Did Jesus Die for Our Sins?

[MountainPine]

Part 1

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for sins of mankind, and the Bible makes it seemingly so. But is the atonement doctrine really compatible with scripture? In this thread, the issue of sacrifice examined in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. I will be quoting from The Scriptures by the Institute for Scripture Research (ISR), which is a Messianic translation of the Bible.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

“The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:17

But the Israelites did not want to repent, rather they wanted to sacrifice animals as a license to keep sinning, and that's why Moses commanded the Israelites to make routine sacrifices. This is why no one can be saved under the Law, because the law of sacrifice was for sinners. Those who practice routine sacrifices remain in a state of sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

“And Yahweh said to Mosheh, “I have seen this people, and see, it is a stiff-necked people!” Exodus 32:9

“When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. “For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.” Psalm 95:9-10

“Thus said Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your slaughterings and eat meat. “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, about matters of burnt offerings or slaughterings. “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’ “But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in the counsels, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.” Jeremiah 7:21-24

David and the prophets testified that God hates sacrifice.

“Then Shemu’el said, “Does Yahweh delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of Yahweh? Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.” 1 Samuel 15:22

“For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

“Since Ephraim has made many altars for sin, they have been altars for sinning to him. “I have written for him numerous matters of My Torah – they were regarded as strange. “As for My offerings: they slaughter flesh and they eat. Yahweh shall not accept them. Now does He remember their crookedness and punish their sins. Let them return to Egypt!” Hosea 8:11-13

“I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. “Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings. “Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I do not hear the sound of your stringed instruments. “And let right-ruling roll on like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.” Amos 5:21-24

“With what shall I come before Yahweh, bow myself before the high Elohim? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Is Yahweh pleased with thousands of rams or ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my being? He has declared to you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahweh require of you but to do right, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your Elohim?” Micah 6:6-8

“Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Gomorrah! “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares Yahweh. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood. “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil! “Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. “Come now, and let us reason together,” says Yahweh. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. “If you submit and obey, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword,” for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.” Isaiah 1:10-20

“But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations. “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.” Isaiah 66:3-4

“Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire; You have opened my ears; Burnt offering and sin offering You did not ask for. Then I said, “See, I have come; In the scroll of the Book it is prescribed for me. I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart” Psalm 40:6-8

“I do not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your pens. “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. “I know all the birds of the mountains, And all moving in My field are Mine. “If I were hungry, I would not speak to you; For the world is Mine, and all that fills it. “Do I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? “Offer thanksgiving to Elohim, And pay your vows to the Most High. “And call upon Me in the day of distress – Let Me rescue you, and you esteem Me.” Psalm 50:9-15

“For You do not desire slaughtering, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:16-17

Even Christ himself was opposed to sacrifice. He quoted Hosea:

“But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13

“And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.” Matthew 12:7

 

[MountainPine]

Part 2

All God ever wanted from anyone was repentance and obedience, and He always forgave anyone who repented from their sin. He has told the Israelites over and over again to turn from their wickedness and turn to Him. Didn't God forgive the Ninevites when they repented (Jonah 3)? It is absurd to believe that God would have refused to forgive anyone unless the blood of His son was shed. So why does it seem that the New Testament authors testify it?

Obviously, we cannot have it both ways. We cannot assume that God wanted mercy AND demanded His Son to be offered as a sacrifice. God does not change his mind. One of these claims has to be false, and logic demands that the latter is false.

There are many passages in the New Testament that suggest that the Messiah's death was an atonement for sins, but let us examine these passages and apply a different interpretation to them – an interpretation that will not contradict the Old Testament.

Let's begin with John 3:16:

“For Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-forth Son, so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but possess everlasting life.”

One would immediately focus on the word “gave” and interpret it to mean “God created Jesus to be put to death for our benefit.” Instead of this, try interpreting the word “gave” as “God sent his Son to an extremely dangerous environment where it was certain he would be murdered for preaching the truth.” This interpretation agrees with the rest of the accounts of both the Old and New Testaments.


“[E]ven as the Son of Adam did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:28

“Ransom” is the key word here. A ransom is a payment made to free hostages. If we subscribe to the atonement doctrine, then clearly the ransom that Jesus paid was to God himself. If this was the case, then this would mean that God is a malicious, blood-thirsty tyrant who holds all people prisoner until he gets what he wants, which is the murder of an innocent man.

Consider instead that the ransom Christ pays is to the god of this world, Satan. That is to say, by his lies and malicious teachings (of which was the teachings of the Pharisees was that which Christ directly combated during His ministry), Satan has ensnared the whole world. The only way to break his spell over people was for Christ to preach the truth, and for people to see him resurrected. The resurrection was important because it established his teachings and confirmed his promise of everlasting life to those who believe in Him.

“For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 26:28

On the surface this can mean His blood is shed, thus sins are forgiven. But there is a deeper meaning to it. His blood is shed → He is resurrected → His followers are sealed with certainty in the truth of his teachings and gives them the willingness to spread them no matter what the personal cost → this combination of faith in Christ's teachings and righteous actions in spreading the Gospel lead to forgiveness of sins and salvation for those who believe.

