Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

[Tetra]

As I mentioned before, strong alcoholic drinks are only sinful if you consume them for social reasons and not for medical reasons in a rare emergency.

Also, I have talked with people before who told me they gave up alcohol, but they still talk about it like it is God's gift to man. The problem here is that you are simply unaware that alcoholic drinks (of today) are technically a toxin or mild poison that the body's immune system can fight off (for the most part) in moderate consumption. The body cannot absorb alcohol and so it seeks to get rid of it. All calories from alcoholic beverages are empty calories and there is no nutritional value. Also, mothers who are pregnant are told not to drink alcohol because it can harm the child. In fact, even moderate use of alcohol continually can lead to having an irregular heartbeat, receiving a stroke, or heart failure (See this new medical study at this article here). That is because alcohol is a poison. Once you realize alcohol is a poison and of empty value, you will see it as sinful. For Scripture says that if you defile God's temple, God will destroy that person (1 Corinthians 3:17).

31 "Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
32 In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper." (Proverbs 23:31-32 NIV).



There are three types of wine mentioned in the Bible.

Wine Type #1. - Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).
Wine Type #2. - Wine mixed or diluted by three parts of water (Wine Low in Alcoholic Content).
Wine Type #3. - Fully Fermented Wine (Wine High in Alcoholic Content).

The Israelite would buy alcoholic beverages with it being high in alcoholic content for storage and for medical reasons, but when it came time to drink it, they diluted it with water. In fact, we learn that the Israelite did not drink strong drink or wine so that they might know that the Lord is God.

"Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God" (Deuteronomy 29:6).



This is simply not true. A study shows that even after one drink, people's reaction time in driving was seriously slowed from when they were sober. Also, to say that the Bible does not mean sober when it says sober is simply to re-write the Bible because we do not like that word.



As I said before, alcohol consumption (other than for medical reasons) is forbidden.



I can say the same for you. Try doing your homework and look into how the many problems that arise from mild consumption of alcohol. Do a paper on it or something and get back to me.

May I ask you a question, and I'm not trying to be rude, but serious... you have said you have argued this many times before, and so it has brought on the question. Why do you think the majority of Christians on the forum (and lets be honest, even outside the forum) disagree with your position? Why do you think that is?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I want to thank you. I was looking more at Romans 14 and reading an article, and I am now actually being more conservative now on this issue. I believe the word "wine" is either in reference to grape juice (unfermented wine) or it is in reference to Israelite wine (that is a fermented wine that is diluted with 3 parts of water - whereby it is low in alcoholic content). I used to be an Abstentionist, and now I believe I am a Prohibitionist (with the exception of alcohol drink used only for medical reasons).

Anyways, I believe the word "wine" is not in reference to the alcoholic wines of today because the Bible warns us to be sober many times (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

A person like myself can drink just one white Russian and not be sober minded. How would I know my limit in being a light weight? Do I experiment to find out?

...I think the central issue here, which has yet been left in a vacuous state of explication, is our discerning of just exactly what being "sober" is and what the moral application and outcome is of being sober? If being "sober" is important, assuming we know what it is, then why is a lack of sobriety a danger to a Christian's efforts to keep in step with God's Spirit? See, this seemingly tiny little concept (i.e. sobriety) has been going as heretofore unexplained in this thread. However, I don't think we can just skimmy over the specifics of what sobriety is and why it is important.

So, in your estimation, just what is being "sobre," but specifically in the context in which Paul is delineating it in the New Testament?

Romans 13:13-14 says, "Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

Ok, so. Does imbibing an alcoholic beverage (or wine in the case of this OP thread) and becoming under the influence of the alcohol then automatically lead to all these other moral faults?

Romans 15:1 says, "We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves."

So it is about self denial and not pleasing ourselves. I believe this liberty is regards to "wine" is in reference to either grape juice or Israelite wine (which was low in alcoholic content). For strong alcoholic wine can make a person not sober minded even with one glass. So strong alcoholic wine (or other strong alcoholic drinks) is not among the liberties Paul is talking about here in Romans 14.

No, it's not just about self denial. It's also about being discerning about how, when, where, why, and with whom we do various activities in life, and being discerning in this way doesn't by all means also infer that each of us has to just give up a whole bunch of "neutral" activities in all cases just because other people have habitual problems with those activities. In some cases, we might need to abstain in a more permanent way; Maybe. In other cases, if may just be a matter of strictly refraining from partaking while in the presence of those who have habitual problems with alcohol.

However, even with that said, I do understand your point about the importance of each Christian actually being very mindful of how their own activities could affect other Christians. I do think you're right--to a limited extent--that Christians in, say, the U.S. have so much freedom that they've imported a false sense of uber-liberty into their Christian outlook and then they say, "...well, too bad for those other folks, that's their problem! No one's going to impinge upon my freedom to do what I want!" And so, by that implication, I'd say you are partially correct. Many of us Christians either turn a blind eye to our own shortcomings and/or don't remain attentive to how our activities might affect our brothers and sisters in Christ. We should all be more mindful and careful of these kinds of things, as Paul commanded in the Lord that we should. This is what truly caring people would do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not so. Psalm 104 and other passages say it's a good thing.

