Did Jesus Have the Indwelling Holy Spirit?

[theTruthful77]

I've never shared this before, as any time the Lord shows me something I've never heard taught, I must be sure before I say anything. I think that I can be sure, but I would like to put it before others that will answer according to the Word. So here goes:

Jesus, in his earth ministry, did not have the promise of the Holy Spirit as we do today. Jesus functioned under an Old Covenant anointing of the Spirit. (Acts 10:38)

We see this occurring in Matthew 3:16, "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

This event marked the beginning of the ministry of Jesus when the Holy Spirit came UPON him. Though Jesus was sinless, He still was not glorified. He still had to fulfill every "jot and tittle" of the law. John 7:39 declares that the reason the Spirit was not yet given was because Jesus was not yet glorified. It was dependent upon Jesus to be glorified that the Spirit would come. This means that Jesus could NOT have had the promise of the Spirit as we have today: that is the indwelling presence of God that would never leave him nor forsake him. If he had the Spirit already, there was no need for him to be glorified!

Furthermore, if Jesus had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit as we do today, why did he cry out on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" We know from a multitude of scriptures that the promise of the Holy Spirit means He comes and lives with us forever! (John 14:16) This gift is permanent. He will not leave a true believer. Ever. If Jesus had this gift before his cross, then that would mean the Holy Spirit had left him at the cross. This would mean the Holy Spirit could leave us too. This is of course NOT the case. At the cross, the Holy Spirit simply withdrew his mighty anointing from Jesus as Jesus was made to be dead with our sin.

If Jesus had the promise of the Spirit as we do today, then the temple veil would have been torn at the birth of Christ, as the Holy Spirit left the temple and came to reside in the glorified Christ. This was not the case. The veil was torn at the death of Christ. His death tore down the veil that separated God from man. God could not take up residence fully inside of a man until the law was fulfilled... every "jot and tittle." The law stood between God and man. The law cried for man's blood: "There is none righteous, no not one." (Romans 3:10)

Jesus, even though he was the Son of God, as a man, had to fulfill all the righteousness of the law before he could be glorified and receive the eternal promise of the Holy Spirit. He had to prove his righteousness and then pay the penalty for the sin of mankind so that he could impart to us that righteousness. And impart to us that eternal Holy Spirit as well!

You could only receive the Holy Spirit after your spirit has been glorified as a member of the Body of Christ. There was no glorified Body of Christ until after the cross. Jesus could NOT have had the Spirit as we do today.

I personally believe that this is why Jesus said in John 14:12, " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

There is one very specific action that is mentioned in the Bible that Jesus did when he went unto the Father. We find it in Acts 2:33, on the day of Pentecost, "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Some say these greater works are just because Jesus is now interceding for us, and Jesus didn't have himself interceding for us at the right hand of God. I disagree. While the present day ministry of Christ interceding for us at the right hand is a powerful and wonderful fact, Jesus could have interceded for us here on the earth. Jesus could not receive the promise of the Holy Spirit here, however. He made it clear that He had to go away in order for the Comforter to come!

Why is all of this important? I believe it is important because I think that the importance and emphasis of the promise of the Spirit has been neglected among many Word of Faith and other churches. We need to understand that just as it was not good enough for the disciples of Jesus to continue to function under the Old Covenant anointing of Jesus, even though they were doing signs and wonders through their faith in that anointing, we too need not settle to just use our faith for a healing here or there. Jesus turned water into wine through his faith before he was ever anointed! There are GREATER WORKS than we even read about in the gospels available for us today, because the glorified son of God, Jesus, in heaven is capable today of more than he ever was in his earth walk! That means he can use you and reveal himself in you in a way we have NEVER seen before.

Okay, I suppose that's the main body of what I wanted to share. I have a lot of other scriptures, but I don't want to make this any longer. What I am looking for here, is before I begin to teach this, do any of you all have any reason scripturally to disbelieve this?

Thank you for your time,
Caleb

 

[hhodgson]

Welcome to the WoF forum Caleb,

I may not have the answers you are looking for but I did some research and found some info that is related to what you presented. I'm sure some of my more learned friends can pick up on this. So here is what I have.

When Jesus was baptized, God sent His Holy Spirit and said: "This is my own dear Son, with whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17). Then Jesus went to the desert to be tempted and the Bible says, "He was full of the Holy Spirit" (Luke 4:1). The question is, "Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit in Him before He was baptized, or did He receive the Spirit only in that moment?" The mystery of the Trinity is amazing because also He had to go to the Heaven after He rose from the death and only then could He send the Holy Spirit to the disciples.

Scripture does not give us enough information to positively answer this question, "Was Jesus already filled with the Holy Spirit at His baptism?" Yet the gospel of Luke tells us that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from "birth."

For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb. (Luke 1:15)

Was John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit all the time?..... Before Pentecost, the Holy Spirit never lived inside a person all the time – continuously. The Holy Spirit did not remain permanently in a person until the New Testament. That is why Jesus said He was going to send the Holy Spirit (John 16:7). Something new was going to occur. Saul is one example where the Holy Spirit did not remain (1 Sam. 10:6; 16:14) and King David is another. In fact, King David feared the Lord would take the Holy Spirit from him (Ps. 51:11). Today, the Holy Spirit lives inside a Christian forever. This is implied in the great promise of God (Heb. 8:7-13).

