Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

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In love Jason, please do not twist my words, I was quite clear that I was speaking of matter (real tangible things comprising molecules) and I stand by that contention with conviction.

Genesis 1:31
God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.​

I cannot read your mind. I am only going off what you say. You were suggesting that there is NOTHING evil in itself. I disagree. The devil is an evil being. He was once a good being but he is now evil. His molecules that were used to create him were good. But the devil chose to twist the good of God's creation by doing evil. The Satanic bible is made up of matter. Yet, it is an evil book. The materials used to make it were not evil, but they are good. But man has taken what was good and corrupted it (and make it bad). Why else would God destroy the world with a global flood if it was not for the corruption of evil everywhere? His creation (man) became evil. Man chose to turn (that which is good) into being evil. God decided to reboot the world and start again with the flood.

In fact, why would God choose to destroy the wicked if the physical matter of the wicked was good?
 
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Yummmm. Poppy-seed cake.

orange-poppyseed-cake-35403-1.jpeg


Oh, were you talking about the other kind of poppy? They grow near here. They are a wonderful source of pain-killing medicines, and I'm sure that God gave them to us for that reason. Of course, they have a tragic potential for misuse, which is why access to them should be, and is, controlled.

5265526-3x2-940x627.jpg


Now, you may ask, what did God give us wine for? And Psalm 104:15 tells us one reason: to gladden the heart of man.

Not everything in God's creation is good for man. Sugar was created by God, but yet sugar (Cain) is actually not all that good for you. It is best to avoid sweets in life if you can. Granted, there is nothing wrong with having dessert. But the point is that food is not the same thing as alcoholic beverages. Alcoholic beverages in most cases are not food because they do not have nutrition labels on them. What little nutritions alcohol had in the bottle is destroyed by the fact that you have to fight off the effects of the toxin known as alcohol with your immune system (or repair system).

Psalms 104:15 is again talking about wine mixed with water. The Israelite did not drink wine undiluted. Only barbarians or Gentiles did that. It's why Scripture says elsewhere not to look at wine when it is red.
 
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woobadooba

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I am an Abstentionist. While I believe that some Christians can drink soberly and responsibly so as not to make their brother to stumble by their making an open display of their social drinking, I believe it is better to teach that is best to abstain for all believers because following Jesus is not about what we want. It is about picking up our cross and denying ourselves and following Jesus.
I respect your stand against alcohol, but it's a personal choice. You have no right to push your personal convictions onto others, nor any right to imply people who consume alcohol are less in touch with God than those who don't. Moreover, you have no right to declare something sinful. God tells us what is unacceptable to Him; it's not something we have a right to determine. God makes the rules, and we obey Him. Twisting the Scriptures to make it look like the Bible agrees with a personal opinion is both irresponsible and dishonest.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yummmm. Poppy-seed cake.

orange-poppyseed-cake-35403-1.jpeg


Oh, were you talking about the other kind of poppy? They grow near here. They are a wonderful source of pain-killing medicines, and I'm sure that God gave them to us for that reason. Of course, they have a tragic potential for misuse, which is why access to them should be, and is, controlled.

5265526-3x2-940x627.jpg


Now, you may ask, what did God give us wine for? And Psalm 104:15 tells us one reason: to gladden the heart of man.
Yes, I can see your point, Radagast! ;) Yum!
 
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I respect your stand against alcohol, but it's a personal choice. You have no right to push your personal convictions onto others, nor any right to imply people who consume alcohol are less in touch with God than those who don't. Moreover, you have no right to declare something sinful. God tells us what is unacceptable to Him; it's not something we have a right to determine. God makes the rules, and we obey Him. Twisting the Scriptures to make it look like the Bible agrees with a personal opinion is both irresponsible and dishonest.

I have every right to push what the Bible says about alcohol upon others. We are to preach and correct others according to the Word of God (See 2 Timothy 4:2).

Scripture commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV).

In John 2, it says that the wedding guests were "well drunk". So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18).

Think about this. If the wedding guests at Cana were "well drunk" and Jesus made even more intoxicating wine, then they would definitely no longer be "sober minded" but they would be drunk or intoxicated. Yet, the Bible condemns being drunk.
 