No. Psalms 104:15 is referring to either fresh grape juice (unfermented wine) or Israelite wine that is diluted by three parts water (Whereby it's alcoholic content is very low). It's not talking about the wine of barbarians (or Gentiles) that are sold in stores today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

May I ask you a question, and I'm not trying to be rude, but serious... you have said you have argued this many times before, and so it has brought on the question. Why do you think the majority of Christians on the forum (and lets be honest, even outside the forum) disagree with your position? Why do you think that is?

Because most Christians do not obey the following passage.

15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:15-17).

Christians right now can read the medical studies I provided on the dangers of alcohol with even moderate consumption. But they don't want to hear it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...I think the central issue here, which has yet been left in a vacuous state of explication, is our discerning of just exactly what being "sober" is and what the moral application and outcome is of being sober? If being "sober" is important, assuming we know what it is, then why is a lack of sobriety a danger to a Christian's efforts to keep in step with God's Spirit? See, this seemingly tiny little concept (i.e. sobriety) has been going as heretofore unexplained in this thread. However, I don't think we can just skimmy over the specifics of what sobriety is and why it is important.

So, in your estimation, just what is being "sobre," but specifically in the context in which Paul is delineating it in the New Testament?

Ok, so. Does imbibing an alcoholic beverage (or wine in the case of this OP thread) and becoming under the influence of the alcohol then automatically lead to all these other moral faults?

No, it's not just about self denial. It's also about being discerning about how, when, where, why, and with whom we do various activities in life, and being discerning in this way doesn't by all means also infer that each of us has to just give up a whole bunch of "neutral" activities in all cases just because other people have habitual problems with those activities. In some cases, we might need to abstain in a more permanent way; Maybe. In other cases, if may just be a matter of strictly refraining from partaking while in the presence of those who have habitual problems with alcohol.

However, even with that said, I do understand your point about the importance of each Christian actually being very mindful of how their own activities could affect other Christians. I do think you're right--to a limited extent--that Christians in, say, the U.S. have so much freedom that they've imported a false sense of uber-liberty into their Christian outlook and then they say, "...well, too bad for those other folks, that's their problem! No one's going to impinge upon my freedom to do what I want!" And so, by that implication, I'd say you are partially correct. Many of us Christians either turn a blind eye to our own shortcomings and/or don't remain attentive to how our activities might affect our brothers and sisters in Christ. We should all be more mindful and careful of these kinds of things, as Paul commanded in the Lord that we should. This is what truly caring people would do.

I think people try to change the definition of the word "sober" based upon their likes and interests. For did you not look up the word "sober" with the thinking it would support your view on alcohol? However, the origin of the word "sober" has been established.

sober (adj.)

mid-14c., "moderate in desires or actions, temperate, restrained," especially "abstaining from strong drink," also "calm, quiet, not overcome by emotion," from Old French sobre "decent; sober" (12c.), from Latin sobrius "not drunk, temperate, moderate, sensible," from a variant of se- "without" (see se-) + ebrius "drunk," of unknown origin. Meaning "not drunk at the moment" is from late 14c.; also "appropriately solemn, serious, not giddy."

Related: Soberly; soberness. Sobersides "sedate, serious-minded person" is recorded from 1705.

sober (v.)

late 14c., "reduce to a quiet condition" (transitive), from sober (adj.). Meaning "render grave or serious" is from 1726. Intransitive sense of "become sober" (since 1847 often with up) is from 1820. Related: Sobered; sobering.


Source:
sober | Origin and meaning of sober by Online Etymology Dictionary

One cannot be as serious minded as if they were when they were not intoxicated with alcohol. Even one drink takes away a person's ability to think seriously or critically. Scientific studies have shown that men's critical thinking and reaction time is slowed or prone to error when solving problems.

It is also a medical fact that alcohol gives you only empty calories and your body fights to pass the alcohol that your body cannot absorb. Your body has to go into defense mode to get rid of the alcohol. Because the alcohol is like a poison. It rejects it. Alcohol is also highly addictive and it will make you desire to have more of it. If one falls into alcoholism, the damage to their body and or their damage towards others is horrifying. The risk is too great to play with this deadly snake.

Also, the Bible gives many warnings against alcohol, as well. Such passages would not exist if alcohol was this harmless and fun living thing for all families to enjoy.

The 20 Warnings Against Alcohol in the Bible:

20 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

17) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

18) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

19) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

20) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think people try to change the definition of the word "sober" based upon their likes and interests. For did you not look up the word "sober" with the thinking it would support your view on alcohol? However, the origin of the word "sober" has been established.

sober (adj.)

mid-14c., "moderate in desires or actions, temperate, restrained," especially "abstaining from strong drink," also "calm, quiet, not overcome by emotion," from Old French sobre "decent; sober" (12c.), from Latin sobrius "not drunk, temperate, moderate, sensible," from a variant of se- "without" (see se-) + ebrius "drunk," of unknown origin. Meaning "not drunk at the moment" is from late 14c.; also "appropriately solemn, serious, not giddy."

Related: Soberly; soberness. Sobersides "sedate, serious-minded person" is recorded from 1705.

sober (v.)

late 14c., "reduce to a quiet condition" (transitive), from sober (adj.). Meaning "render grave or serious" is from 1726. Intransitive sense of "become sober" (since 1847 often with up) is from 1820. Related: Sobered; sobering.


Source:
sober | Origin and meaning of sober by Online Etymology Dictionary

One cannot be as serious minded as if they were when they were not intoxicated with alcohol. Even one drink takes away a person's ability to think seriously or critically. Scientific studies have shown that men's critical thinking and reaction time is slowed or prone to error when solving problems.