When the Holy Spirit came upon, not in, an Old Testament saint the manifestations or miracles of the Spirit did not always occur. When Samson grew up the "Spirit of the LORD began to stir him" (Judges 13:24-25). It is not until later occasions that the "Spirit of the LORD came upon him mightily" (Judges 14:6, 19; 15:14). The presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of Old Testament saints did not mean they performed wonders or miracles. So the Holy Spirit could have "come on" John the Baptist, the forerunner of the Messiah - Jesus Christ - at birth and yet the Spirit may not have remained. It is also possible the power of the Spirit did not occur until he was an adult.

If the Holy Spirit "came on" John the Baptist at birth, the Holy Spirit could have come "on" Jesus at birth. But we do not know if that happened since the New Testament does not explicit say so. None of the gospels explicitly say that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit before His baptism, however the bible does say that, "For in Christ dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Col 2:9) This is a direct reference to the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. He had the fullness of God's nature in him.

Filled At His Baptism. "Did Jesus do miracles by His own power as God or did He depend on the Holy Spirit?" The Old Testament tells us that the Holy Spirit was to rest on Jesus during His ministry on this earth.

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isa. 11:2)

At this point we could ask, "Why did the Holy Spirit need to rest on Him if He was God?" The answer is found in Philippians 2:7 where we are told that Jesus did not come to earth in His divine glory (Matt. 17:1-5). He did not come knowing everything (Matt. 24:36). In fact, He came as a human baby who had to physically and intellectually grow and increase in wisdom. The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him. (Luke 2:40)

Jesus was both God and human. But in order to experience life as a human, Jesus limited the free use of His divine powers or prerogatives. This is the message of (Philippians 2:5-8).... He also chose to depend on the power of the Holy Spirit for His ministry. In Luke, Jesus seems to imply that He needed the Holy Spirit to do miracles.

One day He was teaching; and there were some Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem; and the power of the Lord was present for Him to perform healing. (Luke 5:17)

Living By The Holy Spirit. Other scriptures reveal that Jesus depended on the power of the Holy Spirit in His ministry The table below shows that Jesus did miracle after miracle by the power of the Spirit. He even died and returned to life by the power of the Spirit.

I believe that Jesus received the fullness of the spirit while operating in the old covenent. He was the only one that could IMHO. We receive the same fullness and the power of the spirit that came on the Church on the Day of Pentecost. Jesus said, "But you shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you." (Acts 1:8)

Again, I hope this helps......

Blessings....
______________
a friend,

Harry

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I've never shared this before, as any time the Lord shows me something I've never heard taught, I must be sure before I say anything. I think that I can be sure, but I would like to put it before others that will answer according to the Word. So here goes:

Jesus, in his earth ministry, did not have the promise of the Holy Spirit as we do today. Jesus functioned under an Old Covenant anointing of the Spirit. (Acts 10:38)

We see this occurring in Matthew 3:16, "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

This event marked the beginning of the ministry of Jesus when the Holy Spirit came UPON him. Though Jesus was sinless, He still was not glorified. He still had to fulfill every "jot and tittle" of the law. John 7:39 declares that the reason the Spirit was not yet given was because Jesus was not yet glorified. It was dependent upon Jesus to be glorified that the Spirit would come. This means that Jesus could NOT have had the promise of the Spirit as we have today: that is the indwelling presence of God that would never leave him nor forsake him. If he had the Spirit already, there was no need for him to be glorified!

Furthermore, if Jesus had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit as we do today, why did he cry out on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" We know from a multitude of scriptures that the promise of the Holy Spirit means He comes and lives with us forever! (John 14:16) This gift is permanent. He will not leave a true believer. Ever. If Jesus had this gift before his cross, then that would mean the Holy Spirit had left him at the cross. This would mean the Holy Spirit could leave us too. This is of course NOT the case. At the cross, the Holy Spirit simply withdrew his mighty anointing from Jesus as Jesus was made to be dead with our sin.

If Jesus had the promise of the Spirit as we do today, then the temple veil would have been torn at the birth of Christ, as the Holy Spirit left the temple and came to reside in the glorified Christ. This was not the case. The veil was torn at the death of Christ. His death tore down the veil that separated God from man. God could not take up residence fully inside of a man until the law was fulfilled... every "jot and tittle." The law stood between God and man. The law cried for man's blood: "There is none righteous, no not one." (Romans 3:10)

Jesus, even though he was the Son of God, as a man, had to fulfill all the righteousness of the law before he could be glorified and receive the eternal promise of the Holy Spirit. He had to prove his righteousness and then pay the penalty for the sin of mankind so that he could impart to us that righteousness. And impart to us that eternal Holy Spirit as well!

You could only receive the Holy Spirit after your spirit has been glorified as a member of the Body of Christ. There was no glorified Body of Christ until after the cross. Jesus could NOT have had the Spirit as we do today.