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Yes, I can see your point, Radagast! ;) Yum!

Yet,

"...the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).
 
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Radagast

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It is best to avoid sweets in life if you can.

That proves it. You are simply opposed to every kind of fun. :sigh:

Alcoholic beverages in most cases are not food because they do not have nutrition labels on them.

That's the most bizarre idea I ever heard. The right kind of beer is practically a meal all by itself.

Guinness_Draught_840002.png


Oh, and alcohol is not a "toxin." In fact, alcohol exists naturally in the blood at levels of 0.0002% or more.

And Scripture tells us that drinking wine (in moderation) is good; as does Jesus' miracle at Cana.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yet,

"...the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).

Jason0047, I hate to say it, but you've just proof-texted in such a way that you demonstrate that, in this instance at least, you aren't using very reasonable exegesis. This verse CAN'T mean what you, in your slight quotation of it, imply that it means. Do you see why? This is one of the reasons I'm sure you've seen me harp on the importance of doing hermeneutics. In essence, you've actually made the verse 'say' something other than what Paul was intending for it to mean.
 
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Radagast

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then they would definitely no longer be "sober minded" but they would be drunk or intoxicated

Please stop with your criticism of what Jesus did at Cana.

And if you are referring to Titus 2:6, it instructs men to be self-controlled (NIV, ESV, CSB) or sensible (NASB) -- the verb is σωφρονέω. That verse does not mention alcohol, and provides no prohibition on a moderate intake of wine.
 
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dogs4thewin

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It's kind of ironic. Your signature at the bottom of each your posts say:

"March is colon cancer awareness month."

Yet, one of the causes of colon cancer is caused by alcohol.
Yes, but that is having too much. If I drink a little or even low moderate that is not what causes much of anything. It is drinking too much too often.
 
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Jason0047, I hate to say it, but you've just proof-texted in such a way that you demonstrate that, in this instance at least, you aren't using very reasonable exegesis. This verse CAN'T mean what you, in your slight quotation of it, imply that it means. Do you see why? This is one of the reasons I'm sure you've seen me harp on the importance of doing hermeneutics. In essence, you've actually made the verse 'say' something other than what Paul was intending for it to mean.
How so?
 
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Yes, but that is having too much. If I drink a little or even low moderate that is not what causes much of anything. It is drinking too much too often.
But it starts with one innocent drink and can become more. If life gets hard for a person, their mild drinking may be heavy drinking in order to deal with life's problems. For why drink at all? Surely it is not the taste but it is more of how it makes you feel. For would you drink still if the taste was the same and yet the intoxicating effects were removed?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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First off, let me just say that I do understand your implication. Yes, alcohol as a form of social anodyne is, like many substances today, used way, way too often by people as a coping strategy for the ills of life. And we see them unfortunately become addicted and further plunge themselves and their families into hardship, not only physically, but spiritually and financially. So, I do get that, and I would agree with you that Christians shouldn't be too cavalier about their use of various forms of alchohol in what is otherwise, and admittedly, a sin soaked world.

On the other hand, if we are going to read Romans 14:17, then its meaning can not be extricated from, at least, the context which Paul intends for it to have as a part of his passage contained in the entirety of Romans Chapter 14. So, for us to see what Paul is truly targeting as a subject, we have to read the entire chapter, not just focus our eyes on one or two verses in the middle of the page and then do a big "pull out" of those verses where we then read them in a complete disconnect from the actual conceptual structure in which we do indeed find them.

In this, case, if we read the entirety of Romans chapter 14, we see that Paul isn't by implication denouncing the drinking of alcohol in total for each and every Christian, or that alcohol (or other various foods with possible moral influences) is by nature a sinful substance. No, what we see in chapter 14 is Paul asserting that there are SOME things in life that are neutral in their moral makeup, but which can be misused. And here, Paul is telling Christians on both sides of what we might call the Habitual Divide, to think twice about how we evaluate those "who do" and "those who don't" in regard to these more morally neutral instances. The use of alcohol would be one of those instances.