It is also a medical fact that alcohol gives you only empty calories and your body fights to pass the alcohol that your body cannot absorb. Your body has to go into defense mode to get rid of the alcohol. Because the alcohol is like a poison. It rejects it. Alcohol is also highly addictive and it will make you desire to have more of it. If one falls into alcoholism, the damage to their body and or their damage towards others is horrifying. The risk is too great to play with this deadly snake.

Also, the Bible gives many warnings against alcohol, as well. Such passages would not exist if alcohol was this harmless and fun living thing for all families to enjoy.

The 21 Warnings Against Alcohol in the Bible:

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

And some people try to ignore the fuller contexts and focal points of statements which are embedded within Scripture because they don't want to do the painstaking work of applying robust hermeneutical considerations ...

Most of the verses in the list you've just listed don't imply much in the way of complete abstinence from alcohol. What they DO infer [if read in their actual context while being attentive to the direction of their focal references] is that people are not wise when they let substances, alcohol in this case, to impel them towards acts of sin. But basically none of these verses implies that it is sinful for a person to have a single, strong glass of wine and, in a relaxed state, enjoy the company of family or further participate in special occasions.

It would be a sin to become so intoxicated that one begins to act like a complete idiot, say things that are unbecoming, and begin to act out with impropriety, or start arguments or a fight, or become abusive to one's wife or children, or irresponsibly drive a vehicle while being influenced, for instance. But to just sit there in a safe, composed, relaxed state after one (maybe two drinks, depending upon one's body weight) isn't a sin. Usually, the real problem isn't the alcohol--it's that some people (lots of people) can't seem to JUST have one or two drinks, stop, and enjoy the day or evening. NO. They have yet another. Then another. And yet another. And maybe even one more after that. And then they wonder why they end up divorced, or in jail ... or in the bed of someone they've never really met ... the next morning. [Some even go so far as to poison themselves to death with it... ] And it is these latter immoral outcomes that the Bible is warning us against.

It's just a bit shortsighted of you to list these verses out the way you do and not really "read" them in full. I hate to say this, but your interpretations of these various verses equate more to eisegesis than they they to actual exegesis. Tell me this, what books on ether biblical Exegesis and/or Hermenuetics have you studied thus far? I'm just wondering.

 

[Tetra]

Because most Christians do not obey the following passage.

15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:15-17).

Christians right now can read the medical studies I provided on the dangers of alcohol with even moderate consumption. But they don't want to hear it.

So you're saying it's not possible for you to be incorrect, rather, everyone else is wrong?

 

[Philip_B]

Because most Christians do not obey the following passage.

15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:15-17).

Christians right now can read the medical studies I provided on the dangers of alcohol with even moderate consumption. But they don't want to hear it.

John 3:16
‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
​

oremus Bible Browser : John 3:16

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you're saying it's not possible for you to be incorrect, rather, everyone else is wrong?

I have been known to make mistakes before on certain verses, and I was willing to openly admit my mistake before others. But the truth that has been revealed to me on this topic is not just on one verse alone, etc. Many verses and truths from the real world are in support of what I am saying.

Why don't you start by proving me wrong by addressing the 20 warnings against the alcoholic beverage itself in Post #325.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 3:16
‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
​

oremus Bible Browser : John 3:16

John 3:16 does not undo the truth spoke of in 1 John 2:15-17. They breath in harmony together.

 

[Philip_B]

John 3:16 does not undo the truth spoke of in 1 John 2:15-17. They breath in harmony together.

I am sorry if you thought I was being adversarial. I simply declared the truth of scripture, which is profoundly more complex than a simple dualistic world hating approach taken by some. I was in no way implying that you held such a view, simply ensuring that the balance was ever present. God does not hate the world, though clearly not everything that happens in it is in accord with his will, but like any parent we cop the good with the bad and love them anyway.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And some people try to ignore the fuller contexts and focal points of statements which are embedded within Scripture because they don't want to do the painstaking work of applying robust hermeneutical considerations ...

Most of the verses in the list you've just listed don't imply much in the way of complete abstinence from alcohol. What they DO infer [if read in their actual context while being attentive to the direction of their focal references] is that people are not wise when they let substances, alcohol in this case, to impel them towards acts of sin. But basically none of these verses implies that it is sinful for a person to have a single, strong glass of wine and, in a relaxed state, enjoy the company of family or further participate in special occasions.

It would be a sin to become so intoxicated that one begins to act like a complete idiot, say things that are unbecoming, and begin to act out with impropriety, or start arguments or a fight, or become abusive to one's wife or children, or irresponsibly drive a vehicle while being influenced, for instance. But to just sit there in a safe, composed, relaxed state after one (maybe two drinks, depending upon one's body weight) isn't a sin. Usually, the real problem isn't the alcohol--it's that some people (lots of people) can't seem to JUST have one or two drinks, stop, and enjoy the day or evening. NO. They have yet another. Then another. And yet another. And maybe even one more after that. And then they wonder why they end up divorced, or in jail ... or in the bed of someone they've never really met ... the next morning. [Some even go so far as to poison themselves to death with it... ] And it is these latter immoral outcomes that the Bible is warning us against.

It's just a bit shortsighted of you to list these verses out the way you do and not really "read" them in full. I hate to say this, but your interpretations of these various verses equate more to eisegesis than they they to actual exegesis. Tell me this, what books on ether biblical Exegesis and/or Hermenuetics have you studied thus far? I'm just wondering.

