Did Jesus drink alcohol?

[&Abel]

I haven't read most of this thread but I wanted to comment anyways

the idea that the wine mentioned in the bible was actually grape juice is fairly.....(don't really wanna be insulting)

drunkeness is mentioned many times in the bible so obviously alcohol had been "discovered" for one thing

for 2 this is gods word...he dosen't sugar coat the truth or confuse ppl by saying one thing and meaning another(well the word does have many many different meanings depending on the person and when they read)

and then theres the idea that maybe something was lost in translation...I know very little about the original bible but I do believe the spirit was involved with the translations

I'm also reminded of 2 quotes

"let no one talk evil of what for you is a good thing"

and at the same time

"do not let what is good for you become a stumbling block to the weak"

not exact quotes but I believe I've captured the meaning(tho I suppose there is no set in stone meaning of anything in the word...its all about personal perspective)

just my 2 cents on this subject

 

[lesliedellow]

Yes, Jesus drank wine. There is no reason to suppose that the New Testament said wine when they meant grape juice.

 

[laconicstudent]

Yes, Jesus drank wine. There is no reason to suppose that the New Testament said wine when they meant grape juice.

I'll never forget this one time me and some other guys on my dorm floor were watching family guy, and a girl who was kinda passing through gave us a random angry sermon on it that somehow culminated that wine in the Bible equals grape juice.

Yes, Jesus drank wine.

 

[Dionysiou]

lol what does it matter if he did or didnt? He made wine lol

 

[Chris81]

Jesus drank wine. However, wine was consumed differently than in our time. The normal consumption of wine typically required dilution, with 3 or 4 parts water for every one part of wine. This was necessary to sanitize the water as it was very unhealthy to drink. Diluting wine in the fashion I described also would have made it difficult to become intoxicated. Ancient people did drink straight wine but not as part of normal consumption.

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus drank wine. However, wine was consumed differently than in our time. The normal consumption of wine typically required dilution, with 3 or 4 parts water for every one part of wine. This was necessary to sanitize the water as it was very unhealthy to drink. Diluting wine in the fashion I described also would have made it difficult to become intoxicated. Ancient people did drink straight wine but not as part of normal consumption.

That's not true. Where did you get your "facts" from?

Take a walk down the aisle of a supermarket and look for Manishewitz wine. The Passover wine is approved by rabbis according to tradition and Law. No grape juice.

 

[sunlover1]

Jesus drank wine. However, wine was consumed differently than in our time. The normal consumption of wine typically required dilution, with 3 or 4 parts water for every one part of wine. This was necessary to sanitize the water as it was very unhealthy to drink. Diluting wine in the fashion I described also would have made it difficult to become intoxicated. Ancient people did drink straight wine but not as part of normal consumption.

I'd be interested to know more about htis process Chris, because as I
seriously LOVE wine, but because the Bible says "don't be drunk with
wine which is in excess but be filled rather with the Spirit" I limit myself
to a glass or two. As it is I do sometimes add sprite but it doesnt taste
right with all types of wine.

That's not true. Where did you get your "facts" from?

Take a walk down the aisle of a supermarket and look for Manishewitz wine. The Passover wine is approved by rabbis according to tradition and Law. No grape juice.

Gene!

 

[Chris81]

That's not true. Where did you get your "facts" from?

Take a walk down the aisle of a supermarket and look for Manishewitz wine. The Passover wine is approved by rabbis according to tradition and Law. No grape juice.

When did I ever say grape juice? I only said the wine is diluted, study ancient history and how the people of that time consumed wine instead of basing your beliefs from your visit at the supermarket.

 

[Chris81]

I'd be interested to know more about htis process Chris, because as I
seriously LOVE wine, but because the Bible says "don't be drunk with
wine which is in excess but be filled rather with the Spirit" I limit myself
to a glass or two. As it is I do sometimes add sprite but it doesnt taste
right with all types of wine.


Gene!

I enjoy wine and likewise limit my consumption of wine to one or two glasses. I will include some historic references regarding the dilution of wine later today. If you use some common sense it would make sense that one could not hydrate themselves on purely just straight wine, you would become drunk. Likewise you can't drink just water as it is dangerous for your health. The solution is water and wine.

 

[GenemZ]

When did I ever say grape juice? I only said the wine is diluted, study ancient history and how the people of that time consumed wine instead of basing your beliefs from your visit at the supermarket.

Well... look at what the Bible says.

The Lord's table served diluted wine? Really? That was suggested to Timothy because of his stomach problems. But? If it was already diluted by custom?