The upshot of what Paul says, however, is that even though it may very well be within my prerogative as a Christian to drink alcohol without sinning in doing so, the solid fact that some of my brothers and sisters in Christ do have severe problems with habituating to alcohol means that I, even in my freedom to imbibe, should be very, very conscientious about how, when, where, why, and with whom I do my drinking. That is, if I do so decide to drink alcohol at any given time, and assuming that I have no inclination to ever be under alcohols influence in a way that is unbecoming of a Christian who holds Jesus as Lord. Because, for some people who have problems with habituation, then drinking alcohol actually IS a sin for them. Then, for those for whom it is not, they must be aware and accountable in caring about this social situation and spiritual risk.

And that's the application that I think we see Paul clearly state in this chapter. He's not saying that some foods and drinks are just sinful all the way through, but that they may be sinful for some people and not for others.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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Please stop with your criticism of what Jesus did at Cana.

And if you are referring to Titus 2:6, it instructs men to be self-controlled (NIV, ESV, CSB) or sensible (NASB) -- the verb is σωφρονέω. That verse does not mention alcohol, and provides no prohibition on a moderate intake of wine.
Do you believe they were tipsy or drunk at wedding party?
 
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First off, let me just say that I do understand your implication. Yes, alcohol as a form of social anodyne is, like many substances today, used way, way too often by people as a coping strategy for the ills of life. And we see them unfortunately become addicted and further plunge themselves and their families into hardship, not only physically, but spiritually and financially. So, I do get that, and I would agree with you that Christians shouldn't be too cavalier about their use of various forms of alchohol in what is otherwise, and admittedly, a sin soaked world.

On the other hand, if we are going to read Romans 14:17, then its meaning can not be extricated from, at least, the context which Paul intends for it to have as a part of his passage contained in the entirety of Romans Chapter 14. So, for us to see what Paul is truly targeting as a subject, we have to read the entire chapter, not just focus our eyes on one or two verses in the middle of the page and then do a big "pull out" of those verses where we then read them in a complete disconnect from the actual conceptual structure in which we do indeed find them.

In this, case, if we read the entirety of Romans chapter 14, we see that Paul isn't by implication denouncing the drinking of alcohol in total for each and every Christian, or that alcohol (or other various foods with possible moral influences) is by a nature a sinful substance. No, what we see in chapter 14 is Paul asserting that there are SOME things in life that are neutral in their moral makeup, but can be misused. And here, Paul is telling Christians on both side of what we might call the Habitual Divide, to think twice about how we evaluate those "who do" and "those who don't" in regard to these more morally neutral instances. Alcohol would be one of those instances.

The upshot of what Paul says, however, is that even though it may very well be within my prerogative as a Christian to drink alcohol without sinning in doing so, the solid fact that some of my have brothers and sisters in Christ do have severe problems with habituating to alcohol means that I, even in my freedom to imbibe, should be very, very conscientious about how, when, where, why, and with whom I do my drinking. That is , if I do so decide to drink alcohol at any given time. Because, for some people who have problems with habituation, then drinking alcohol actual IS a sin for them, and for those for who it is not must be aware and care about this social situation.

And that's the application that I think we see Paul clearly state in this chapter. He's not that some foods and drinks are just sinful all the way through, but that they may be sinful for some people and not for others.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

I disagree with your conclusion. You are not really reading and believing what Romans 14:17 says. Paul is telling us not to drink or eat in such a way to make our brother to stumble. This would include alcohol because Paul mentions wine. Paul is still saying that the kingdom of God is not meat or drink. Our focus should not be living it up here in this life. Jesus says pick up your cross and deny yourself.

I am an Abstentionist. This means I believe that a believer has a liberty in Christian to drink. But just because we have a liberty, does not mean it is always profitable. You may have a liberty to to swim in shark infested waters every morning, but it may not be profitable. Paul is saying that you can abuse your liberty by making a brother to stumble. He then mentions the truth about the kingdom not being about food or drink. Do you think the kingdom is about food and drink?
 
