Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

[☦Marius☦]

One cannot have seriousness of thought as good as they would if they were sober. Alcohol effects the brain and causes a person not to react and or think as well.

Speak for yourself. You admitted you were a lightweight. Some of us have to drink quite a bit before we even start to feel anything.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is occult level analysis of sacred numbers, and has no place within actual discussion.

Actually, the Bible actually tells you to count numbers as a part of wisdom. See Revelation 13:18 and Ecclesiastes 7:25, Ecclesiastes 7:27. In fact, Revelation 13 talks about the number of the beast (Which is 666). Is it a coincidence that the same chapter (Revelation 13) that talks about counting numbers as a part of wisdom mentions 666 also just happens to be mentioned in the 666th chapter of the Bible (that also mentions counting numbers as a part of wisdom, i.e. Ecclesiastes 7)? For Ecclesiastes 7 is the 666th chapter of the Bible.

This is not the same thing as occult numerology that seeks to use numbers to determine the future or guide our major life decisions, etc. This is wrong. Biblical numerics are in God's Word primarily to show us that His Word is divine in origin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Speak for yourself. You admitted you were a lightweight. Some of us have to drink quite a bit before we even start to feel anything.

Logic dictates that you were not as sober as you once were when you did not drink (regardless if you do not feel that you notice any difference). The alcohol is already attacking your brain and reasoning functions even with the very first glass.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

Yes.

 

[Philip_B]

Alcohol effects the brain and causes a person not to react and or think as well.

I trust you mean AFFECTS - the meaning of effects would seem counter the rest of your arguments in this thread.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Actually, the Bible actually tells you to count numbers as a part of wisdom. See Revelation 13:18 and Ecclesiastes 7:25, Ecclesiastes 7:27. In fact, Revelation 13 talks about the number of the beast (Which is 666). Is it a coincidence that the same chapter (Revelation 13) that talks about counting numbers as a part of wisdom mentions 666 also just happens to be mentioned in the 666th chapter of the Bible (that also mentions counting numbers as a part of wisdom, i.e. Ecclesiastes 7)? For Ecclesiastes 7 is the 666th chapter of the Bible.

This is the same thing as occult numerology that seeks to use numbers to determine the future or guide our major life decisions, etc. Biblical numerics are in God's Word primarily to show us that His Word is divine in origin.

Is against alcohol, but it ok with divination through numbers... Whatever floats your boat man.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I trust you mean AFFECTS - the meaning of effects would seem counter the rest of your arguments in this thread.

I am not a grammar expert. But I looked up the differences between affect and effect and now I have a basic idea of how to use them now. Thanks for catching the grammar error (even though it does not really explain the issue or topic at hand though).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is against alcohol, but it ok with divination through numbers... Whatever floats your boat man.

Sorry about that. I forgot to put the word "not" in my post.

But lets be clear about something here. I am NOT into occult divination or occult numerology.

Divination:
Definition:
The practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.

I was trying to say that I do NOT believe in the occult use of numbers (like trying to use numbers to figure out the future, etc.). It is wrong to use numbers to figure out the future. Numbers in the Bible are only there to show that God's Word is supernatural in origin. When I said the word "divine" it was NOT in reference to divining the future. It was in reference to how God's Word is Holy and comes from God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't believe in using numbers to divine the future or the unknown! That is the occult and it is wrong!

 

[☦Marius☦]

Sorry about that. I forgot to put the word "not" in my post.

But lets be clear about something here. I am NOT into occult divination or occult numerology.

Divination:
Definition:
The practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.

I was trying to say that I do NOT believe in the occult use of numbers (like trying to use numbers to figure out the future, etc.). It is wrong to use numbers to figure out the future. Numbers in the Bible are only there to show that God's Word is supernatural in origin. When I said the word "divine" it was NOT in reference to divining the future. It was in reference to how God's Word is Holy and comes from God.

Either way using numbers of a sacred origin is exactly what Occultists do to find "divine" connections throughout the universe. I know this because I used to study and practice the hermetic "arts". Either way what the Bible is referring to when it says numbers are accounted as wisdom is (drum roll)... math. Barely anyone was educated back then so the Bible is encouraging the studying of numbers, just as it tries to teach economic responsibility as well. How can you be economically responsible without knowing basic math? As for the 666, the reason that is significant is not for us to know. Some say 777 is a holy number because the 7th day is the final day of creation, but there is nothing on the Bible on that and therefore should not be looked to much into.

Logic dictates that you were not as sober as you once were when you did not drink (regardless if you do not feel that you notice any difference). The alcohol is already attacking your brain and reasoning functions even with the very first glass.