I personally believe that this is why Jesus said in John 14:12, " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

There is one very specific action that is mentioned in the Bible that Jesus did when he went unto the Father. We find it in Acts 2:33, on the day of Pentecost, "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Some say these greater works are just because Jesus is now interceding for us, and Jesus didn't have himself interceding for us at the right hand of God. I disagree. While the present day ministry of Christ interceding for us at the right hand is a powerful and wonderful fact, Jesus could have interceded for us here on the earth. Jesus could not receive the promise of the Holy Spirit here, however. He made it clear that He had to go away in order for the Comforter to come!

Why is all of this important? I believe it is important because I think that the importance and emphasis of the promise of the Spirit has been neglected among many Word of Faith and other churches. We need to understand that just as it was not good enough for the disciples of Jesus to continue to function under the Old Covenant anointing of Jesus, even though they were doing signs and wonders through their faith in that anointing, we too need not settle to just use our faith for a healing here or there. Jesus turned water into wine through his faith before he was ever anointed! There are GREATER WORKS than we even read about in the gospels available for us today, because the glorified son of God, Jesus, in heaven is capable today of more than he ever was in his earth walk! That means he can use you and reveal himself in you in a way we have NEVER seen before.

Okay, I suppose that's the main body of what I wanted to share. I have a lot of other scriptures, but I don't want to make this any longer. What I am looking for here, is before I begin to teach this, do any of you all have any reason scripturally to disbelieve this?

Thank you for your time,
Caleb

Hi Caleb. I'm glad to see that you obviously put some serious thought into this subject and are trying to back it up with scripture.

I do have issue with the thought that you are putting forth here, though.

I do not have time at this moment to put together a response, but I will try to find time to focus on this in the next few days. Hopefully others will give you some feedback in the meantime.

 

[now faith]

This question is of no use unless you belive in the trinity. They are one and yet 3 to much for us to fully comprehend. In Genisis God said let us make man referring to a conversation between more than one. Christ did not need to receive the Holy spirit because he is The Holy spirit also God is a spirit and became flesh and dwelt among us. Emanuel God with us, out of the trinity the Holy spirit seems by many the most challenging to comprehend. The veil was not torn until by his blood salvation was for all and those who accepted this gift could now enter into the presence of God. Christ in crying out was due to being separated from the father due to the remission of sin and God the father cannot look upon sin. Christ was sinless and with God always during his death he bore our sins. But logic would dictate the trinity as one was not separated until the cross. You cannot receive that in which you are.during his resurrection they then became one again. We sometime look at Moses at the burning bush as speaking to God the father who said his name was I am that I am. Then Christ stating before Abraham was I am. Much of the teaching today seems to place Christ in total human form and imply he was a prophet sent by God who was spiritually conceived.they tend to shy away that he was god in the flesh. So they place him into a limited state relying on provision in human sense thus he would have needed the Holy spirit as any man would to heal raise the dead ect. But remember his words I must leave but I will not leave you comfort less I will send the comforter .but he being God could have destroyed the earth with a wave of his hand. With the trinity there is no division, and it's not by chance that man being made in his image possesses a spirt body and soul and yet we are one as well with the exception that man does not seek to understand this concept very often and understand the most important aspect that we can converse with God in the same n manor

 

[tturt]

Since Yeshua raised the dead while on earth, there is no greater works in terms of healing the physical body than that. Could greater works mean more occurrences?

 

[now faith]

Since Yeshua raised the dead while on earth, there is no greater works in terms of healing the physical body than that. Could greater works mean more occurrences?

Indeed Paul raised a young man who had fallen from a high place in the temple after falling asleep. I belive so due to Christ time here their have been many mighty works done in the past 2000 years

 

[theTruthful77]

Thank you Harry for the very thoughtful response. You were very thorough and your scriptural references really helped me take some more things into account. One question: Do the "filled with the Spirit" references imply they were literally filled inside? Perhaps someone with a bit more knowledge of the meanings of the original there could help. I just wonder because of how the book of Acts delineates Stephen as a man "full of the Holy Spirit." Well, many believers were full of the Holy Spirit. Did it just mean he was more full of His Will? More submitted than others?

@Bob, I'm definitely interested in what you have to share. Looking forward to it when you have the time!



@now faith,

im not sure i can completely agree with you for several different reasons, but i'll share a few of the scriptures that immediately come to mind.

John 30:31,32
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

This one seems to me to imply that Jesus was not walking in his divine capacity as God, but he really came as a man completely. He emptied himself of his divine privileges.

Luke 2:49-52
And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

This passage indicates Jesus actually GREW in wisdom and in favor with God. That would seem to imply that he had to study the scriptures and learn and use his faith just like the rest of us. As he did so, Jesus the man pleased his heavenly Father more and more. We know that the only way to please God is through faith.

Luke 22:41-42
And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

This passage indicates that Jesus as a man had his own separate will from His Father. Jesus himself has a unique spirit which is different from the spirit of the Father. Like all of us, he had to subject the will of his spirit to the will of His Father's spirit.

Then also I believe these two passages indicate the nature of Jesus as a man:

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The Bible says that God cannot be tempted and yet it says Jesus was in all points tempted like as we are. Again, it would appear Jesus came as a man, not exercising himself as God.

