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Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Tetra, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Who is your God? God, or the desire of the belly?

    1 Corinthians 6:13 KJB - Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body [is] not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

    Philippians 3:19 KJB - Whose end [is] destruction, whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

    Let us begin this study on the "Wines" of the Bible:

    There are two 'kinds' of Wine in the Scriptures [and this will be thoroughly shown from Genesis to Revelation]:

    one of Blessing
    ...and the other of Cursing,

    one of Life
    ...and the other of Death,

    one of Joy/Happiness/Peace
    ...and the other of Woe/sorrow/strife,

    ...and the other of Babylon/Belial/Serpent/Devil/Satan/Dragon.

    This study is primarily not dealing with the "amount" of each wine, for that is the not the main consideration [though it will also be addressed], but rather the primary search is about the very "nature" itself of these two 'kinds' of wines. Thus once the "nature" of them is revealed from scripture, the "amount" discussion becomes easier, for it is obvious that there can never be any "amount" of "wickedness" sanctioned should one prove to be so.

    Let us also ask, at the outset, "Is there a dual use for the word "wine" in common language and is there such a use in the scriptures?" Let us look, and see that the answer is "Yes."

    Well, in demonstrating the accuracy in saying "Yes" to the first half of the question:

    "Wine – noun

    ... [3]. the juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits or plants, used as a beverage, sauce, etc. ..." [Wine, definition] - the definition of wine

    "Wine - noun

    ... something that invigorates or intoxicates ..." [Wine, definition] - Definition of WINE

    And for additional purposes...

    See that word, "intoxicate"? What does the word "intoxicate" mean?

    Word Definition:

    "Intoxicate - transitive verb

    1 poison

    2 a : to excite or stupefy by alcohol or a drug especially to the point where physical and mental control is markedly diminished b : to excite or elate to the point of enthusiasm or frenzy" [Intoxicate, definition] - Definition of INTOXICATE

    Let us also ask a very basic question pertaining to these, "Can a person who is “intoxicated” [“poisons”] by any amount of such 'kind' of “wine” which is “alcoholic” [an Arabic word, to cover the eyes] bring “glory to God” in their drinking?"

    What does the alcohol do to a persons health?

    It impairs brain activity, slows down reactionary time, attacks kidneys, liver, bloodstream, causing cancer, disease, dizziness, loose morality, causing one to forget, relaxes and/or reduces self-control [thus giving up of the will], etc and is one of the major leading causes of death, abuse and misery in the world. Even the smallest amount begins to break down the immune system of the human body [multiple medical research reports can be cited for these facts if needed, though it should be plainly obvious [but for a brief, http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/yourlif....s_N.htm ], also ask those of SADD and MADD].

    However, let us also consider further history of the word "wine":

    Aristotle ["...(384 BC – 322 BC)[1] was a Greek philosopher and polymath, a student of Plato and teacher of Alexander the Great." [Wikipedia - Aristotle - Wikipedia ]] said,

    "...Sweet wine does give off fumes, for it contains fat and behaves like oil. It does not solidify under the influence of cold and it is apt to burn. Really it is not wine at all in spite of its name: for it does not taste like wine and consequently does not inebriate as ordinary wine does. ...

    ...(Wine is a liquid which raises a difficulty: for it is both liable to evaporation and it also thickens; for instance new wine does. The reason is that the word 'wine' is ambiguous and different 'wines' behave in different ways." - Meteorlogica Book IV [English] - The Internet Classics Archive | Meteorology by Aristotle

    Merriam-Websters 1828 Dictionary:

    "MUST, n. [L. mustum; Heb. to ferment.]; New wine; wine pressed from the grape but not fermented." - http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resour....1828=on

    And for many more, consider reading [or checking the references page of] [The Bible Wine Question. The Answer To The 'Unanswerable': Or An Exposure Of The Fallacies Of Three Irish Advocates (Professors Watts, Wallace And Murphy) And Eleven Syrian Witnesses; By Frederick Richard Lees] - The Bible Wine Question

    I can also recommend - Bible Wines, Laws of Fermentation; by William Patton - Bible Wines

    We should seriously ask ourselves, "Does the alcohol bring life or death?"

    Alcohol is merely a legalized [group morality] "intoxicant", another name for 'drug'. For those who advocate that a little or even 'moderate' [who defines that? and for whom?] use is ok, should also perhaps consider the "health benefits" and results of other such "intoxicants"/"drugs": caffeine [ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012....55.html ], nicotine/tobacco [ Nicotine poisoning - Wikipedia ], cannabis [ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health....ar.html ], etc - all destructive.

    This should be sufficient in demonstrating the first half of the "Yes.", but now let us consider in greater detail the second half of the "Yes." answer.

    "...The English word "wine" comes from the Proto-Germanic *winam, an early borrowing from the Latin vinum, "wine" or "(grape) vine", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European stem *win-o- (cf. Hittite: wiyana; Lycian: oino; Ancient Greek: οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek: ϝοῖνος woinos).[5][6]..." [Wikipedia, Wine], and therefore, simply means anything 'of the vine', without reference to anything of alcoholic or fermentation content, although it may include such in one of its definitions.