Ridiculous. Sober in body is not the same as sober in spirit (For the 6th time). Therefore as long as you are not being influenced towards debauchery and can still make decisions, then you are not sinning. You can't say its ok for Timothy to drink wine for medical reasons, and then say wine is also sinful because it influences your brain, otherwise even drinking it for medical reasons would be sinful. You have to go all the way one way, or all the way the other, and to be against it is to say Paul was recommending sin, and that Christ drinking wine (without medical purpose btw) is also sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Either way using numbers of a sacred origin is exactly what Occultists do to find "divine" connections throughout the universe.

No. I do not use numbers outside of God's Word. I only look to what the Bible says about those numbers. The purpose of those numbers is to merely show that God's Word is supernatural in origin. Numbers is not a way of life for me to make decisions or figure out the future. For example: The number 40 has a meaning according to the Bible. It means a "trial." You can either ignore that meaning or you realize that the Lord our God is a God of order and logic and He used numbers within His Word to glorify His own message to us.

I know this because I used to study and practice the hermetic "arts". Either way what the Bible is referring to when it says numbers are accounted as wisdom is (drum roll)... math. Barely anyone was educated back then so the Bible is encouraging the studying of numbers, just as it tries to teach economic responsibility as well. How can you be economically responsible without knowing basic math? As for the 666, the reason that is significant is not for us to know. Some say 777 is a holy number because the 7th day is the final day of creation, but there is nothing on the Bible on that and therefore should not be looked to much into.

You basically are just disagreeing with what the Bible says. The Bible tells us to count numbers as a part of wisdom. Yet, you do not think there is any wisdom in doing so. The number has a meaning. It is the number of a man.

Ridiculous. Sober in body is not the same as sober in spirit (For the 6th time). Therefore as long as you are not being influenced towards debauchery and can still make decisions, then you are not sinning. You can't say its ok for Timothy to drink wine for medical reasons, and then say wine is also sinful because it influences your brain, otherwise even drinking it for medical reasons would be sinful. You have to go all the way one way, or all the way the other, and to be against it is to say Paul was recommending sin, and that Christ drinking wine (without medical purpose btw) is also sin.

There are clauses of exception in the Bible. Under the Old Covenant, one of the commands is: "Do not murder", and yet God commanded the death of certain enemies. The lie from Rahab was not the breaking of the 9th commandment to "bear false witness." She used a strategy that was common in war time against one's enemies. The 9th commandment was in regards to one's fellow Israelite or ally. It was not meant to be towards one's enemies (Back in the OT).

Using alcoholic beverages as a medicine was common in OT times. They did not have the same pain killers we have today. No doubt God would not have a problem in somebody using pain killers if they were in great amounts of pain, but if a person took pain killers for recreational use, then they are attempting to not be "sober minded" under normal circumstances. God does not want us to be influenced or addicted to drugs that destroy us. Using certain medicines temporarily for medical reasons is an entirely different matter.

 

[☦Marius☦]

I do not use numbers outside of God's Word. I only look to what the Bible says about those numbers. The purpose of those numbers is to merely show that God's Word is supernatural in origin. Numbers is not a way of life for me to make decisions or figure out the future. For example: The number 40 has a meaning according to the Bible. It means a "trial." You can either ignore that meaning or you realize that the Lord our God is a God of order and logic and He used numbers within His Word to glorify His own message to us.



You basically are just disagreeing with what the Bible says. The Bible tells us to count numbers as a part of wisdom. Yet, you do not think there is any wisdom in doing so. The number has a meaning. It is the number of a man.



There are clauses of exception in the Bible. Under the Old Covenant, one of the commands is: "Do not murder", and yet God commanded the death of certain enemies. The lie from Rahab was not the breaking of the 9th commandment to "bear false witness." She used a strategy that was common in war time against one's enemies. The 9th commandment was in regards to one's fellow Israelite or ally. It was not meant to be towards one's enemies (Back in the OT).

Using alcoholic beverages as a medicine was common in OT times. They did not have the same pain killers we have today. No doubt God would not have a problem in somebody using pain killers if they were in great amounts of pain, but if a person took pain killers for recreational use, then they are attempting to not be "sober minded" under normal circumstances.

I didn't disagree with anything in the Bible. Did you even fully read my comment? I explained what the passage meant. And I am not aware of any Biblical explanation for what 40 means. If there is a verse please provide because I am genuinly curious. You are taking Bible verses, and twisting them to the meaning you want. To take the verses at face value is to be on the side of the first 1800 years of Christianity, when tee totaling was a very small heresy that occasionally popped up.

