wine and wisdom in Ecclesiastes 2:3; He says, "I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly," Jesus did not give himself unto wine. He was the Holy Son of God and walked a life of perfection so that others could walk with Him if one struggled with a particular sin (like alcoholism).​

    So in conclusion:

    We can see that John's life mission of evangelization was to reach people by them coming to a desert to hear him; And Jesus mission of evangelization was to reach people by evangelizing them in their own homes. Many of these men were probably considered winebibers and gluttons and so Jesus was associated with being friends of these types of sinners. Yet John was far away from where sinners hang out and he was but only a voice in the wilderness (Preparing the way for the Lord). Hence, why they called him a devil because devils hung out in remote areas such as tombs. So the contrast is one of taking into account all of the facts here; So we learn that the contrast here is one of John and Jesus's social life styles of how they evangelized the lost.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  19. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but none of the Scriptures you quoted prove Christians should abstain from drinking.
     
  20. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    I drink socially and I don't get drunk. So do millions of other people. So did Jesus.

    The New Testament was written in Greek. Throwing the unreliable KJV at us is evidence of nothing.

    And in any case, "not given to wine" does not mean "teetotal."
     
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