    "Wines" The Biblical Definitions and Uses

    Now let us consider the second half of that "Yes." There is indeed a dual use of the word "Wine" in scripture, and once this is shown, we can begin to look at the two 'kinds'.

    So, to be as open as possible, and completely true to the scriptures, there will now be listed every known reference of the terminology and even a few associated terms [I apologize if I missed any...please notify me, I would like to add them to my list and consider them in context, thank you. This will not be a brief listing, and so again, I apologize for those not desiring to consider thoroughly. Additionally, Strong's Concordance definitions will be used as a mere reference tool, a help, not as the basis of any given definition, for that we will look contextually in the scripture for any given word.]

    Let us look at the words used in scripture for "wine" and other such items:

    The English word “wine” is found 231 times in 212 verses in the King James Version [other versions/translations/etc are not here in consulted, though that would be quite 'interesting', to see what they have done in this aspect]:

    Genesis 9:21,24, 14:18, 19:32,33,34,35, 27:25,28,37, 49:11,12;

    Exodus 29:40;

    Leviticus 10:9, 23:13;

    Numbers 6:3,20, 15:5,7,10, 18:12, 28:7,14;

    Deuteronomy 7:13, 11:14, 12:17, 14:23,26, 16:13, 18:4, 28:39,51, 29:6, 32:33,38, 33:28;

    Joshua 9:4,13;

    Judges 9:13, 13:4,7,14, 19:19;

    1 Samuel 1:14,15,24, 10:3, 16:20, 25:18,37;

    2 Samuel 6:19, 13:28, 16:1,2;

    2 Kings 18:32;

    1 Chronicles 9:29, 12:40, 16:3, 27:27;

    2 Chronicles 2:10,15, 11:11, 31:5, 32:28;

    Ezra 6:9, 7:22;

    Nehemiah 2:1, 5:11,15,18, 10:37,39, 13:5,12,15;

    Esther 1:7,10, 5:6, 7:2,7,8;

    Job 1:13,18, 32:19;

    Psalms 4:7, 60:3, 75:8, 78:65, 104:15;

    Proverbs 3:10, 4:17, 9:2,5, 20:1, 21:17, 23:30,31, 31:4,6;

    Ecclesiastes 2:3, 9:7, 10:19;

    Song Of Songs [Solomon] 1:2,4, 4:10, 5:1, 7:9, 8:2;

    Isaiah 1:22, 5:11,12,22, 16:10, 22:13, 24:7,9,11, 27:2, 28:1,7, 29:9, 36:17, 49:26, 51:21, 55:1, 56:12, 62:8, 65:8;

    Jeremiah 13:12, 23:9, 25:15, 31:12, 35:2,5,6,8,14, 40:10,12, 48:33, 51:7;

    Lamentations 2:12;

    Ezekiel 27:18, 44:21;

    Daniel 1:5,8,16, 5:1,2,4,23, 10:3;

    Hosea 2:8,9,22, 3:1, 4:11, 7:5,14, 9:2,4, 14:7;

    Joel 1:5,10, 2:19,24, 3:3,18;

    Amos 2:8,12, 5:11, 6:6, 9:13,14;

    Micah 2:11, 6:15;

    Habakkuk 2:5;

    Zephaniah 1:13;

    Haggai 1:11, 2:12;

    Zechariah 9:15,17, 10:7;

    Matthew 9:17;

    Mark 2:22, 15:23;

    Luke 1:15, 5:37,38,39, 7:33, 10:34;

    John 2:3,9,10, 4:46;

    Acts 2:13;

    Romans 14:21;

    Ephesians 5:18;

    1 Timothy 3:3,8, 5:23;

    Titus 1:7, 2:3;

    1 Peter 4:3;

    Revelation 6:6, 14:8,10, 16:19, 17:2, 18:3,13.
    Now let us also look at the more specific uses of certain words and also of others found in the scripture and afterward we can begin to study these out in more detail.

    Wine [ Strong's H3196 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: yayin; Hebrew: יַיִן - the common word translated into the English: "wine". "From an unused root meaning to effervesce” 138 times “wine”, 1 times “banqueting”, 1 times “winebibbers” [ +05433 ]

    Genesis 9:21,24, 14:18, 19:32,33,34,35, 27:25, 49:11,12;

    Exodus 29:40;

    Leviticus 10:9, 23:13;

    Numbers 6:3,4,20, 15:5,7,10, 28:14;

    Deuteronomy 14:26, 28:39, 29:6, 32:33,38;

    Joshua 9:4,13;

    Judges 13:4,7,14, 19:19;

    1 Samuel 1:14,15,24, 10:3, 16:20, 25:18,37;

    2 Samuel 13:28, 16:1,2;

    1 Chronicles 9:29, 12:40, 27:27;

    2 Chronicles 2:10,15, 11:11;

    Nehemiah 2:1, 5:15,18, 13:15;

    Esther 1:7,10, 5:6, 7:2,7,8;

    Job 1:13,18, 32:19;

    Psalms 60:3, 75:8, 78:65, 104:15;