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because
of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.​

If it were the custom, why even suggest he dilute it? Just tell him to drink wine. And? At the communion table at Paul's ministry? Why was he not having his churches following your so called custom?

1 Corinthians 11:20-22
When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper
you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without
waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another
gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?
Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those
who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise
you for this? Certainly not!​

Some were getting drunk. Why? REAL wine!

France has a tradition of wine with food because the water was bad. They did not dilute with water. And, they did not become a nation of drunks either.

Its this kind of prudishness that turns off many who need to know Christ. It may make the one who already believed feel righteous about himself via legalism. But, it only serves to turn off those who have self control and are seeking Christ. But, the Christ they are presented? Makes them feel that they can not know Christ.

When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper
​

you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead
​

without waiting for anybody else.
​

One remains hungry,
another gets drunk. ​

Paul's Churches used REAL wine! Paul would have told them to dilute it with water, not to save some for others. Instead, he told them they should eat and drink in their homes before hand so as to not over indulge when its free at church service.

Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?
Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those
who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise
you for this? Certainly not!
​

Know the culture of the Bible. Know the thinking (mind) of Christ. Become a true witness.


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[sunlover1]

France has a tradition of wine with food because the water was bad. They did not dilute with water. And, they did not become a nation of drunks either.

If you drink wine daily with your meals, wouldn't you build up some sort
of 'tolerance' in that you could drink more than someone who is not
accustomed to drinking wine? Drink more without becoming tipsy

 

[Chris81]

Well... look at what the Bible says.

The Lord's table served diluted wine? Really? That was suggested to Timothy because of his stomach problems. But? If it was already diluted by custom?

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because
of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.​

If it were the custom, why even suggest he dilute it? Just tell him to drink wine. And? At the communion table at Paul's ministry? Why was he not having his churches following your so called custom?

1 Corinthians 11:20-22
When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper
you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without
waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another
gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?
Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those
who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise
you for this? Certainly not!​

Some were getting drunk. Why? REAL wine!

France has a tradition of wine with food because the water was bad. They did not dilute with water. And, they did not become a nation of drunks either.

Its this kind of prudishness that turns off many who need to know Christ. It may make the one who already believed feel righteous about himself via legalism. But, it only serves to turn off those who have self control and are seeking Christ. But, the Christ they are presented? Makes them feel that they can not know Christ.

When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper ​

you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead ​

without waiting for anybody else. ​

One remains hungry, ​

another gets drunk. ​

Paul's Churches used REAL wine! Paul would have told them to dilute it with water, not to save some for others. Instead, he told them they should eat and drink in their homes before hand so as to not over indulge when its free at church service.

Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?
Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those
who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise
you for this? Certainly not!​

Know the culture of the Bible. Know the thinking (mind) of Christ. Become a true witness.


In Christ, GeneZ

Ha, Ha, Ha reading your response I am characterized as a legalistic teetotaler that made up some theory regarding the dilution of wine during ancient times to rationalize Jesus' drinking of wine.

The reason I believe that people of ancient times normally consumed wine that was first diluted is not out of some sort of dogmatic teetotaler belief but rather because it simply is ancient tradition to dilute wine. I hope to convince you of my position if not this will give you something to think about.

In ancient times the most extensive accounts of people diluting wine as a normal practice comes from the ancient Greeks.

Homer in the Odyssey mentions wine drank in a ratio of 20 parts water to one part wine.

A quotation from a play by Aristophanes reads:

“‘Here, drink this also, mingled three and two.’ Demus. ‘Zeus! But it’s sweet and bears the three parts well!’” ​

The poet Euenos, who lived in the fifth century B.C., is also quoted:

The best measure of wine is neither much nor very little;​

For ‘tis the cause of either grief or madness.
It pleases the wine to be the fourth, mixed with three nymphs. ​

​

In your post you stated that the bible uses the word 'wine' and not 'diluted wine'. That is true but in ancient times they often used the term wine to refer to wine that was first diluted with water.

Plutarch (Symposiacs III, ix), for instance, states:​

“We call a mixture ‘wine,’ although the larger of the component parts is water.”​

Additionally wine that is not diluted is often called strong wine or strong drink. The term “wine” or oinos in the ancient world, then, did not mean wine as we understand it today but wine mixed with water. Usually a writer simply referred to the mixture of water and wine as “wine.” To indicate that the beverage was not a mixture of water and wine he would say “unmixed (akratesteron) wine.”​

You might be asking me if there is any evidence in the bible in which a distinction was made between wine and strong drink? Actually there are several. In Leviticus 10:8, 9, we read, “And the LORD spoke to Aaron, saying, ‘Drink no wine nor strong drink, you nor your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting. . . .'" This distinction is found also in Deuteronomy 14:26; 29:6; Judges 13:4, 7, 14; First Samuel 1:15: Proverbs 20:1; 31:4,6: Isaiah 5:11, 22; 28:7; 29:9; 56:12; and Micah 2:11.​