But drunkenness starts with one harmless drink or even sometimes drinking socially.

Try reading this article here:

Return to Moderate Drinking is Still a Lie

In other words, if it is all about your own control, then people should have no problem to returning to a lifestyle of drinking moderately.

Besides, there are dangers even in moderate drinking which would include your safety, health, and the protection of others.

As for the word "sober": We see the word "sober" tied with the words "not given to wine" in this passage here.

2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;" (1 Timothy 3:2-3).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am sorry if you thought I was being adversarial. I simply declared the truth of scripture, which is profoundly more complex than a simple dualistic world hating approach taken by some. I was in no way implying that you held such a view, simply ensuring that the balance was ever present. God does not hate the world, though clearly not everything that happens in it is in accord with his will, but like any parent we cop the good with the bad and love them anyway.

Yes, God so loves the world according to John 3:16, but Scripture also says that God is angry with the wicked every day, too (See Psalms 7:11). Both verses are true. How can God hate the wicked and yet love them? By the fact that while God is angered by wicked men's actions, He sent His Son to display love towards them (in order to save them).

As for preaching and correcting according to God's Word and love:

Well, it is written,

"Open rebuke is better than secret love." (Proverbs 27:5).

Why? Because if the bridge was out up ahead, I would love that person enough to warn them instead of remaining silent. The person in the car might think I am trying to cause them heart ache by going around the long way. But indeed I am merely telling them the truth in love because I care for their soul.

Alcohol does nothing but to destroy the body.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But drunkenness starts with one harmless drink or even sometimes drinking socially.

Try reading this article here:

Return to Moderate Drinking is Still a Lie

In other words, if it is all about your own control, then people should have no problem to returning to a lifestyle of drinking moderately.

Besides, there are dangers even in moderate drinking which would include your safety, health, and the protection of others.

As for the word "sober": We see the word "sober" tied with the words "not given to wine" in this passage here.

2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;" (1 Timothy 3:2-3).

I asked for an answer to a question, and I'm not seeing that here. Instead, I see more makeshift, and basically bad, exegesis on your part, Jason. I know you can do better.

The word "sober" in this verse you've quote from 1 Timothy 3 isn't directly connected to the drinking of wine. Rather, the term νηφάλιον (nēphalion), as used here, implies a man of reasonable emotional and ideological composure, and one who knows his limits. It can also be translated as "temperate,"; the KJV translates it as "vigilant." This would be a man who applies realism and wisdom and who doesn't fly off the handle when things don't go his way due to some strong opinion he has about the world. All of this would refer back to being "blameless," as well as inferring one who would handle wine in a minimal, controlled kind of way. It might also imply that he thinks it best, even if not a requirement, to abstain from strong drink so as to avoid at least the appearance of possible foolishness on his part...since he is a leader and all eyes will be on him.

But to say that sober here is simply a redundancy of "not given to wine" isn't what Paul in this passage is saying.

 

[Tetra]

I have been known to make mistakes before on certain verses, and I was willing to openly admit my mistake before others. But the truth that has been revealed to me on this topic is not just on one verse alone, etc. Many verses and truths from the real world are in support of what I am saying.

Why don't you start by proving me wrong by addressing the 20 warnings against the alcoholic beverage itself in Post #325.

Sure... your position is teetotalism, not a single verse you quoted supports that position for the average Christian, nor does it suggest it's sinful to consume wine.

We should first note that every verse being quoted is taken out of context:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

How does this prove the average Christian today shouldn't have wine, or that the consumption of wine is a sin?

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

This verse in context starting at Deuteronomy 32:32
"Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah. Their grapes are filled with poison, and their clusters with bitterness." (NIV)

Is this really about wine consumption?

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

The issue here is that Eli thought Hannah was drunk. “How long are you going to stay drunk? Put away your wine.” (NIV) How does this prove the average Christian today shouldn't have wine, or that the consumption of wine is a sin?

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

... therefore wine is bad? Based on this logic you would also need to say bread is bad... since it says "For they eat the bread of wickedness..." at the beginning of the verse. Why is bread okay but somehow wine is bad?

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

Commentaries suggest that this is in reference to being drunk:
Proverbs 20 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

We see a very similar verse in Hosea 7:5 which is in reference to being "inflamed" with wine "On the day of the festival of our king the princes become inflamed with wine, and he joins hands with the mockers." (NIV)

Why does this mean no one should drink wine?

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

I'll deal with all of these at the same time. You're missing the entire beginning of the passage (I can't help but think that was intentional), this is actually about addiction.

The entire passage, it's actually quite sad:
29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? 30 Those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine. 31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly! 32 In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper. 33 Your eyes will see strange sights, and your mind will imagine confusing things. 34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas, lying on top of the rigging. 35 “They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt! They beat me, but I don’t feel it! When will I wake up so I can find another drink?” (NIV)

This has nothing to do with people who have an occasional glass of wine, nice try.

Matthew Henry's commentary on this passage:
Proverbs 23 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

No, alcohol does't, excess of alcohol does. This is about the drunkenness of kings... funny how you skipped verses 6 - 7 though:
"6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter. 7 Let him drink and forget his poverty And remember his trouble no more." (NIV)

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

Here the king tried to see if getting drunk would make him happy, but it didn't. I don't get what your point is here... no one here is saying to use wine to make yourself "happy".