For clarification, I am in NO WAY saying that Jesus is not God. Jesus is the Word of God and the Word of God is God. Jesus is God. No doubt. But when he came to the earth, I believe he did so entirely as a man as these passages seem to me to indicate. This would also mean that Jesus the man needed to be anointed by the Holy Spirit by his heavenly Father. So we have Acts 10:38, "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him." If Jesus is the Holy Spirit as you say, why did he need to be anointed by him? Thoughts??

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

@now faith,

im not sure i can completely agree with you for several different reasons, but i'll share a few of the scriptures that immediately come to mind.

John 30:31,32
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

This one seems to me to imply that Jesus was not walking in his divine capacity as God, but he really came as a man completely. He emptied himself of his divine privileges.

Luke 2:49-52
And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

This passage indicates Jesus actually GREW in wisdom and in favor with God. That would seem to imply that he had to study the scriptures and learn and use his faith just like the rest of us. As he did so, Jesus the man pleased his heavenly Father more and more. We know that the only way to please God is through faith.

Luke 22:41-42
And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

This passage indicates that Jesus as a man had his own separate will from His Father. Jesus himself has a unique spirit which is different from the spirit of the Father. Like all of us, he had to subject the will of his spirit to the will of His Father's spirit.

Then also I believe these two passages indicate the nature of Jesus as a man:

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The Bible says that God cannot be tempted and yet it says Jesus was in all points tempted like as we are. Again, it would appear Jesus came as a man, not exercising himself as God.

For clarification, I am in NO WAY saying that Jesus is not God. Jesus is the Word of God and the Word of God is God. Jesus is God. No doubt. But when he came to the earth, I believe he did so entirely as a man as these passages seem to me to indicate. This would also mean that Jesus the man needed to be anointed by the Holy Spirit by his heavenly Father. So we have Acts 10:38, "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him." If Jesus is the Holy Spirit as you say, why did he need to be anointed by him? Thoughts??

Caleb, I agree with everything you say here. While Jesus is God, fully, He did set aside His divine attributes (Phil 2:7) to become man. God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.

Jesus was none of these. He walked from town to town and the Gospels only show him in one place at a time, so He's not omnipresent; He did not know things outside of the revelation of the Holy Spirit, like when the woman with the issue of blood touched Him and He asked "who touched me??" Was He playing games? No; He simply didn't know. He felt power leave Him. So we have no omniscience. And, for one, it took two tried to heal the blind man who saw men like trees...so much for omnipotence.

Jesus did not walk sinless on this earth BECAUSE He was God; He simply followed what His Father's will for Him was, and He stayed away from sin. He was fully a man who was sinless.

And we can certainly see at His baptism that Jesus stood on the banks, the Holy Spirit descended and the Father's voice (and thus the Father) came from heaven. Jesus was not walking as the full Trinity here on earth (but this alone will not preclude the idea that He was filled with the Holy Spirit). So from the point of view of who Jesus was as He walked this earth, kudos. This post of yours is right on.

 

[theTruthful77]

Thank you Bob for the support. I agree with you 100% as well about the woman with the issue of blood reference. I believe Jesus only knew what the Holy Spirit revealed to him.

In fact, I believe from a legal standpoint, our redemption demanded that our savior be FULLY man. Where the first Adam failed, the Last Adam prevailed. God had given the earth to man in Genesis 1:26, "Over all the earth, and over every creeping thing upon the earth." A man had to get it back.

Though I have heard some say, if this is true, then what about today? Is Jesus in heaven God or Man? I believe that there is no disconnect between the two now. God and Born Again Man are not two different races. They are in the same class. The son of a horse is a horse. The son of God is a god. Only one of them is Father, of course.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

In fact, I believe from a legal standpoint, our redemption demanded that our savior be FULLY man. Where the first Adam failed, the Last Adam prevailed. God had given the earth to man in Genesis 1:26, "Over all the earth, and over every creeping thing upon the earth." A man had to get it back.

To be clear, Jesus was FULLY man and he was also FULLY God -- His nature was still unchanged, although He laid aside certain divine abilities. His limitations here on earth make that clear. But it is important to the nature of God to note that He never ceased being God.

And I agree that Jesus had to be FULLY man to make a perfect, sinless sacrifice. For a perfect and sinless sacrifice as God, fully endowed with His divine attributes, would have been ... well, cheating -- something that could not possibly fail. Jesus, in all points, was tempted and as such could have fallen to temptation (because He was FULLY man). But He resisted, and He chose the Father's will instead of His own human desire. In all points He lived righteously.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

This question is of no use unless you belive in the trinity.

This is moot, since none of us are Oneness. I think I can say we all believe in the Trinity.

Christ did not need to receive the Holy spirit because he is The Holy spirit also God is a spirit and became flesh and dwelt among us.

No. God is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Becuase the three persons of the Godhead are God, this does NOT mean that the Father IS the Son and these ARE the Holy Spirit. No. They are distinct persons that are One God. Jesus is NOT the Holy Spirit. But Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God (and the Father is God). Jesus is not the Father who is not the Holy Spirit who is not Jesus.

The veil was not torn until by his blood salvation was for all and those who accepted this gift could now enter into the presence of God.

This is true. The veil was a seperation between man and God. No one could look upon the glory of God and live. But when Jesus died (not when He received the Holy Spirit) was that pathway to God opened. It was when Jesus paid for our sins, being made sin for us, that we obtained His righteousness and thus were made perfect and sinless in God's eyes (see 1 John 3:9) and thus could enter into the Holy of Holies, to enter into the throne room of God.