 

[☦Marius☦]

No. I do not use numbers outside of God's Word. I only look to what the Bible says about those numbers. The purpose of those numbers is to merely show that God's Word is supernatural in origin. Numbers is not a way of life for me to make decisions or figure out the future. For example: The number 40 has a meaning according to the Bible. It means a "trial." You can either ignore that meaning or you realize that the Lord our God is a God of order and logic and He used numbers within His Word to glorify His own message to us.



You basically are just disagreeing with what the Bible says. The Bible tells us to count numbers as a part of wisdom. Yet, you do not think there is any wisdom in doing so. The number has a meaning. It is the number of a man.



There are clauses of exception in the Bible. Under the Old Covenant, one of the commands is: "Do not murder", and yet God commanded the death of certain enemies. The lie from Rahab was not the breaking of the 9th commandment to "bear false witness." She used a strategy that was common in war time against one's enemies. The 9th commandment was in regards to one's fellow Israelite or ally. It was not meant to be towards one's enemies (Back in the OT).

Using alcoholic beverages as a medicine was common in OT times. They did not have the same pain killers we have today. No doubt God would not have a problem in somebody using pain killers if they were in great amounts of pain, but if a person took pain killers for recreational use, then they are attempting to not be "sober minded" under normal circumstances. God does not want us to be influenced or addicted to drugs that destroy us. Using certain medicines temporarily for medical reasons is an entirely different matter.

So sinning temporarily in old times is ok. Got it. Also you are telling me what God wants outside of the actual Biblical sources. There is no exception clause like what you were referring to for murder. You are just assuming there is to try to prove your point.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't disagree with anything in the Bible. Did you even fully read my comment? I explained what the passage meant. And I am not aware of any Biblical explanation for what 40 means. If there is a verse please provide because I am genuinly curious. You are taking Bible verses, and twisting them to the meaning you want. To take the verses at face value is to be on the side of the first 1800 years of Christianity, when tee totaling was a very small heresy that occasionally popped up.

Noah was under the trial of the storm within the Ark for 40 days and 40 nights. Jesus fasted for 40 days and 40 nights. So one meaning for the number 40 is: "trial." There are tons of examples like this but even in more depth. The numbers are about God glorifying His own Word. They show that.... "yes" ..... God's Word is supernatural in origin and is awesome! Numbers in the Bible in no way guides my every day decisions. They are merely a part of my Bible study sometimes and helps me to see the patterns in His Word (Whereby it makes me in awe of the Scriptures).

If you were to watch Mike Hoggard's Video on the King James Code (Number 7), he is going to present facts to you. Facts that are in the Bible. It is up to you if you want to write off all the numbers in God's Word as being no more valuable than useless background noise.

Watch the video and determine the truth for yourself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So sinning temporarily in old times is ok. Got it.

That is a false accusation. Nowhere did I ever say that sinning temporarily in the Old Testament times was okay. You are merely confused as to what was sin back in OT times.

Also you are telling me what God wants outside of the actual Biblical sources. There is no exception clause like what you were referring to for murder. You are just assuming there is to try to prove your point.

How would you define murder?
Is not murder at the heart the taking of life?
In Old Testament times: What is the difference between the Israelite deciding to take life on their own versus God telling the Israelite to take life?
I see murder as the unlawful taking of life. It goes outside God's commands. Thou shall not kill (Exodus 20:13). Yet, God told the Israelite to kill others.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Noah was under the trial of the storm within the Ark for 40 days and 40 nights. Jesus fasted for 40 days and 40 nights. So one meaning for the number 40 is: "trial." There are tons of examples like this but even in more depth. The numbers are about God glorifying His own Word. They show that.... "yes" ..... God's Word is supernatural in origin and is awesome! Numbers in the Bible in no way guides my every day decisions. They are merely a part of my Bible study sometimes and helps me to see the patterns in His Word (Whereby it makes me in awe of the Scriptures).

If you were to watch Mike Hoggard's Video on the King James Code (Number 7), he is going to present facts to you. Facts that are in the Bible. It is up to you if you want to write off all the numbers in God's Word as being no more valuable than useless background noise.

Watch the video and determine the truth for yourself.

The term "sacred numbers" is a strictly occult term. The fact that you are using them to determine your life choices is a type of divination. You are assuming that by using them in a certain way you can predict an outcome. That is divination. All kinds of people try to use the Bible to discover "new truths". That is why we have a revelation prediction for the end of the world almost every year. Do they ever come true? No. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the word 40 means trials, or at least you are failing to provide verses that back that up. Occultists claim that "the Bible is the greatest occult book ever written". In one way they are right, it is the greatest book ever written on matters not of the natural, of the other. But that does not mean we should not approach it differently then them. There are "white magicians" people who claim to use magic for only good purposes. They use sacred numbers and geometry to try to accomplish their goals. But in the end it is still trying to use the power of God for selfish ends, trying to control God's power which cannot be controlled. Prayer is the only reliable method of obtaining the grace of God.