The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia (Vol. 12, p. 533) states that in the rabbinic period at least “‘yayin’ [or wine] ‘is to be distinguished from ‘shekar’ [or strong drink]: the former is diluted with water (mazug’); the latter is undiluted (‘yayin hal’).” ln the Talmud, which contains the oral traditions of Judaism from about 200 B.C.to A.D.200, there are several tractates in which the mixture of water and wine is discussed. One tractate (Shabbath 77a) states that wine that does not carry three parts of water well is not wine. The normal mixture is said to consist of two parts water to one part wine. In a most important reference (Pesahim 108b) it is stated that the four cups every Jew was to drink during the Passover ritual were to be mixed in a ratio of three parts water to one part wine. From this we can conclude with a fair degree of certainty that the fruit of the vine used at the institution of the Lord’s Supper was a mixture of three parts water to one part wine. In another Jewish reference from around 60 B.C.we read, “It is harmful to drink wine alone, or again, to drink water alone, while wine mixed with water is sweet and delicious and enhances one’s enjoyment” (II Maccabees 15:39).


In New Testament times should we assume that the consumption of wine was any different than in the Old Testament. There is nothing that speaks definitively, within the New Testament Bible, that speaks of how wine was consumed during the time of Jesus. However, we do have a great deal of writings from the early church fathers that speaks of this very issue.

Justin Martyr around A.D.150 described the Lord’s Supper in this way: “Bread is brought, and wine and water, and the president sends up prayers and thanksgiving” (Apology 1, 67, 5). Some sixty-five years later Hippolytus instructed the bishops that they shall “eucharistize [bless] first the bread into the representation of the Flesh of Christ; and the cup mixed with wine for the antitype of the Blood which was shed for all who have believed in Him” (Apostolic Tradition XXIII, 1).

Unmixed wine and plain water at the Lord’s Supper were both found unacceptable. A mixture of wine and water was the norm. Earlier in the latter part of the second century Clement of Alexandria stated:

It is best for the wine to be mixed with as much water as possible. . . . For both are works of God, and the mixing of the two, both of water and wine produces health, because life is composed of a necessary element and a useful element. To the necessary element, the water, which is in the greatest quantity, there is to be mixed in some of the useful element [Instructor II, ii, 23.3—24.1].​

​

So there you have it, wine as it was understood during ancient times, was understood to be a mixture of wine and water. Undiluted wine is understood to be strong drink. Is there anything wrong with drinking wine as we do today? Of course not, as long as we drink responsibly. Understanding how Jesus and people of his time drank wine is not a mater of religious dogma but of having the correct understanding of the historical context.

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus drank wine. However, wine was consumed differently than in our time. The normal consumption of wine typically required dilution, with 3 or 4 parts water for every one part of wine. This was necessary to sanitize the water as it was very unhealthy to drink. Diluting wine in the fashion I described also would have made it difficult to become intoxicated. Ancient people did drink straight wine but not as part of normal consumption.

That was not the practice of the Jews that I know of. Paul had to first recommend to Timothy to add some wine to his water. What you are saying, is that it would have already been water as they knew it in their day. And, he would be adding diluted wine with water, to water. Makes no sense.

But, this I will add. The rabbis at one point made sure to boil the sacred wine that was to be used for the Sabbath celebration. The unboiled wine was what the pagans used for their rituals which involved getting drunk as part of their ritual. So, to prevent the sacred wine from being used by pagans for their rituals, the rabbis at one point made sure that the sacred Sabbath wine was boiled so the pagans could not use what was sacred for pagan religion.

Leviticus 10:9
Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

​

The Egyptians had invented strong drinks. Not like we know today, but quite potent. The Jews took with them knowledge of Egyptian ways. If what you said were true? Leviticus 10:9 was telling them they had to drink bad water if they were thirsty. Wine meant the fruit of the vine which was fermented. I still say if that were the accepted practice, Timothy would not have to been told to add some wine to his water.

 

[Chris81]

That was not the practice of the Jews that I know of. Paul had to first recommend to Timothy to add some wine to his water. What you are saying, is that it would have already been water as they knew it in their day. And, he would be adding diluted wine with water, to water. Makes no sense.

Actually, that seems to indicate that adding wine to water was a well known method for sanitation.