    Proverbs 4:17, 9:2,5, 20:1, 21:17, 23:20,30,31, 31:4,6;

    Ecclesiastes 2:3, 9:7, 10:19;

    Song Of Songs [Solomon] 1:2,4, 2:4, 4:10, 5:1, 7:9, 8:2;

    Isaiah 5:11,12,22, 16:10, 22:13, 24:9,11, 28:1,7, 29:9, 51:21, 55:1, 56:12;

    Jeremiah 13:12, 23:9, 25:15, 35:2,5,6,8,14, 40:10,12, 48:33, 51:7;

    Lamentations 2:12;

    Ezekiel 27:18, 44:21;

    Daniel 1:5,8,16, 10:3;

    Hosea 4:11, 7:5, 9:4, 14:7;

    Joel 1:5, 3:3;

    Amos 2:8,12, 5:11, 6:6, 9:14;

    Micah 2:11, 6:15;

    Habakkuk 2:5;

    Zephaniah 1:13;

    Haggai 2:12;

    Zechariah 9:15, 10:7.
    Wine [ Strong's H8492 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: tiyrowsh; Hebrew: תִּירוֹשׁ - commonly translated into the English: “wine” [ or New Wine ]. “From H3423 [ yarash יָרַשׁ to seize, dispossess, take possession of, inherit, disinherit, occupy, impoverish, an heir ] in the sense of expulsion” 38 times “wine”. “Wine, fresh or new wine, must, freshly pressed wine

    Genesis 27:28,37;

    Numbers 18:12;

    Deuteronomy 7:13, 11:14, 12:17, 14:23, 18:4, 28:51, 33:28;

    Judges 9:13;

    2 Kings 18:32;

    2 Chronicles 31:5, 32:28;

    Nehemiah 5:11, 10:37,39, 13:5,12;

    Psalms 4:7;

    Proverbs 3:10;

    Isaiah 24:7, 36:17, 62:8, 65:8;

    Jeremiah 31:12;

    Hosea 2:8,9,22, 4:11, 7:14, 9:2;

    Joel 1:10, 2:19,24;

    Micah 6:15;

    Haggai 1:11;

    Zechariah 9:17.
    Strong Wine, Strong Drink [ Strong's H7941 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: shekar; Hebrew: שֵׁכָר - commonly translated into the English: "strong drink". “From H7937 [ shakar שָׁכַר to be, or to become drunken, be intoxicated]” 21 times “strong drink”, 1 times “strong wine”, 1 times “drunkard” [could be made from fruit of the vine, grapes, dates, honey, etc.]

    Wine, Winepresses, Press, Fats, Pressfat [ Strong's H3342 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: yeqeb; Hebrew: יֶקֶב - commonly translated into the English: “winepresses”. “From an unused root meaning to excavate” [winevat dug into the earth] 10 times “winepresses”, 2 times “press”, 2 times “fats”, 1 times “pressfat”, 1 times “wine”

    Lees, Dregs [ Strong's H8105 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: shemer; Hebrew: שֶׁמֶר - commonly translated into the English: “Lees”. “From H8104 [ shamar שָׁמַר to keep, guard, observe, give heed]” 4 times “lees”, 1 times “dregs”

    Grape, Wine [ Strong's H6025 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: `enab; Hebrew: עֵנָב - commonly translated into the English: “grape”. “From an unused root probably meaning to bear fruit” 18 times “grape”, 1 times “wine”

    Wine [ Strong's H2562 ]: Aramaic Transliterated: chamar (Aramaic); Aramaic: חֲמַר - commonly translated into the English: “wine”. “Corresponding to H2561 [ chemer חֶמֶר wine, from H2560 chamar to boil, foam, foam up, ferment]” 6 times “wine”

    Ezra 6:9, 7:22;

    Daniel 5:1,2,4,23.
    Wine [ Strong's H2561 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: chemer; Hebrew: חֶמֶר - commonly translated into the English: “wine”. “From H2560 [ chamar חָמַר to boil, foam, foam up, ferment ]” 1 times “pure”, 1 times “wine”

    Sweet Wine, New Wine, Juice [ Strong's H6071 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: `aciyc; Hebrew: עָסִיס - commonly translated into the English: “sweet wine, new wine, juice”. “From H6072 [ `acac עָסַס to press, crush, press by treading, tread down or out” 2 times “new wine”, 2 times “sweet wine”, 1 times “juice”

    Song Of Songs [Solomon] 8:2;

    Isaiah 49:26;

    Joel 1:5, 3:18;

    Amos 9:13.
    Liquor [ Strong's H4952 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: mishrah; Hebrew: מִשְׁרָה - commonly translated into the English: “liquor” [juice]. “From H8281 [ sharah> שָׁרָה to let loose, set free ] in the sense of loosening” 1 times “liquor” [juice of steeped grapes]

    Liquor [ Strong's H4197 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: mezeg; Hebrew: מֶזֶג - commonly translated into the English: “liquor” [mixture, mixed wine]. “From an unused root meaning to mingle (water with wine)” 1 times “liquor”