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That proves it. You are simply opposed to every kind of fun. :sigh:



That's the most bizarre idea I ever heard. The right kind of beer is practically a meal all by itself.

Guinness_Draught_840002.png


Oh, and alcohol is not a "toxin." In fact, alcohol exists naturally in the blood at levels of 0.0002% or more.

And Scripture tells us that drinking wine (in moderation) is good; as does Jesus' miracle at Cana.
Wait. Did you just say drinkin alcohol is fun?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I disagree with your conclusion. You are not really reading and believing what Romans 14:17 says. Paul is telling us not to drink or eat in such a way to make our brother to stumble. This would include alcohol because Paul mentions wine. I am an Abstentionist. This means I believe that a believer has a liberty in Christian to drink. But just because we have a liberty, does not mean it is always profitable. You may have a liberty to to swim in shark infested waters every morning, but it may not be profitable.

No, I don't think Paul is saying to those Christians who do drink to NOT EVER drink in any place or at any time. He's saying that for those of us who can drink without being prone to be sinful with it, we should not be drinking in front of, or around those fellow Christians who do have a problem with it. It doesn't mean that a Christian has to abstain even in the privacy of his own home, even when he is completely away from and apart from those other Christians. To say this as you do would be to contradict what Paul also says in the rest of the passage about "each one should be settled about the issue in his own mind." This means that I can actually evaluate the drinking of alcohol as a "non-sin" for myself, while I fully realize that it can very well be a bona-fide sin for some other Christian. And because of this, I should keep my drinking of alcohol to myself.

We're not talking inappropriate contentography or visiting brothels here, which would be an example of something that should be considered a sin for every Christian. No, we're talking about the imbibing of alcoholic beverages. There are some things which really do have a more neutral moral value, and the morality or immorality of those things depends on how they are used, not on some inherent property to those things.

By your estimates, we should also throw away all hammers, because all hammers can be used to kill someone else, even though they are used to build houses.
 
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No, I don't think Paul is saying to those Christians who do drink to NOT EVER drink in any place or at any time. He's saying that for those of us who can drink without being prone to be sinful with it, we should not be drinking in front of, or around those fellow Christians who do have a problem with it. It doesn't mean that a Christian has to abstain even in the privacy of his own home, completely away from and apart from those other Christians. To say this as you do would be to contradict what Paul also says in the rest of the passage about "each one should be settled about the issue in his own mind." This means that I can actually evaluate the drinking of alchohol as a "non-sin" for myself, while I fully realize that it can very we be a sin for some other Christian. And because of this, I should keep my drinking of alcohol to myself.

We're not talking inappropriate contentography or visiting brothels here, which would be an example of something that should be considered a sin for every Christian. No, we're talking about the imbibing of alcoholic beverages. There are some things which really do have a more neutral moral value, and the moral or immorality of those things depends on how they are used, not on some inherent property to those things.

Yes, we have a liberty to drink, but I believe in maturity and growth, one will not desire to do anything to make their brother to stumble out of their love for God and the brethren & put away alcohol in time. It is why the truth of Romans 14:17 still holds true. Paul is really saying the kingdom is not meat or drink.
 
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Yes, we have a liberty to drink, but I believe in maturity and growth, one will not desire to do anything to make their brother to stumble out of their love for God and the brethren & put away alcohol in time. It is why the truth of Romans 14:17 still holds true. Paul is really saying the kingdom is not meat or drink.

So, what do each of the verses in THE REST of the same chapter mean, then? Would you care to do a verse by verse exposition about how all of what Paul states there connects together?
 
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Matthew 11
16But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

I understand that some people don't drink because they don't want to cause someone with an addiction to stumble. But we as Christians really have to stop making up all of these rigid rules and conditions. Jesus said that his yolk is easy and his burden is light. We seem to do everything in our power to change that.

Stop trying to make checklists of don'ts. Instead, focus on trying to do what Jesus asked you to do. Love God with all of your being and love your neighbor as yourself. It can be easier to to create a bunch of rules and feel good about keeping them, but we are called to strive for a Christ-like state of mind and to strive to serve. Sometimes it feels like I'm watching the pharisees in real time! XD
 
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