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

Are you miss quoting intentionally??? Dude, please to not intentionally misrepresent what the Bible says. The verse doesn't say leaders who do not "drink". It says:

"Blessed is the land whose king is of noble birth and whose princes eat at a proper time-- for strength and not for drunkenness." (NIV)

"Blessed art thou, O land, when thy king is the son of nobles, and thy princes eat in due season, for strength, and not for drunkenness!" (KJV)

This is not about having a "drink" and you know it.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

Again this is about drunkenness, Matthew Henry's Commentary:
Isaiah 5 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

They were blessed for obeying, not specifically denying themselves wine... to quote the Bible:

"6 But they answered, “We will drink no wine, for Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, commanded us, ‘You shall not drink wine, neither you nor your sons forever. 7 You shall not build a house; you shall not sow seed; you shall not plant or have a vineyard; but you shall live in tents all your days, that you may live many days in the land where you sojourn.’ " (NIV)

By your logic we shouldn't build homes either, we should all live in tents.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

Daniel also didn't eat the food the king gave him and was "blessed".

"8 But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way." (NIV)

Was the point of this story really about the wine, or are you taking it out of context?

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.

Matthew Henry's Commentary:
"Or we may take it as a distinct sentence, containing a great truth which we see confirmed by every day’s experience, that drunkenness and uncleanness are sins which besot and infatuate men, weaken and enfeeble them. They take away both the understanding and the courage."
Hosea 4 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

16) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

17) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

18) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

19) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

20) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

I'm not going to go through this verse by verse, but suggest here it has nothing to do with the average Christian having a glass of wine.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I said before, I really am not interested in trying to convince minds that are closed on this subject. If folks here want to make alcohol into something that it is not, you are free to do that. Just know that you will have to explain yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ for your belief one day. For if you endorse the use of a deadly drug, and another believer looks up to your words on this matter and they then start to drink and they get caught up into the addiction of alcoholism (that is bad), you will be in part to blame for that.

This is why teaching to abstain from addictive drugs is always the best choice.
Oh, and by the way. Alcoholic beverages are a drug. They offer empty calories and your body has to fight to get rid of the toxin known as alcohol.

In any event, may God bless you all this fine day;
And may you please be well.

 

[Tetra]

As I said before, I really am not interested in trying to convince minds that are closed on this subject. If folks here want to make alcohol into something that it is not, you are free to do that. Just know that you will have to explain yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ for your belief one day. For if you endorse the use of a deadly drug, and another believer looks up to your words on this matter and they then start to drink and they get caught up into the addiction of alcoholism (that is bad), you will be in part to blame for that.

This is why teaching to abstain from addictive drugs is always the best choice.
Oh, and by the way. Alcoholic beverages are a drug. They offer empty calories and your body has to fight to get rid of the toxin known as alcohol.

In any event, may God bless you all this fine day;
And may you please be well.

So wait, you asked me for a verse by verse breakdown, and so I gave you one. I think it was a fair breakdown as well, when I think I could have been far more harsh in my criticism. Instead you attempt to tell me it's due to my "mind" being "closed". Are you serious?? Most Christian's on this forum accuse me of being too open minded. You literally tried to tell me people shouldn't drink alcohol due to Jeremiah 35:2-14... this isn't about my mind being closed, this is about not making any sense man.

I rarely have a beer, I could take it or leave it... I'm honestly all ears to an alternative argument. But your strongest verses are intentionally taken cut of context, have nothing to do with drinking alcohol, or illogical.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sure... your position is teetotalism,

Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, I will indulge you this one time with a proper reply in return; But I am not going to keep going back and forth with you on it because I know you prefer alcohol as your worldview or your personal slant when reading the Scriptures. For did you ever once consider that maybe you could be biased towards alcohol because you enjoy it?

As for your Teetotalism statement:

Well, I believe that the Christian can either partake in grape juice or possibly the Israelite wine which was a wine that was diluted with water (Whereby it is very low in alcoholic content). I know the Israelite drank wine that was mixed with three parts water, but it is not so clear that the Christian followed this Jewish custom because of the change of certain commands within the covenants (Hebrews 7:12). The Lord's Supper practice is strongly suggestive that it was grape juice because it was called the "fruit of the vine" (See Matthew 26:29). Alcoholic wine is not the fruit of the vine but it is the decomposed fruit of the vine. Alcoholic wine would be more like the excess remains after yeast ate the fruit of the vine.

not a single verse you quoted supports that position for the average Christian, nor does it suggest it's sinful to consume wine.

Yes it does. You simply do not want to see it.
Currently, you have on alcoholic glasses when reading the Scriptures;
So your viewpoint on Scripture is from that slant or bias.
I will show you why.

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

We should first note that every verse being quoted is taken out of context:

How does this prove the average Christian today shouldn't have wine, or that the consumption of wine is a sin?