    Song Of Songs [Solomon] 7:2.
    Mixed Wine, Drink Offering [ Strong's H4469 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: mamcak; Hebrew: מִמְסָךְ - commonly translated into the English: “mixed wine, drink offering”. “From H4537 [ macak מָסַךְ to mix, mingle, produce by mixing]” 1 times “mixed wine”, 1 times “drink offering”

    Flagon [of wine] [ Strong's H809 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: 'ashiyshah; Hebrew: אֲשִׁישָׁה - commonly translated into the English: “flagon [of wine]”. “From H808 [ 'ashiysh אֲשִׁישׁ with the sense of pressing down, foundation ]” 4 times “flagon”

    2 Samuel 6:19;

    1 Chronicles 16:3;

    Song Of Songs [Solomon] 2:5;

    Hosea 3:1.
    Wine, Drink, Drunken [ Strong's H5435 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: cobe'; Hebrew: סֹבֶא - commonly translated into the English: “wine, drink, drunken”. “From H5433 [ caba' סָבָא to drink heavily or largely, imbibe]” 1 times “wine”, 1 times “drink”, 1 times “drunken”

    Drunkard, Winebibbers, Fill, Drunken, [variant] [ Strong's H5433 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: caba'; Hebrew: סָבָא - commonly translated into the English: “drunkard, winebibbers, fill, drunken, [variant]”. “A primitive root” 2 times “drunkard”, 1 times “winebibbers”, 1 times “fill”, 1 times “drunken”, 1 times [variant]

    Spiced [ Strong's H7544 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: reqach; Hebrew: רֶקַח - commonly translated into the English: “spiced”. “From H7543 [ raqach רָקַח to mix, compound ]” 1 times “spiced” wine

    Song Of Songs [Solomon] 8:2.
    Vinegar [ Strong's H2558 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: chomets; Hebrew: חֹמֶץ- commonly translated into the English: “vinegar”. “From H2556 [ chamets חָמֵץto be leavened, sour ]” 6 times “vinegar”

    Gall, Venom, Poison, Hemlock [ Strong's H7219 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: ro'sh; Hebrew: רֹאשׁ - commonly translated into the English: “Gall, Venom, Poison, Hemlock” 9 times “gall”, 1 times “venom”, 1 times “poison”, 1 times “hemlock”

    Mingle [ Strong's H4537 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: macak; Hebrew: מָסַךְ- commonly translated into the English:“mingle”. “A Primitive root” 5 times “mingle”

    Mixture [ Strong's H4538 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: mecek; Hebrew: מֶסֶךְ - commonly translated into the English: “mixture”. “From H4537 [ macak מָסַךְto mix, mingle, produce by mixing ]” 1 times “mixture”

    Drink Offering, Libation, Molten Image, Something Poured Out [ Strong's H5262 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: necek; Hebrew: נֶסֶךְ - commonly translated into the English: “offering”. “From H5258 [ nacak נָסַךְto pour out, pour, offer, cast ]” 59 times “offering”, 4 times “image”, 1 times “cover withal”

    Genesis 35:14;

    Exodus 29:40,41, 30:9;

    Leviticus 23:13,18,37;

    Numbers 4:7, 6:15,17, 15:5,7,10,24, 28:7,8,9,10,14,15,24,31, 29:6,11,16,18,19,21,22,24,25,27,28,30,31,33,34,37,38,39;

    2 Kings 16:13,15;

    1 Chronicles 29:21;

    2 Chronicles 29:35;

    Psalms 16:4;

    Isaiah 41:29, 48:5, 57:6;

    Jeremiah 7:18, 10:14, 19:13, 32:29, 44:17,18,19,25, 51:17;

    Ezekiel 20:28, 45:17;

    Joel 1:9,13, 2:14.
    Mixed [ Strong's H4107 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: mahal; Hebrew: מָהַל - commonly translated into the English: “mixed”. Meaning to “circumcise, cut down, weaken”, “A Primitive Root” 1 times “mixed” [wine mixed with water]

    Honey [ Strong's H1706 ]: Hebrew Transliterated: dĕbash; Hebrew: דְּבַשׁ - commonly translated into the English: “honey”. “From an unused root meaning to be gummy” 52 times “honey”, 1 times “honeycomb” [+03295], 1 times “honeycomb” [+06688]

    Genesis 43:11;

    Exodus 3:8,17, 13:5, 16:31, 33:3;

    Leviticus 2:11, 20:24;

    Numbers 13:27, 14:8, 16:13,14;

    Deuteronomy 6:3, 8:8, 11:9, 26:9,15, 27:3, 31:20, 32:13;

    Joshua 5:6;

    Judges 14:8,9,18;

    1 Samuel 14:25,26,27,29,43;

    2 Samuel 17:29;

    1 Kings 14:3;

    2 Kings 18:32;

    2 Chronicles 31:5;

    Job 20:17;

    Psalms 19:10, 81:16, 119:103;

    Proverbs 16:24, 24:13, 25:16,27;

    Song Of Songs [Solomon] 4:11, 5:1;

    Isaiah 7:15,22;