Christ in crying out was due to being separated from the father due to the remission of sin and God the father cannot look upon sin. Christ was sinless and with God always during his death he bore our sins. But logic would dictate the trinity as one was not separated until the cross.

Yikes! No. The Trinity (which again is the three persons of God being One God, Father, Son and Spirit) was never and will never be separated. Ever. Not before the cross, not after (and not at the cross).

When we talk about Jesus being separated from the Father we are talking about Jesus becoming our sin (2 Cor 5:21). As you state, the Father can not look upon our sin. The Father turned His back on that sin, and thus on Jesus. Some say (me for one) that at this moment Jesus died spiritually. He would be reborn at the resurrection -- the firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18) -- the first born-again man. But at no time did Jesus cease to be God. At no time was the Godhead "broken" or "separated" from Itself.

That's just my quick explanation, in case it seemed to superficial.

 

[A Sojourner]

Hello brothers, much grace to you all!!

Looking through the posts on this subject I didn't see these two verses, so I'll share them as I believe they are relevant.

Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way:His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, was found to be with child of the Holy Spirirt.
Matt. 1:20 But while he pondered these things, behold an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which has been begotten in her is of the Holy Spirirt.

Even though Christ was born of Mary, He was a child of the Holy Spirit. His conception, origin, and source was the Holy Spirit( begotten of the Holy Spirit). The birth of our Christ was directly of the Holy Spirit. Through Mary, He put on the human nature, now possessing both divinity and humanity.

In Christ,
A Sojourner

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I've never shared this before, as any time the Lord shows me something I've never heard taught, I must be sure before I say anything.

First, I must say that this would be a very heavy mantle to bear. Of course there is "I've never heard" and there's "it's never been taught," I guess. So it could be limited hearing. But to teach some doctrine that you have not heard...well, I'm glad you are taking this with caution. (The subject of whether Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit HAS been breached before, btw.)

Jesus, in his earth ministry, did not have the promise of the Holy Spirit as we do today. Jesus functioned under an Old Covenant anointing of the Spirit. (Acts 10:38)

We see this occurring in Matthew 3:16, "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

This event marked the beginning of the ministry of Jesus when the Holy Spirit came UPON him. Though Jesus was sinless, He still was not glorified. He still had to fulfill every "jot and tittle" of the law. John 7:39 declares that the reason the Spirit was not yet given was because Jesus was not yet glorified. It was dependent upon Jesus to be glorified that the Spirit would come. This means that Jesus could NOT have had the promise of the Spirit as we have today: that is the indwelling presence of God that would never leave him nor forsake him. If he had the Spirit already, there was no need for him to be glorified!

One thing we have to ask is what attributes does the Holy Spirit bring to us when we are born-again and/or filled with the Spirit?

As you quote in Matthew 3:16 above, and as was stated in other posts in this thread, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three seperate persons in the Godhead. They are distinct. At Jesus baptism we actually see/hear them in the same place at the same time as three persons.

One reference here, that the Holy Spirit descended "like a dove" (which is in all 4 Gospels, although Luke adds "descended in bodily form like a dove") and the reference in Acts 2 where the Holy Spirit "appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire." In other words, we can't get caught up on the Holy Spirit being a dove or being fire. He was like as a dove and like as of fire. I believe these are inferences of Jesus as the Prince of Peace, anointed of God; and the apostles being violently transformed into warriors for the Gospel, respectively.

Again, it is important to note in Matthew 3:16 that the Holy Spirit does not simply appear (to show the Trinity) but physically lights upon Jesus. In Matthew the Holy Spirit is shown "alighting upon Him;" Mark and Luke simply say the Holy Spirit "descended upon Him;" while John inserts the telling phrase "and [the Holy Spirit] remained upon Him.

The word translated "upon" is the Greek word epi. It can mean a number of things: upon, at, towards, above, have charge of, in, over, through(-out), with, etc. So we can't simply (ever!) take the English translation and do a word study with emphasis on ONLY the ENGLISH word. If we stop at "upon" we do the original meaning violence. Of course, simply reading Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's accounts of Jesus baptism does not rule out "upon" either (in fact the translators chose this word!).

Furthermore, if Jesus had the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit as we do today, why did he cry out on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" We know from a multitude of scriptures that the promise of the Holy Spirit means He comes and lives with us forever! (John 14:16) This gift is permanent. He will not leave a true believer. Ever. If Jesus had this gift before his cross, then that would mean the Holy Spirit had left him at the cross. This would mean the Holy Spirit could leave us too. This is of course NOT the case. At the cross, the Holy Spirit simply withdrew his mighty anointing from Jesus as Jesus was made to be dead with our sin.

I disagree with the conclusions here. First, I think the Holy Spirit did indeed "light" upon Jesus as a sign that He came to indwell in Him. I think that when Jesus "became sin for us" (1 Cor 5:21) that the Holy Spirit did indeed leave Him, for at that moment Jesus represented all our sin and was taking the punishment meant for us if we were to remain lost in our sin. He would carry those sins to hell (an uninhabitable place (ref. Lev 16)). And it would be the Father who would send the Spirit to raise Jesus from the dead (Acts 13:34; Psalm 22; Psalm 30:3).