Well, first, technically the first piece of Scripture I quoted is not a single verse, but it is a passage instead. Second, you essentially tell me that my quote from Scripture is taken out of context but you did not show me why. You simply asked a question instead. Three, to answer your question: God provided a way of miracles for their survival. He made it so that their clothes would not perish off their backs, and he fed them with manna from Heaven, and they drank from the "Rock" (Jesus) that followed them (1 Corinthians 10:4). The not drinking of wine is similar to a Nazarite vow. They were to be holy and separate. Christians are to be separate, especially from unbelievers and idolatry (2 Corinthians 6:17). Believers are called to be holy (1 Peter 1:16). God's miraculous provisions no doubt played a role in their knowing that their Lord is God. But the passage also says they did not have the normal bread and wine, either. This also was a part of knowing God, as well. In the New Testament, we are told that if we keep His commandments we can have an assurance in knowing Him (1 John 2:3). For he that says he knows Him (Jesus) and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). Keeping God's commands makes one holy and separate from the rest of the world.

Ephesians 5:25-27 says,
25 “even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

Titus 2:14 says,
“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

This verse in context starting at Deuteronomy 32:32
"Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah. Their grapes are filled with poison, and their clusters with bitterness." (NIV)

Is this really about wine consumption?

First, I was referring to Deuteronomy 32:33 (along with Deuteronomy 32:14) and not Deuteronomy 32:32. Second, metaphors only have meaning if they are based off of something that is true. The worship of God and or the Rock (Jesus) is likened unto the pure blood of the grape. The pure blood of the grape is grape juice and not intoxicating wine. Alcohol is not pure juice or pure blood of any kind of grape that is squeezed or crushed because it is a process of decay. Those who worship false gods and idols is likened unto the wine being the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps (See again Deuteronomy 32:33). This is clearly the picture we get when looking at intoxicating wine. The addiction, broken families, and death toll from alcoholic wine should tell you that is indeed like a venom from snakes. So the metaphor is using real world things that we know are true. This helps us to understand what the metaphor is saying.

1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

The issue here is that Eli thought Hannah was drunk. “How long are you going to stay drunk? Put away your wine.” (NIV) How does this prove the average Christian today shouldn't have wine, or that the consumption of wine is a sin?

Hannah is an example of motherhood. She refrained from drinking wine. This is a good thing because we now know that drinking strong wine for mothers can hurt the baby. Surely, it is not a coincidence we see this story in the Bible confirm a medical fact.

Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

... therefore wine is bad? Based on this logic you would also need to say bread is bad... since it says "For they eat the bread of wickedness..." at the beginning of the verse. Why is bread okay but somehow wine is bad?

Just as there is a good wine and a bad wine mentioned in the Bible, the Bible also talks a bad bread and a good bread, too. For the Scriptures refer to how leavened bread is sinful and unleavened bread is not sinful during the Passover time within the Old Covenant. What makes the bread bad is the yeast. Yeast is a picture or symbol of sin. We see yeast is the active ingredient used to make alcoholic drinks. In fact, cutting out (or reducing greatly) a person's leavened bread consumption within their their normal every day intake will help them to lose weight, and feel more healthier.

Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

Commentaries suggest that this is in reference to being drunk:
Proverbs 20 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

We see a very similar verse in Hosea 7:5 which is in reference to being "inflamed" with wine "On the day of the festival of our king the princes become inflamed with wine, and he joins hands with the mockers." (NIV)

Why does this mean no one should drink wine?

Because (strong alcoholic) wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging. It is has been medically proven that people can get highly addicted to alcohol and they cannot stop drinking it. The substance or drug mocks the life God gave them because they can easily fall into addiction because of it. Even with moderate use of wine, it can destroy a person's health. The substance or drug is raging in the sense that it can seek to take control of a person's life. It rages to take control of you and make you do crazy things. Those who are deceived by wine are not wise. In fact, I am sure many alcoholics did not intend to be alcoholics. They were just like everyone else here who thought they could control their moderate drinking. But Scripture says the heart is deceitful.

I'll deal with all of these at the same time. You're missing the entire beginning of the passage (I can't help but think that was intentional), this is actually about addiction.

The entire passage, it's actually quite sad:
29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? 30 Those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine. 31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly! 32 In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper. 33 Your eyes will see strange sights, and your mind will imagine confusing things. 34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas, lying on top of the rigging. 35 “They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt! They beat me, but I don’t feel it! When will I wake up so I can find another drink?” (NIV)

This has nothing to do with people who have an occasional glass of wine, nice try.

Matthew Henry's commentary on this passage:
Proverbs 23 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

You are missing the point. It is describing what the beverage is like and what it can do to a person.

Proverbs 23:31 says,
"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright."

Now, it is true that the previous verses are talking about the drunkard. But then we get to verse 31 and we see that it tells the drunkard to not even look upon whine when it is red and when it moves itself aright. This is very telling. Why tell the drunkard to not look at wine when it is red when the problem (according to you) is not alcohol itself? It also says the condition of the wine, as well. This lets us know that there is a different kind of wine besides wine that is red in the cup and it moves itself aright. We are seeing a truth expressed here that is talking about a particular kind of wine that can lead a person to drunkenness. The drunkard is told not to look at this kind of wine. But where in this Scripture does it say that a person who is not drunk can look upon this wine? The person who tarries at wine does so not because he planned it. It started with one drink. Then life got hard and he desired to forget his sorrows by drinking.

]7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

Same truth is expressed here. While the drunkard is in view, the truth of Proverbs 23:32 still remains true for all people. It still can bite a person like a serpent and sting them like an adder by surprise. There are many testimonies of alcoholics who did not plan on being an alcoholic. Many could simply just not stop.

]8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

Proverbs 23:35 says that the drunkard seeks this beverage yet again (even after all the trouble it causes him). Why? Because it is habit forming. It is addictive. Even people who drink moderately desire to have it regularly.