    Jeremiah 11:5, 32:22, 41:8;

    Ezekiel 3:3, 16:13,19, 20:6,15, 27:17.
    Wine [ Strong's G3631 ]: Greek Transliterated: oinos; Greek: οἶνος - commonly translated into the English: “wine”. “A primary word or perhaps from H3196 [ yayin יַיִן wine ]” 32 times “wine”, 1 times “winepress” [+ 3125]

    Matthew 9:17;

    Mark 2:22, 15:23;

    Luke 1:15, 5:37,38, 7:33, 10:34;

    John 2:3,9,10, 4:46;

    Romans 14:21;

    Ephesians 5:18;

    1 Timothy 3:8, 5:23;

    Titus 2:3;

    Revelation 6:6, 14:8,10, 16:19, 17:2, 18:3,13, 19:15.
    New Wine [ Strong's G1098 ]: Greek Transliterated: gleukos; Greek: γλεῦκος - commonly translated into the English: “new wine” [ sweet wine ]. “Akin to G1099 [ glykys γλυκύς sweet ]” 1 times “new wine”

    Acts 2:13.
    Vine [of the; Fruit] [ Strong's G288 ]: Greek Transliterated: ampelos; Greek: ἄμπελος - commonly translated into the English: “vine” [ of the; Fruit ]. “From G297 [amphoteroi ἀμφότεροι both] and G257 [halōnἅλων a ground plot or threshing floor]” 9 times “vine”

    Vinegar [ Strong's G3690 ]: Greek Transliterated: oxos; Greek: ὄξος - commonly translated into the English: “vinegar”. “From G3691 [ oxys ὀξύς sharp, swift, quick ]” 7 times “vinegar”

    Excess of wine [ Strong's G3632 ] Greek Transliterated: oinophlygia; Greek: οἰνοφλυγία - commonly translated into the English: “excess of wine”. “From G3631 [oinos οἶνος wine ] and G5397 [ phlyaros φλύαρος persons uttering or doing silly things, babbling ]” 1 times “excess of wine”

    Given To Wine [ Strong's G3943 ]: Greek Transliterated: paroinos; Greek: πάροινος - commonly translated into the English: “given to wine, drunken”. “From G3844 [ para παρά from, of, at, by, besides, near ] and G3631 [ oinos> οἶνος wine ]” 2 times “given to wine”

    Winebibber [ Strong's G3630 ]: Greek Transliterated: oinopotēs; Greek οἰνοπότης - commonly translated into the English: “winebibber”. “From G3631 [ oinos οἶνος wine ] and G4095 [ pinō; πίνω to drink ]” 2 times “winebibber”

    Have Well Drunk, Be Drunken, Be Made Drunk [ Strong's G3184 ]: Greek Transliterated: methyō; Greek: μεθύω - commonly translated into the English: “Be Drunken, Have well Drunk, Be Made Drunk”. “From G3178 [ methē; μέθη intoxication, drunkenness]” 5 times “Be Drunken”, 1 times “Have Well Drunk”, 1 times “Be Made Drunk”

    Drunkenness [ Strong's G3178 ]: Greek Transliterated: methē; Greek: μέθη - commonly translated into the English: “drunkenness”. “Apparently a root word” 3 times “drunkenness”

    With these words now listed and referenced, we can look to see if there is a dual use of the word "wine" in the scriptures in evidence of the "Yes." answer to the second half of the question previously asked.

    In the Mouth of Two or Three Witnesses, let everything be established... for remember, all we are looking to do at this point is to establish that the Bible does indeed have a multiple use for the word "wine", and that it does not have to always mean the fermented alcoholic variety of the term.

    Good Wine, Unalcoholic, Unfermented Wine:

    [1] Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and [one] saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing [is] in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. Isaiah 65:8

    [2] Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries. Nehemiah 13:12

    [3] So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. Proverbs 3:10
    These 3 simple texts reveal that the word "wine" is also meant of the simple juice of the Grapes, even ripe from the harvest, right off of the vine, right fresh and invigorating from the press vats, the very firstfruits of the harvest increase even.

    Now let us begin to look deeper, and at specific texts, and we will also begin to consider the very "nature" of the two 'kinds' of "wine".
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  2. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

    Now that we have seen all of the uses in the whole of scripture [KJB], and the definitions from the various world authorities, dictionaries, etc and with linked studies, let us actually turn to the pages of the Bible and see the definitions there.

    The "Nature" of the [alcoholic, an Arabic word] "Wine"

    The Bible over and over warns against alcoholic content, to stay away from it... and why? Because of its very "nature"... it is from corruption, destruction, sin, decay and death... and there are several examples which we may consider in the scriptures in the lives of those which partook of it and also of the sinful and sad effects and consequences which were the fruit of it...

    Please notice with me the following text:

    Proverbs 20:1 KJB - Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

    Take special notice that this text is clear, in that it does not mention anything about "quantity" here, but rather its inherent "nature".

    It merely states the very nature of the thing, that this alcoholic "wine" is,

    Wine = mocker

    Strong Drink = Raging

    Classic Hebrew/Bible Definition, even Chiastic in structure and parallelism.