And while it is true that once we receive the Holy Spirit, He will never leave us, Jesus was here to die the sacrifice that made that true. The Holy Spirit indwells us when we are born again, when our sin has been covered and paid for; at the moment when we are reckoned sinless before the eyes of God. At that moment on the cross, when Jesus was made to be sin for us, the Holy Spirit could not bide with Him. The Son had a job to do -- take the sin away to the uninhabitable place and deposit it far from the repentant sinner -- and it isn't until that job has been completed that the Holy Spirit can make abode with Jesus (or us) again. Once the sin is paid for, the Holy Spirit will come and live with us forevermore.

If Jesus had the promise of the Spirit as we do today, then the temple veil would have been torn at the birth of Christ, as the Holy Spirit left the temple and came to reside in the glorified Christ. This was not the case. The veil was torn at the death of Christ. His death tore down the veil that separated God from man. God could not take up residence fully inside of a man until the law was fulfilled... every "jot and tittle." The law stood between God and man. The law cried for man's blood: "There is none righteous, no not one." (Romans 3:10)

The veil was a representation of the division between man and God. Man couldn't walk into His presence because of our sinful condition. The High Priest could only do this once a year and this only after he made atonement for his own sins and the sins of his family (ref. Lev 16). Once the High Priest was cleansed, then he could enter the Holy of Holies, into the manifest presence of God, and finish the sacrifice for the people. If he took his own atonement lightly, then entering the Holy of Holies would lead to his death (and men would pull him out with a rope tied about his waist).

The veil was not a symbol of indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So its being rent or not only had to do with the relationship between man and God. This relationship was ONLY repaired when Jesus took our sins and paid the price for them and took them far from us. Then righteousness was imputed to us and we are seen as sinless (1 John 3:9) and have the ability to enter the presence of the Lord (ie: to go behind the veil into the Holy of Holies).

Jesus, even though he was the Son of God, as a man, had to fulfill all the righteousness of the law before he could be glorified and receive the eternal promise of the Holy Spirit. He had to prove his righteousness and then pay the penalty for the sin of mankind so that he could impart to us that righteousness. And impart to us that eternal Holy Spirit as well!

Amen.

You could only receive the Holy Spirit after your spirit has been glorified as a member of the Body of Christ. There was no glorified Body of Christ until after the cross. Jesus could NOT have had the Spirit as we do today.

And this is where the misnomer appears in your argument. For you reduce Jesus to being just a man. Jesus was the "hinge point," if you will, for all of humanity. He was FULLY man and FULLY God. He did leave His divine attributes aside, which did not relieve Him of Godhood but rather only of the INHERENT power of the Godhood. He needed the power to work through the Holy Spirit in Him to be effective, just as we do today. If you can visualize it, instead of looking at the cross as a single transformation point (which it is for man) look at Jesus (His whole life -- or at the least, His three year ministry) as this transformation point. Jesus had the full ability we have today, and He showed it perfectly without reproach and without error. He walked sinless.

The OT saint had the same benefit, except that without the Holy Spirit indwelling, they could not acheive. But there are many who are seen as righteous and walking upright (see Job, Abraham, Noah, etc.) The OT saint only had to follow all the Law, and they would be righteous -- but they couldn't. They are a picture of our NEED for the Holy Spirit. They had the covering of the blood of bulls and goats at the Atonement. They had the opportunity to walk upright and follow the commandments of God. But they were sinful, fallen man and simply could not. This is what the OT shows us.

Jesus, on the other hand, was not a fallen, sinful man. He walked sinless. Not because He was God, but because He did the will of the Father and walked in that will. He was a man who fulfilled the Law. But He showed that this was possible, for us today, because the Holy Spirit indwelled Him and walked with Him and lead Him and revealed to Him, etc.

I personally believe that this is why Jesus said in John 14:12, " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

There is one very specific action that is mentioned in the Bible that Jesus did when he went unto the Father. We find it in Acts 2:33, on the day of Pentecost, "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Some say these greater works are just because Jesus is now interceding for us, and Jesus didn't have himself interceding for us at the right hand of God. I disagree. While the present day ministry of Christ interceding for us at the right hand is a powerful and wonderful fact, Jesus could have interceded for us here on the earth. Jesus could not receive the promise of the Holy Spirit here, however. He made it clear that He had to go away in order for the Comforter to come!

Do you feel that Jesus and the Holy Spirit could not be here together, with the first century believers? I think that the coming of Jesus to pay for our sins, and the coming of the Holy Spirit to give us power and promise have been separated for this very reason: to show that man, born again and filled with the Holy Spirit, has been given the ability to do the very things that Jesus did: heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead. The disciples did these things BEFORE JESUS' DEATH. A manifestation of the Spirit in action, but not indwelling yet in them. In other words, the Spirit was at work in the earth even then. What Jesus sent to us is the Holy Spirit indwelling within us at all times, not just in one-shot bursts.