I used to drink alcohol maybe once or twice a year (knowing very full well of the dangers of alcohol). But what if life got hard for me? Is it not possible I could turn to booze to make me forget life's problems? I don't know that answer personally, but I know it is a reality for many. I remember one time, a friend (Who said he was Christian) got me to drink 151. This stuff is pure destruction to your body. You cannot drink this moderately and live very long.

Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

No, alcohol does't, excess of alcohol does. This is about the drunkenness of kings... funny how you skipped verses 6 - 7 though:
"6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter. 7 Let him drink and forget his poverty And remember his trouble no more." (NIV)

First, verses 4-5 is about kings; And Jesus is a king by the way.
We are also called kings and priests. So this should tell you that we cannot have wine according to verses 4-5. For we are to imitate Christ and follow in His steps.

Second, quoting verses 6-7 does not help you in any way.
It is talking about giving wine to those who perish (i.e. to help people who are in extreme pain and are about to die; For the alcohol can numb their pain). Alcohol can also help the person who had anguish to the point of being an extreme mental case. Today we have drugs to help people who have mental problems. Back then, all they had was alcohol. But surely this is not the solution today (Seeing we are under a New Covenant with new commands and we have now advanced in regards to medicine). But verses 6-7 is not talking about kings. It is in reference to those who are poor (see verse 7) and the suffering.

Here the king tried to see if getting drunk would make him happy, but it didn't. I don't get what your point is here... no one here is saying to use wine to make yourself "happy".

Not true.

When I said, "Wait. Did you just say drinkin alcohol is fun?"

You said: "Yes it is, just like eating food is fun... is fun bad?"

Anyways, I gotta run, but I pray that you will consider the truth of what Scripture says instead of what you prefer it to say so as defend your enjoyment or fun in alcohol (Which is a drug).

 

[Tetra]

Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, I will indulge you this one time with a proper reply in return; But I am not going to keep going back and forth with you on it because I know you prefer alcohol as your worldview or your personal slant when reading the Scriptures. For did you ever once consider that maybe you could be biased towards alcohol because you enjoy it?

As for your Teetotalism statement:

Well, I believe that the Christian can either partake in grape juice or possibly the Israelite wine which was a wine that was diluted with water (Whereby it is very low in alcoholic content). I know the Israelite drank wine that was mixed with three parts water, but it is not so clear that the Christian followed this Jewish custom because of the change of certain commands within the covenants (Hebrews 7:12). The Lord's Supper practice is strongly suggestive that it was grape juice because it was called the "fruit of the vine" (See Matthew 26:29). Alcoholic wine is not the fruit of the vine but it is the decomposed fruit of the vine. Alcoholic wine would be more like the excess remains after yeast ate the fruit of the vine.



Yes it does. You simply do not want to see it.
Currently, you have on alcoholic glasses when reading the Scriptures;
So your viewpoint on Scripture is from that slant or bias.
I will show you why.




Well, first, technically the first piece of Scripture I quoted is not a single verse, but it is a passage instead. Second, you essentially tell me that my quote from Scripture is taken out of context but you did not show me why. You simply asked a question instead. Three, to answer your question: God provided a way of miracles for their survival. He made it so that their clothes would not perish off their backs, and he fed them with manna from Heaven, and they drank from the "Rock" (Jesus) that followed them (1 Corinthians 10:4). The not drinking of wine is similar to a Nazarite vow. They were to be holy and separate. Christians are to be separate, especially from unbelievers and idolatry (2 Corinthians 6:17). Believers are called to be holy (1 Peter 1:16). God's miraculous provisions no doubt played a role in their knowing that their Lord is God. But the passage also says they did not have the normal bread and wine, either. This also was a part of knowing God, as well. In the New Testament, we are told that if we keep His commandments we can have an assurance in knowing Him (1 John 2:3). For he that says he knows Him (Jesus) and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). Keeping God's commands makes one holy and separate from the rest of the world.

Ephesians 5:25-27 says,
25 “even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

Titus 2:14 says,
“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”



First, I was referring to Deuteronomy 32:33 (along with Deuteronomy 32:14) and not Deuteronomy 32:32. Second, metaphors only have meaning if they are based off of something that is true. The worship of God and or the Rock (Jesus) is likened unto the pure blood of the grape. The pure blood of the grape is grape juice and not intoxicating wine. Alcohol is not pure juice or pure blood of any kind of grape that is squeezed or crushed because it is a process of decay. Those who worship false gods and idols is likened unto the wine being the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps (See again Deuteronomy 32:33). This is clearly the picture we get when looking at intoxicating wine. The addiction, broken families, and death toll from alcoholic wine should tell you that is indeed like a venom from snakes. So the metaphor is using real world things that we know are true. This helps us to understand what the metaphor is saying.



Hannah is an example of motherhood. She refrained from drinking wine. This is a good thing because we now know that drinking strong wine for mothers can hurt the baby. Surely, it is not a coincidence we see this story in the Bible confirm a medical fact.



Just as there is a good wine and a bad wine mentioned in the Bible, the Bible also talks a bad bread and a good bread, too. For the Scriptures refer to how leavened bread is sinful and unleavened bread is not sinful during the Passover time within the Old Covenant. What makes the bread bad is the yeast. Yeast is a picture or symbol of sin. We see yeast is the active ingredient used to make alcoholic drinks. In fact, cutting out (or reducing greatly) a person's leavened bread consumption within their their normal every day intake will help them to lose weight, and feel more healthier.