The New Testament does not make the same clear cut distinctions between a diluted wine mixture and the straight wine 'strong drink' mixture as the Old Testament. One could assume that when the author spoke of wine in the New Testament they could have meant both diluted wine or just purely straight wine. This is rather not clear, however it was normal practice in ancient times to dilute wine and the Talmud indicates that it was Jewish tradition to dilute wine. Further the early church fathers speak of the early traditions of the church to serve diluted wine during the sacrament of communion.

So what to make of Paul recommending to Timothy that he should add wine to the water. I don't see any reason it was not straight wine that was added to the water. As I stated in my first post, I do understand that purely straight wine was consumed in biblical times. The many verses in the bible that speak out against drunkenness would not be necessary if straight wine was not consumed and was a recurring problem. However, I contend that in the normal consumption of day to day drinking of wine, the people of ancient times would have drank a water and wine mixture.

But, this I will add. The rabbis at one point made sure to boil the sacred wine that was to be used for the Sabbath celebration. The unboiled wine was what the pagans used for their rituals which involved getting drunk as part of their ritual. So, to prevent the sacred wine from being used by pagans for their rituals, the rabbis at one point made sure that the sacred Sabbath wine was boiled so the pagans could not use what was sacred for pagan religion.

Wow, that is very interesting and that is a bit of Jewish tradition that I never knew.

Leviticus 10:9​

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
​

​

The Egyptians had invented strong drinks. Not like we know today, but quite potent. The Jews took with them knowledge of Egyptian ways. If what you said were true? Leviticus 10:9 was telling them they had to drink bad water if they were thirsty. Wine meant the fruit of the vine which was fermented. I still say if that were the accepted practice, Timothy would not have to been told to add some wine to his water.

Regarding God's command to Aaron and his sons to not drink wine nor strong drink before entering the tabernacle in Leviticus 10:9, I don't know that drinking bad water is the only alternative remaining if they were thirsty. At some point I would assume that if the wine component of the water mixture is too small it no longer is considered wine. Additionally adding wine to water is not the only way to sanitize water. The water they would be allow to drink could have first been boiled. ​

 

[GenemZ]

Actually, that seems to indicate that adding wine to water was a well known method for sanitation.

When were germs discovered? Not then. They had no concept of such things. Now, if the Lord commanded them to add wine to their water? They would have sanitized the water without realizing what was taking place.

So what to make of Paul recommending to Timothy that he should add wine to the water. I don't see any reason it was not straight wine that was added to the water. As I stated in my first post, I do understand that purely straight wine was consumed in biblical times. The many verses in the bible that speak out against drunkenness would not be necessary if straight wine was not consumed and was a recurring problem.

Does it say do not get drunk on strong drink? Or, wine? You should try this some time. Go get a good bottle of wine. Dilute it with water to the proportions you say was done. Taste it. You call that wine???

However, I contend that in the normal consumption of day to day drinking of wine, the people of ancient times would have drank a water and wine mixture.

Some might have. But I do not think they would call it wine.

Jesus warned of placing new wine in old wine skins. That is because the fermentation process of the new wine would expand the already stretched old wineskin and burst it.

They kept that wine in the wineskin and would drink from it until finished. They did not add water to it. They drank directly from the wineskin as a way of drinking during the day. They would hold it up and drink as the opening would allow the wine to flow into their mouths. They would then seal up the wineskin. That would keep the air out and prevent the wine from spoiling. Cups were used for special meals, but not always.

​

Now.. people in France all drink regular wine in the normal course of the day and you do not find a nation of drunks. Matter of fact, you find a people who eat fatty foods and have healthy circulatory systems as a rule. In contrast. You have a much higher incidence of heart trouble with wine forbidding Baptists. A scientist made this correlation several years back. That is when doctors began recommending a glass of red wine with a meal is good for you. And, it is.

Regarding God's command to Aaron and his sons to not drink wine nor strong drink before entering the tabernacle in Leviticus 10:9, I don't know that drinking bad water is the only alternative remaining if they were thirsty. At some point I would assume that if the wine component of the water mixture is too small it no longer is considered wine.

Then, the Bible would not refer to it as wine.

Additionally adding wine to water is not the only way to sanitize water. The water they would be allow to drink could have first been boiled.

Boiling? You are assuming too much.. They had no concept of germs back then. Sanitizing by boiling is a rather modern scientific understanding. They knew that boiling destroyed the element that causes one to get drunk. But that was probably discovered by accident. Not with scientific know how.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[laconicstudent]

Genez is pretty much entirely correct.


I honestly don't grasp why people get so upset with *gasp* Jesus drinking wine with as high an alcohol content as we have today.

 

[GenemZ]

Genez is pretty much entirely correct.