Why is all of this important? I believe it is important because I think that the importance and emphasis of the promise of the Spirit has been neglected among many Word of Faith and other churches. We need to understand that just as it was not good enough for the disciples of Jesus to continue to function under the Old Covenant anointing of Jesus, even though they were doing signs and wonders through their faith in that anointing, we too need not settle to just use our faith for a healing here or there. Jesus turned water into wine through his faith before he was ever anointed! There are GREATER WORKS than we even read about in the gospels available for us today, because the glorified son of God, Jesus, in heaven is capable today of more than he ever was in his earth walk! That means he can use you and reveal himself in you in a way we have NEVER seen before.

I do agree with you here: the importance and emphasis of the promise of the Spirit has been neglected -- or else we would see more of the healing, the casting out, and the raising. People like Wigglesworth saw these promises fulfilled in their ministries, but we have become lax in this generation. Yes, I do agree with you here. Amen!

Well, that's a smattering of answers. I'm sure you might not agree fully, but that's what we're here for: discussion!! Praise God for His Holy Word and for the Holy Spirit and His leading and revelation in our lives. I pray these discussions will prove fruitful!

 

[now faith]

Quite a theological question, you know when a child is born he has no blood from his mother it is the fathers blood that runs in his veins. I belive Christ was sinless due to his divine conception, we can't ride the fence on this was he God made flesh.John ch 1 verses 1through 18. Also in his contention with the pharisees, before Abaraham was I Am. There seems to be a movement to remove the divinity of Jesus, you can find less references in some newer translations of the bible. The Muslim faith belives Jesus was a major profit who was immaculately conceived but not God, as the Jehovah Wittness . I belive he suffered and became flesh for our sakes,but even satan knew the legions of angels would keep him from dashing his foot. As a child he was found teaching mature scholars in the temple. Christ was part of the trinity even in flesh of man.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Quite a theological question, you know when a child is born he has no blood from his mother it is the fathers blood that runs in his veins. I belive Christ was sinless due to his divine conception, we can't ride the fence on this was he God made flesh.John ch 1 verses 1through 18. Also in his contention with the pharisees, before Abaraham was I Am. There seems to be a movement to remove the divinity of Jesus, you can find less references in some newer translations of the bible. The Muslim faith belives Jesus was a major profit who was immaculately conceived but not God, as the Jehovah Wittness . I belive he suffered and became flesh for our sakes,but even satan knew the legions of angels would keep him from dashing his foot. As a child he was found teaching mature scholars in the temple. Christ was part of the trinity even in flesh of man.

Is this in response to any particular post?

Phillipians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
​

I don't see that anyone here is taking divinity away from Jesus. But as Paul says to the Phillipians: Jesus "made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men." Note that this is in context just after it is affirmed that Jesus was in the form of God and considered it not robbery to be equal with God.

So what is this "no reputation?" In WoF circles we teach that this means that Jesus laid aside His divine attributes. This does not mean that He gave up His divinity, but just the attributes while He was a man here on earth. Do you contest this? Answer the omni-'s.

Jesus became like man, in the flesh, with all the temptations against Him that we face. But He kept His mind on the will of His Father in heaven and lived sinless.

God exalted Him. Why was this necessary? If Jesus was not placing Himself at a lower form, then He needs no exaltation. But Jesus gave up certain divint attributes (not divinity itself). He lived and acted as a man, yet sinless. He crushed the efforts of the enemy against man by showing that we can live within this righteousness, and that we have this authority against the enemy (note: he told the disciples in Luke 10:18 that we have this authority BEFORE His death on the cross).

Jesus was exalted and given the name which is above every name: at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

No, Jesus did not give up His Godhood; He did not give up His place in the Trinity; He did not give up His divinity. He did, though, set aside His ability to act omnipotently in those attributes. He worked miracles through the power and glory of the Father; He received revelation through the working of the Holy Spirit. Fully man, fully God -- yet having placed His divine attributes aside so that He would not use them to overcome, thus proving that a man, walking in the will of the Father and in sinless righteousness, could make payment for the sins of mankind through all generations.

 

[now faith]

This is moot, since none of us are Oneness. I think I can say we all believe in the Trinity.


No. God is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Becuase the three persons of the Godhead are God, this does NOT mean that the Father IS the Son and these ARE the Holy Spirit. No. They are distinct persons that are One God. Jesus is NOT the Holy Spirit. But Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God (and the Father is God). Jesus is not the Father who is not the Holy Spirit who is not Jesus.


This is true. The veil was a seperation between man and God. No one could look upon the glory of God and live. But when Jesus died (not when He received the Holy Spirit) was that pathway to God opened. It was when Jesus paid for our sins, being made sin for us, that we obtained His righteousness and thus were made perfect and sinless in God's eyes (see 1 John 3:9) and thus could enter into the Holy of Holies, to enter into the throne room of God.


Yikes! No. The Trinity (which again is the three persons of God being One God, Father, Son and Spirit) was never and will never be separated. Ever. Not before the cross, not after (and not at the cross).

When we talk about Jesus being separated from the Father we are talking about Jesus becoming our sin (2 Cor 5:21). As you state, the Father can not look upon our sin. The Father turned His back on that sin, and thus on Jesus. Some say (me for one) that at this moment Jesus died spiritually. He would be reborn at the resurrection -- the firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18) -- the first born-again man. But at no time did Jesus cease to be God. At no time was the Godhead "broken" or "separated" from Itself.