    And it mentions those who are "deceived" by them, thinking they are the masters over them ["Wine" [alcholic] and "Strong Drink"], are simply, and without equivocation, "not wise".

    Therefore, as it is written:

    Galatians 6:7 KJB - "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

    ...continuing looking at the very "nature" of the "wines", we can see further still, the clear and dire warnings given to us from God to stay well clear of the alcoholic content.

    The Bible over and over warns against any alcoholic content, to stay away from it, for it is connected with sin, and the devil.

    Of the intoxicating, alcoholic "wine" it is stated that ... it "stingeth like an adder" [Proverbs 23:32 KJB], "biteth like a serpent" [Proverbs 23:32 KJB], "poison of dragons" [Deuteronomy 32:33 KJB], "cruel venom of asps" [Deuteronomy 32:33 KJB], "mocker" [Proverbs 20:1 KJB], "raging" [Proverbs 20:1 KJB], "wounds without cause" [Proverbs 23:29 KJB], etc... also causing the forgetting of the Law and His Ten Commandments, and causing wrong judgment...and the Bible says "woe unto them".

    Isaiah 5:20 KJB - Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

    Isaiah 5:22 KJB - Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

    Again, notice the very "nature" described, even without any mention of "amount". Is there a "blessing" or a "Woe" pronounced?

    ...and so I now ask a few more questions, based upon what we have gathered and in so looking at the terminology above, with whom are the terms associated with, Christ or Satan?

    Who is the "adder"?
    Who is the "serpent"?
    Who is the "asp"?
    Who is the "Dragon"?
    Who is the one who is like a "raging" beast and lion?
    Who is the one which "mocks"?
    Who is the one which has given "wounds without cause"?
    Who is the one who is "cruel"?

    Notice the word associated with it is "poisons" and "venom", the very word linked to "intoxicating".

    Notice the word "deceived" is associated with it, and who is the "deceiver", the root of all "deception"?

    Does "life" "sting" or does rather "death" "sting"?

    Dear brother or sister, think of the very Person whom we love, Christ Jesus, and how He was wounded without cause [pierced to the heart, pierced in hands and feet and side and head, wounded for our transgressions], for He is innocent, Lamb without spot, and who was the one which did that to Him?

    Who mocked Him upon the Cross, "Come down..."?

    Who Bit His Heel like a Serpent, and spat venom like the Asp and Adder?

    Who wars and rages against Christ as the Dragon?

    Who rages even now? And goes to make war with the remnant?

    What had the devil even then tried to get Jesus to do? He tried to get Jesus to drink of the poison, and venom [Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23], and He tried to get Jesus to sin on the Cross!

    Christ Jesus poured out His life, the pure sweet blood [the perfect anti-type/reality of the pure juice of the grape] of His humanity, and the enemy sought to give him corrupted and sour/bitter wine..., but even then Jesus refused, even unto the end. Holy, Harmless, Undefiled.] ... yet they put it to his tongue and He tasted DEATH for every man ...

    All of these terms are associated with alcoholic "wine" and even far more, and so can True Christians partake of it?

    No, brothers and sisters, we cannot, must not, lest we be destroyed of it, lest we desire to mock Christ, desire to infect others with the cruel venom of the serpent...
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  3. Tetra

    Tetra Well-Known Member

    Yes it is, just like eating food is fun... is fun bad? :confused:
  4. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Wine is alcoholic by definition. That's like asking if He drank wet water.
  5. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    That's wrong. Wine and beer both carry plenty of carbohydrate calories. Burns in the body just like bread.
  6. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    "Given to wine" means a drunkard on the same level of "greedy of filthy lucre"--which does not mean he won't take money for a day's work.
  7. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Actually, Paul in Romans 14 is dealing with Jewish and Gentile believers after the ascension of Jesus Christ, and thus the "wine" he is dealing with is amongst the believers [whether weak or strong "in the faith"], and thus the juice of the grape, fruit of the vine, etc, because there were still Jews, who now believed in Jesus Christ, that were still under Nazarite and other vows who still could not partake of any of those things, not even such things like raisins, grapes, etc. The death of Christ Jesus upon the cross wouldn't change the terms of such vows, for even He Himself said He wouldn't drink of such again until a specific time.

    Alcoholic content is never in view.
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Alcoholic drinks are made by fermenting and distilling natural starch and sugar. Calories from alcohol are 'empty calories', they have no nutritional value. Most alcoholic drinks contain traces of vitamins and minerals, but not usually in amounts that make any significant contribution to our diet.

    Drinking alcohol also reduces the amount of fat your body burns for energy. While we can store nutrients, protein, carbohydrates, and fat in our bodies, we can't store alcohol. So our systems want to get rid of it, and doing so takes priority. All of the other processes that should be taking place (including absorbing nutrients and burning fat) are interrupted.