 

[☦Marius☦]

That is a false accusation. Nowhere did I ever say that sinning temporarily in the Old Testament times was okay. You are merely confused as to what was sin back in OT times.



How would you define murder?
Is not murder the taking of life?
In Old Testament times: What is the difference between the Israelite deciding to take life on their own versus God telling the Israelite to take life?
Is not murder at the heart the taking of life?

Sin does not change. Sin is something that is the opposite of God's nature. Something can not change into a sin, or stop becoming one. Murder is to take a life on your own accord for your own sinful purpose. Warfare is not murder, and you cannot murder if God tells you to, you are then judging, not murdering.

Nowhere does God command someone to drink. Nor is there a verse giving exception- because there is never a verse banning it. Just look at the Quran and the lengths it goes to make drinking banned. The OT has punishments for every sin. If alcohol was truly a sin by itself, then we wouldn't even have to debate it because the message would be so clear.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The term "sacred numbers" is a strictly occult term. The fact that you are using them to determine your life choices is a type of divination.

Nowhere did I use the term "sacred numbers." I also said to you before that I do not use numbers to make my life's choices.

Let me say that one more time.

I am against the use of numbers to make life choices. The numbers in God's Word are merely there to show you that God's Word is supernatural in origin.

You are assuming that by using them in a certain way you can predict an outcome. That is divination.

You are not listening. I do not use numbers to predict any outcome. I am strongly against the occult use of numbers of trying to divine the future.

I repeat. I am against the occult use of numbers of trying to divine the future.

All kinds of people try to use the Bible to discover "new truths". That is why we have a revelation prediction for the end of the world almost every year. Do they ever come true? No. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the word 40 means trials, or at least you are failing to provide verses that back that up. Occultists claim that "the Bible is the greatest occult book ever written". In one way they are right, it is the greatest book ever written on matters not of the natural, of the other. But that does not mean we should not approach it differently then them. There are "white magicians" people who claim to use magic for only good purposes. They use sacred numbers and geometry to try to accomplish their goals. But in the end it is still trying to use the power of God for selfish ends, trying to control God's power which cannot be controlled. Prayer is the only reliable method of obtaining the grace of God.

So you don't think Noah was in a trial within the Ark while it was raining and you don't think Jesus was in a trial by fasting in the wilderness? Okay. If you say so. If you want to be that desperate to not see the meaning behind numbers in God's Word, then you are free to believe that way.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sin does not change. Sin is something that is the opposite of God's nature. Something can not change into a sin, or stop becoming one. Murder is to take a life on your own accord for your own sinful purpose. Warfare is not murder, and you cannot murder if God tells you to, you are then judging, not murdering.

Nowhere does God command someone to drink. Nor is there a verse giving exception- because there is never a verse banning it. Just look at the Quran and the lengths it goes to make drinking banned. The OT has punishments for every sin. If alcohol was truly a sin by itself, then we wouldn't even have to debate it because the message would be so clear.

Exodus simply says.... Do not kill. Yet, God told them to kill their enemies. They are merely following God's commands. If God says stop. Then we stop. If he says go, then we go. But at the heart what makes one different than the other? Not really much at all. It is merely God giving us His approval to carry out judgment. Whereas taking life without His approval is wrong. Well, at least in the OT. At the core, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" was about taking life. At the core, destroying God's enemies was also about taking life. Coming up with fancy words and saying it is entirely different because we slapped the label called murder upon it does not really change it. One is okay because it is under God's approval. The other is not okay because it is not under God's approval. But at the core, both commands are about taking life. One is approved, the other is not.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Nowhere did I use the term "sacred numbers." I also said to you before that I do not use numbers to make my life's choices.

Let me say that one more time.

I am against the use of numbers to make life choices. The numbers in God's Word are merely there to show you that God's Word is supernatural in origin.



You are not listening. I do not use numbers to predict any outcome. I am strongly against the occult use of numbers of trying to divine the future.

I repeat. I am against the occult use of numbers of trying to divine the future.



So you don't think Noah was in a trial within the Ark while it was raining and you don't think Jesus was in a trial by fasting in the wilderness? Okay. If you say so. If you want to be that desperate to not see the meaning behind numbers in God's Word, then you are free to believe that way.

The video you linked has the words "sacred numbers" in the title.

I didn't make any statements about whether or not Noah and Christ went through trials. Christ had to suffer for 3 days in hell. Seems like a trial to me, does the number 3 also mean trial?

What I am saying is you are drawing conclusions from your own understanding.