That's just my quick explanation, in case it seemed to superficial.

Well I think we agree, unless we want to look up OT and NT to references as to there being one God, logic dictates that if God cannot look upon sin or be joined with sin and Christ bore and became Sin how could they have not been separated until the resurrection? My only theory would be the Holy Spirit maintaining a link. And this is relevant to the debate as to Christ having the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit..... But Christ said unless I go the comforter cannot come to you. Thanks Bob catch up soon.

 

[now faith]

Is this in response to any particular post?

Phillipians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
​

I don't see that anyone here is taking divinity away from Jesus. But as Paul says to the Phillipians: Jesus "made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men." Note that this is in context just after it is affirmed that Jesus was in the form of God and considered it not robbery to be equal with God.

So what is this "no reputation?" In WoF circles we teach that this means that Jesus laid aside His divine attributes. This does not mean that He gave up His divinity, but just the attributes while He was a man here on earth. Do you contest this? Answer the omni-'s.

Jesus became like man, in the flesh, with all the temptations against Him that we face. But He kept His mind on the will of His Father in heaven and lived sinless.

God exalted Him. Why was this necessary? If Jesus was not placing Himself at a lower form, then He needs no exaltation. But Jesus gave up certain divint attributes (not divinity itself). He lived and acted as a man, yet sinless. He crushed the efforts of the enemy against man by showing that we can live within this righteousness, and that we have this authority against the enemy (note: he told the disciples in Luke 10:18 that we have this authority BEFORE His death on the cross).

Jesus was exalted and given the name which is above every name: at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

No, Jesus did not give up His Godhood; He did not give up His place in the Trinity; He did not give up His divinity. He did, though, set aside His ability to act omnipotently in those attributes. He worked miracles through the power and glory of the Father; He received revelation through the working of the Holy Spirit. Fully man, fully God -- yet having placed His divine attributes aside so that He would not use them to overcome, thus proving that a man, walking in the will of the Father and in sinless righteousness, could make payment for the sins of mankind through all generations.

The revelantcy was for the question posed did Christ have the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit, my point was if he did not from birth thus he would not be included in the trinity, taking that point diminishes his divinity. Your friend ....John

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Well I think we agree, unless we want to look up OT and NT to references as to there being one God, logic dictates that if God cannot look upon sin or be joined with sin and Christ bore and became Sin how could they have not been separated until the resurrection?

They were separated. And this separation is the definition of spiritual death -- separation from Father God. It does not mean Jesus ceased being God; doesn't mean Jesus was not part of the Trinity any longer. No, Jesus was still very much God; but He was separated from the Father and the Spirit. But the person of Jesus in the Godhead was separated from the person of the Father in the Godhead. Jesus became our sin and He took it down into hell, into the uninhabitable place to cast it away.

My only theory would be the Holy Spirit maintaining a link. And this is relevant to the debate as to Christ having the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit..... But Christ said unless I go the comforter cannot come to you. Thanks Bob catch up soon.

If you look at the scripture of Jesus being raised, you will see that the Father raised Jesus. But there is a scripture that tells us that the Father sent the Spirit to raise up Jesus. So we can see that the Spirit was NOT with Jesus in hell, but only went there on the command of the Father to raise Jesus from the depth of hell.

Jesus was not a sinner (void of the Spirit) who became righteous (able to house the Spirit); but rather He was righteous with the Spirit and was made to be sin (a condition that the Spirit would not live in). The Spirit would later descend to raise Jesus up.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

, my point was if he did not from birth thus he would not be included in the trinity, taking that point diminishes his divinity.

I'm not clear on what you are saying here. Jesus did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from birth. The Holy Spirit is seen descending upon Him at His baptism. Did the Spirit leave Him for a moment so that He (the Spirit) could then come back?

Further this does no violenct to the Trinity. Father, Son and Spirit are three separate persons in the One Godhead. One God, three persons. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, yet both are persons that make up One God.

Jesus NEVER ceased to be part of the Trinity -- even when He was separated from the Father, He was still part of the Trinity. And nothing in this discussion jeapardizes the divinity of Christ. He is divine. Phillipians 2 tells us He laid aside divine ATTRIBUTES, not His divinity.

 

[now faith]

I'm not clear on what you are saying here. Jesus did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from birth. The Holy Spirit is seen descending upon Him at His baptism. Did the Spirit leave Him for a moment so that He (the Spirit) could then come back?

Further this does no violenct to the Trinity. Father, Son and Spirit are three separate persons in the One Godhead. One God, three persons. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, yet both are persons that make up One God.

Jesus NEVER ceased to be part of the Trinity -- even when He was separated from the Father, He was still part of the Trinity. And nothing in this discussion jeapardizes the divinity of Christ. He is divine. Phillipians 2 tells us He laid aside divine ATTRIBUTES, not His divinity.

If Jesus never ceased being part of the trinity ,that would constitute a continual spiritual link between the three. So due to his divine nature yes I agree he put aside his Power to walk as the lamb to full fill the law, at his baptism this was a baptism of his human form. But it cannot be both never ceasing yet receiving ,it would have to be receiving the Holy Spirit in his human body.