Because (strong alcoholic) wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging. It is has been medically proven that people can get highly addicted to alcohol and they cannot stop drinking it. The substance or drug mocks the life God gave them because they can easily fall into addiction because of it. Even with moderate use of wine, it can destroy a person's health. The substance or drug is raging in the sense that it can seek to take control of a person's life. It rages to take control of you and make you do crazy things. Those who are deceived by wine are not wise. In fact, I am sure many alcoholics did not intend to be alcoholics. They were just like everyone else here who thought they could control their moderate drinking. But Scripture says the heart is deceitful.



You are missing the point. It is describing what the beverage is like and what it can do to a person.

Proverbs 23:31 says,
"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright."

Now, it is true that the previous verses are talking about the drunkard. But then we get to verse 31 and we see that it tells the drunkard to not even look upon whine when it is red and when it moves itself aright. This is very telling. Why tell the drunkard to not look at wine when it is red when the problem (according to you) is not alcohol itself? It also says the condition of the wine, as well. This lets us know that there is a different kind of wine besides wine that is red in the cup and it moves itself aright. We are seeing a truth expressed here that is talking about a particular kind of wine that can lead a person to drunkenness. The drunkard is told not to look at this kind of wine. But where in this Scripture does it say that a person who is not drunk can look upon this wine? The person who tarries at wine does so not because he planned it. It started with one drink. Then life got hard and he desired to forget his sorrows by drinking.



Same truth is expressed here. While the drunkard is in view, the truth of Proverbs 23:32 still remains true for all people. It still can bite a person like a serpent and sting them like an adder by surprise. There are many testimonies of alcoholics who did not plan on being an alcoholic. Many could simply just not stop.



Proverbs 23:35 says that the drunkard seeks this beverage yet again (even after all the trouble it causes him). Why? Because it is habit forming. It is addictive. Even people who drink moderately desire to have it regularly.

I used to drink alcohol maybe once or twice a year (knowing very full well of the dangers of alcohol). But what if life got hard for me? Is it not possible I could turn to booze to make me forget life's problems? I don't know that answer personally, but I know it is a reality for many. I remember one time, a friend (Who said he was Christian) got me to drink 151. This stuff is pure destruction to your body. You cannot drink this moderately and live very long.



First, verses 4-5 is about kings; And Jesus is a king by the way.
We are also called kings and priests. So this should tell you that we cannot have wine according to verses 4-5. For we are to imitate Christ and follow in His steps.

Second, quoting verses 6-7 does not help you in any way.
It is talking about giving wine to those who perish (i.e. to help people who are in extreme pain and are about to die; For the alcohol can numb their pain). Alcohol can also help the person who had anguish to the point of being an extreme mental case. Today we have drugs to help people who have mental problems. Back then, all they had was alcohol. But surely this is not the solution today (Seeing we are under a New Covenant with new commands and we have now advanced in regards to medicine). But verses 6-7 is not talking about kings. It is in reference to those who are poor (see verse 7) and the suffering.



Not true.

When I said, "Wait. Did you just say drinkin alcohol is fun?"

You said: "Yes it is, just like eating food is fun... is fun bad?"

Anyways, I gotta run, but I pray that you will consider the truth of what Scripture says instead of what you prefer it to say so as defend your enjoyment or fun in alcohol (Which is a drug).

Honestly man, all I can do is encourage you to study more of the Bible, and learn to read it in context. The reason the vast majority disagree with you isn't because they like alcohol, it's because you're wrong.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I asked for an answer to a question, and I'm not seeing that here. Instead, I see more makeshift, and basically bad, exegesis on your part, Jason. I know you can do better.

The word "sober" in this verse you've quote from 1 Timothy 3 isn't directly connected to the drinking of wine. Rather, the term νηφάλιον (nēphalion), as used here, implies a man of reasonable emotional and ideological composure, and one who knows his limits. It can also be translated as "temperate,"; the KJV translates it as "vigilant." This would be a man who applies realism and wisdom and who doesn't fly off the handle when things don't go his way due to some strong opinion he has about the world. All of this would refer back to being "blameless," as well as inferring one who would handle wine in a minimal, controlled kind of way. It might also imply that he thinks it best, even if not a requirement, to abstain from strong drink so as to avoid at least the appearance of possible foolishness on his part...since he is a leader and all eyes will be on him.

But to say that sober here is simply a redundancy of "not given to wine" isn't what Paul in this passage is saying.

First, 1 Timothy 3:1-3 clearly says that a bishop should not be given to wine and he should be sober. That would be like saying, Bob is not given to cats and he is a dog person. This would mean Bob does not like cats and he prefers dogs instead.

You may or may not be aware of this or not, but there is usually more than one truth that can be expressed in Scripture. Yes, there is primary meaning in God's Word, but there is also a secondary meaning or truth that can be expressed from Scripture. Take for example "Messianic prophecies." The point I am getting at is that while Scripture does tell us to be sober minded with in regards to other matters, this would also include to be sober minded in reference to alcohol because one cannot be sober minded on other matters if they are drinking. Drinking alcohol and saying you are still sober is an oxymoron. For would you fly in a plane if you knew the pilot and co-pilot were both drinking? Surely not.

Be sober.

It's what the Bible says.