I honestly don't grasp why people get so upset with *gasp* Jesus drinking wine with as high an alcohol content as we have today.

They prohibitionists become like an uptight believer who refuses to have relations with his wife because the Bible prohibits fornication. The Bible prohibits getting drunk, not drinking responsibly. Red wine is good for the health of the human heart.

Those in authority refuse to leave personal responsibility in the hands of the believer priest. The responsibility we have been called to have before the Lord.

If believers can be likened as autonomous states with a federal church, the prohibitionists refuse states rights. Yes, some people have a control problem with drink. They need to learn personal responsibility before the Lord. In this area they need to take up their cross and grow up, not comparing their weakness with others who do not share in it.

When the prohibition bug bites a church it becomes the irresponsible (weak) controlling the responsible (strong). Those who accept responsibility in that case are not allowed to grow up and to benefit from their ability to self govern. That's spiritual socialism. Legalism.

Yet, when in public when around the weak in faith we are to abstain as to not hinder the walk of the weak one who is growing in Christ. That does not count for the religious type

(and... it's oppression and lifelessness of legalism that can drive you to drink!)

 

[GenemZ]

The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia (Vol. 12, p. 533) states that in the rabbinic period at least “‘yayin’ [or wine] ‘is to be distinguished from ‘shekar’ [or strong drink]: the former is diluted with water (mazug’ the latter is undiluted (‘yayin hal&#8217.” ln the Talmud, which contains the oral traditions of Judaism from about 200 B.C.to A.D.200, there are several tractates in which the mixture of water and wine is discussed. One tractate (Shabbath 77a) states that wine that does not carry three parts of water well is not wine. The normal mixture is said to consist of two parts water to one part wine. In a most important reference (Pesahim 108b) it is stated that the four cups every Jew was to drink during the Passover ritual were to be mixed in a ratio of three parts water to one part wine. From this we can conclude with a fair degree of certainty that the fruit of the vine used at the institution of the Lord’s Supper was a mixture of three parts water to one part wine. In another Jewish reference from around 60 B.C.we read, “It is harmful to drink wine alone, or again, to drink water alone, while wine mixed with water is sweet and delicious and enhances one’s enjoyment” (II Maccabees 15:39).

That may have become the cultural trend (legalism) because Israel had such problems with national alcoholism in its past. But, its not the wine that Moses drank.

Try this. I just did. Mix one part wine to three parts water. Taste it. How could the wine taster at the wedding, say Jesus made the best wine? Its so diluted that way, it hardly has any taste!

” ln the Talmud, which contains the oral traditions of Judaism from about 200 B.C.to A.D.200,

Those are the years Jesus warned about! He came to destroy the man made traditions! Israel had a serious problem in its past with many becoming alcoholics. So? That was the legalistic solution. The real solution was having real faith in the Lord.

Isaiah 28:7-9
And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions.
All the tables are covered with vomit
and there is not a spot without filth.
"Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?​

You think they were staggering from three parts water, one part wine?

They would have had to look like pregnant women with bellies about to explode to get that drunk on diluted wine. And, notice it was not called strong drink? Wine. Why not strong drink if wine undiluted was called strong drink?

Strong drink must have been some other concoction they made back then. I remember on the History channel they were explaining how the Egyptians knew how to create a very potent drink called "beer." It was unlike the beer we see today. The Jews lived in Egypt for over 400 years. No connection?

When I used to work up north. The place I worked at was given a sample of a European beer. It came with a special stopper, not a bottle cap. It was (I believe) a French beer of special quality. It looked like beer when poured. I could only taste a little bit because it tasted like a mixed drink. It was very potent!

200 BC? 200AD? Those years? Jesus came to refute the legalism and the traditions of men that the religious leaders had turned the Jews into. Instead of making men accountable to God by faith? They made men accountable to rules and regulations of men. They diluted the wine so much it made it near impossible for anyone to get drunk. And, you do not hear of the beer the Jews once had mentioned in Jesus day either.



In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Carian]

The New American Standard Bible uses the words "strong drink" instead of "beer"


And yep, I'm in the UK, where beer is real ale.

Wines have got stronger in recently years.

 

[GenemZ]

The New American Standard Bible uses the words "strong drink" instead of "beer"

A good translator should be very knowledgeable of the days in which the Bible was written. Strong drink may have been an indicator of a beer-like beverage, so some translators decided to make it less likely to be misunderstood. That reason being.. "strong drink" today implies a mixed drink of the type that did not exist when the Bible was written.

And yep, I'm in the UK, where beer is real ale.

If its fresh and unpasteurized, its a health food when drinking in moderation.

Grace and peace, GeneZ