    Calories in alcohol
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  9. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    What did jews normally drink at weddings? Wine with or without alchohol? Does anyone know? I'm sure Jesus made the same thing.
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Not really.


    the definition of wine
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    I am talking from a Christian perspective and not a worldly one. There are lots of things that are fun according to the world, but that does not mean they are good and right for you. I used to get drunk before I was a Christian. So yeah, I know the kind of fun he is talking about. I used to get really tipsy even after one glass of alcohol sometimes. But it is not real fun like God intended. Fun is not in getting intoxicate with a very mild poison like alcohol.
  12. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

    Jesus made alcoholic wine, end of story :D

    "According to Jewish wedding tradition, fermented wine was always served at weddings; if Jesus had provided only grape juice, the master of the feast would have complained. Instead, he said the wine was better than what was previously served; it was apparently a “fine” wine (John 2:10–11)."

    Did Jesus drink wine/alcohol?
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    This article I read today agrees with you.

    Does Romans 14 Authorize Christians To Drink Alcohol For Non-Medicinal Purposes?

    You may enjoy it. Currently, I am now leaning towards the idea that Romans 14 was not referring to the alcoholic beverages of today with the word "wine." If such is the case, then I would no longer be an Abstentionist but a Prohibitionist (Except for alcohol consumption used only for medical reasons; Like for numbing pain, and or to help treat infected water, or ease stomach problems from drinking unclean water). I need to do further study, but I am currently inclined towards the idea that the word "wine" in Romans 14 is in reference to Israelite wine (Which was a wine that was extremely diluted by several parts of water whereby it would not so easily intoxicate you like today's wines).

    You believe there are only two wines mentioned in the Bible (grape juice and alcoholic wine). I believe there are 3 wines mentioned in the Bible.

    #1. Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice and or the Fruit of the Vine)
    (A Non-Intoxicating Drink).

    #2. Fermented Wine Mixed by Three Parts of Water (Israelite Wine)
    (Very Low in Alcoholic Content).
    The Israelite used to store alcoholic wine or strong drink in leather pouches for storage, and then when it came time to drink, they would mix it with water (i.e. they would dilute it). The Israelite would also keep strong drink on hand as a medical aid (to dull pain, help upset stomachs, etc.).

    #3. Strong Intoxicating Fermented Wine (Barbarian Wine)
    (High in Alcoholic Content).
    Barbarians and or Gentiles usually drank wine undiluted. In fact, they still do today.​

    But I believe the Israelite drank wine mixed (or diluted) with water.

    Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

    Revelation 14:10 says,

    “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”

    (Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

    1 Timothy 5:23 says,
    "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

    Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
    "She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

    Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

    John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29). The water is representative of the Scriptures (See Ephesians 5:26). We are told to abide in Christ and abide in His words (See John 15:7).

    Isaiah 1:22 CJB
    “Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

    Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

    How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

    If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

    So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

    Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

    Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

    2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Even wine tasters of today do not base how they like it solely on the alcoholic content but they base it on the taste.
  15. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    It isn't so simply because you say so.

    The "good" [morally excellent] "wine", is the fresh juice of the Grape, to rejoice men's hearts, which is invigorating and healthful, even tasty!

    And this pure blood of the Grape, is meant for life, joy, rejoicing and gladness [Zechariah 10:7] as can be found at a wedding [John 2:1-11, 4:46] [which we will consider Cana, etc in a bit] or a blessed feast of God [Psalms 104:15; Ecclesiastes 9:7, etc]. They were symbols pointing unto Christ's own pure wedding and feast with His own Bride/people to come, as we shall see. It is also found as the very heart and symbol of the New and Everlasting Covenant [Hebrews 13:10], made in the midst of the True Passover [Matthew 26:17; Mark 14:1,12; Luke 22:1,7; 1 Corinthians 5:6-8].

    Jesus is the "vine"

    John 15:1 KJB - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

    John 15:5 KJB - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

    Jesus went to the six waterpots [earthen vessels] filled with "water".

    A vine in the natural turns the water into the juice of the grape through a miraculous process. It does not turn it into distilled "spirits" and fermented corruption. Jesus is the spiritual vine [as per 1 Corinthians 15:46 KJB].

    Jesus did an act of Creation, creating the best pure fresh juice of the vine, as it was in the beginning.

    What is the example of Christ Jesus? What of the wedding of Cana, that Jesus attended? What was that wine which He Himself had made?

    And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: John 2:1

    And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. John 2:2

    And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. John 2:3

    And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. John 2:6

    Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. John 2:7

    When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew; ) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, John 2:9

    And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now. John 2:10

    This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. John 2:11

    So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum. John 4:46

    Did not the "governor of the feast" declare that the "wine" that Jesus made was the "best" by saying "...Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.", and does not this mean it was of perfect alcoholic content, and perfectly 'aged'?

    Those are two separate questions, of which the answer to the First is "Yes, it was the best 'wine'." and the answer to the Second is "No, it had nothing to do with an 'aged' alcholic 'wine'."

    What do the scriptures mean then?

    Consider that the preservation methods of that time period were not perfect, and any "wine" [Grape Juice] that was held for long periods of time would lose its flavor and be syrupy and have to have water added to make it more palatable, and therefore, in any given celebration, that which was usually done, is to serve the most freshest juice of the grape at the beginning, anything that had been closer to the most recent harvest, and afterwards they would serve that which was sitting longer in preservation. Consider the time of the year. The Govenor was stunned by the freshness of this "wine", not any biting alcoholic content.

    Jesus instead, being the Creator Himself, turns the water, into the perfect juice of the grape, as if it were freshly harvested [for He doth not need to first plant a seed and wait until it grows, for like Adam, He can bring it to full and perfect unblemished fruition instantly, for He speaks and it is so].

    It was the very symbol and perfect gift of His own life and doctrine, for His Bride. People that read backwards into the text their own preconceived ideas about what the 'best wine [alcoholic]', they [incorrectly] think, is today, being some 'aged' bottle of corruption and dissipation, make a serious error in so doing. Additionally, the word for "good", is the from Greek "Kalos", meaning "honourable, noble, praiseworthy, morally good, etc" [Strong's Concordance]

    Are we to [wrongly] suppose that Christ Jesus, made 90-150 gallons of alcohol to consume at a wedding feast, a place of celebration, blessing, rejoicing and joy, being not one of drunkeness, cursing, licentiousness and revelry?

    Notice that the event was a Wedding. Now in the Bible, a Wedding was not a place for getting intoxicated, but rather was a joyous celebration and new life together.

    This [marriage] event is a symbol of the very pure Wedding of Christ Jesus to His own Church Bride, in fact the entire Second Advent is in the context of a Wedding, and even utilizes that language in numerous places.

    Jesus, called the “Bridegroom” by John the Baptist, comes to see His Betrothed [Church], then after many events, He ascends and goes to “prepare a place” for “her” [He ascends to Heaven], just as the Bridegroom would go back to the Father's house [where there are many Mansions] and prepare one of the rooms [a place in New Jerusalem], and would then after a time when asll is ready, and in the timing of the Father, He would then “come again” and “receive” “her” unto himself in the Wedding [Jesus Second Advent].

    Notice, that where it was asked for wine in the Gospels at the Wedding of Cana, the wedding had already taken place. This then would point to the time when we will actually be with Jesus Christ.

    Jesus then goes to where there are “six” waterpots of stone which contained “two or three firkins apiece”. That is actually a little less than 9 English Gallons or 40 Litres for each Firkin, est. That is a tremendous amount of “wine”, and if [God forbid!] any of that were actually fermented [alcoholic], then Jesus just advocated liscentiousness, dissipation and revelry, which of course would be sin - for remember they had already consumed all of the previous amount, but since it was the juice of the Grape, given for Celebration, it was the perfect gift, and symbol and representation of His own selflessness, His own Blood, and His own Doctrine.

    Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to [him], and makest [him] drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! Habakkuk 2:5

    "Thou art filled with shame for glory..." [Habakkuk 2:6;p]​

    Jesus is the pure vine [John 15:5], and so then He is the 7th Jar, that vessel of the pure, which eternally pours forth and from which all blessings flow, and so He pours into the 6 other empty jars.

    His “doctrine” is Pure and His “Wine” is pure, just as He is "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens" [Hebrews 7:26], unfermented, and fills us, bringing great joy.

    For in Scripture, “wine” is a symbol for “doctrine”, whether Pure or Corrupted, and fermented "wine" always represented sin, apostacy, corruption, cursing, and the unfermented [pure juice of the grape, "...thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape." Deuteronomy 32:14, see also Genesis 49:11] representing joy, life, newness, blessing.

    Fermented grape [alcoholic content], represented sin, wickedness, rebellion, and corrupted doctrines:

    Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Jeremiah 51:7
    Notice that fermented wine causes madness and drunkeness, and symbolizes false doctrines and hypocrisy which lead to false ideologies, practices and ways.

    And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Revelation 14:8

    Jesus also spoke of the corrupt spiritual Leaven [fermentation]:

    Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Matthew 16:6

    Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Matthew 16:12

    And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod. Mark 8:15

    In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. Luke 12:1

    … and even by Paul, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:" 1 Corinthians 5:7, did we notice again the context of Passover and no leavening? For it represented primarily sin, and Christ is sinless, as we are to be in Him.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    There is no question that the wine Jesus made was unfermented wine (i.e. grape juice or the fruit of the vine). I believe this is also the same beverage used in the Lord's supper, as well.
  17. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    United States
    Thank you for the link, I quickly read through and will probably go back at a slower pace later.

    In just commenting, I am not really arguing about two specific "wines", as if there were only two such wines in the Bible, but I am arguing the inherent "nature" [the pure, unalcoholic & the corrupted, alcoholic] of two "kinds" of "wine". The Bible mentions many types of 'wines' or alcohol, such as through the grapes, raisins, honey, barley or grain [beer type], other fermented fruits, a vinegar, liquor, strong drink, mixed, spiced, and so on.

    Anyways, thank you for the link again brother.
  18. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    And alcohol itself has 7 calories per gram, making it more energy-rich than carbohydrate.
  19. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    Yes. Psalm 104 says the same thing.
  20. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    The alcohol is only a small percentage of wine and beer. They are mostly water with the second component being sugars.