The second interpretation being that his blood is a metaphor for his family of disciples (Matthew 12:50) being “shed” or “poured out” as in poured out into the world preaching the Word so that anyone who hears and believes it will repent and be forgiven.


“For when we were still weak, Messiah in due time died for the wicked. For one shall hardly die for a righteous one, though possibly for a good one someone would even have the courage to die. But Elohim proves His own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Messiah died for us. Much more then, having now been declared right by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” Romans 5:6-9

When the wicked hear the message of the Gospels they will repent from their wickedness to be forgiven. They would hear that the Messiah was resurrected as a reward for obedience (Hebrews 5:8-9), therefore they would also turn to obedience/righteousness to merit the same reward. Notice Paul uses the word “were” which is conveying the past-tense, meaning they are no longer sinners, but have repented and are now saved from God's wrath.


“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.” 1 Peter 2:24

Romans 8:3 says that he “condemned sin in the flesh,” which means that when he “bore our sins” it means that he destroyed our sins. Only this makes sense considering what the rest of the verse says. What need is there to "live for righteousness" if Jesus did all the work for us through his death? Verse 21 says “For to this you were called, because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps.” What excuse do Christians have?


“Therefore, coming into the world, He says, “Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.” Hebrews 10:5

This is quoted from Psalm 40:6, however, Psalm 40:6 doesn't mention “but a body You have prepared for Me.” This is evidence that the Bible has been tampered with by the clergy of the early Roman church in order to incorporate their malicious atonement doctrine into the Bible.


“And, according to the Torah, almost all is cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Hebrews 9:22

As mentioned earlier, the Israelites who were under the Law had to make sacrifices for atonement, and they were bound to it because they didn't want to stop sinning. The death of Christ, though, was the death of sin to those who believed.

“For Messiah has not entered into a Set-apart Place made by hand – figures of the true – but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf, not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Set-apart Place year by year with blood not his own. For if so, He would have had to suffer often, since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself.” Hebrews 9:24-26

There are only two passages in scripture that actually say that the Messiah's death was an atoning sacrifice:

“whom Elohim set forth as an atonement, through belief in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His tolerance Elohim had passed over the sins that had taken place before to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He is righteous and declares righteous the one who has belief in Yahushua.” Romans 3:25-26

“And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.” 1 John 2:2

In this case, Christ's death was an atonement only in the sense that those who believe consider his death necessary for his resurrection which gives them certainty that they would be rewarded if they repent, and if they do they are saved.

In conclusion the Messiah died and was resurrected to demonstrate the reward for righteousness and obedience to the Word. Sinners who hear the Word and believe that God raised Him from the dead will turn to obedience to obtain the same reward, thus repenting from their sins to be forgiven and sin no more. This is the actual meaning to the rest of the verses that seemingly support the atonement doctrine, which are:

1 Corinthians 15:3; Ephesians 1:7, 2:13; Colossians 1:14, 20; Hebrews 9:14, 13:12, 20; Revelation 1:5, 7:14, 12:11

 

[MountainPine]

Part 3

What about Isaiah 53? Christians think it refers to Christ. The chapter describes a suffering servant whom was “oppressed and afflicted,” “made Himself an offering for guilt,” and “bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors,” and that “God was pleased to crush him.” Christians say this chapter is about Jesus, and Jews say it's about Israel. The truth is that this chapter has both a historical and prophetic interpretation, meaning it's about both Israel and Christ.

The account of this servant begins in chapter 41 when God says that Israel/Jacob is his servant (verse 8) and is repeated in chapters 42-45, 48-49, and 52.

Here are some examples:

“But now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen.” Isaiah 44:1

“For the sake of Jacob My servant, and of Israel My chosen, I also call you by your name, I give you a title, though you have not known Me.” Isaiah 45:4

“And He said to Me, ‘You are My servant, O Israel, in whom I am adorned” Isaiah 49:3

Israel was originally supposed to be a set-apart nation of priests to teach the Torah unto the nations (Exodus 19:5-6). Israel being the righteous servant of Yahweh, had knowledge of the Torah and justified many (Isaiah 53:11) to all who listened, but the nations (Gentiles) were wicked in their ways. So when it says “he was despised” it means that Israel was despised by the Gentiles because they blamed Israel for their treatment.

“Bore the sins of many” and “God laid on him the iniquity of us all” should not be interpreted literally. In the Torah, the Levitical priests were commanded to “bear the iniquity” for the Israelites' sin, lest the Israelites bear their own sins and die (Numbers 18:22-23), but this does not mean the priests died in their stead. It means they were in charge of purging the sin.

In the same way, Christ “bore the sins of many”, meaning he was in charge of purging the sins, and he did so by preaching the Word: “by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many”

Christians think that Isaiah 53 is prophesying an atonement sacrifice because the contemporary English translations read “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our crookednesses.” for verse 5, and “For the transgression of My people He was stricken.” for verse 8, and they think it implies substitution – that this servant died in the stead of everyone else because they have sinned.

The problem with this notion is that both the Hebrew Masoretic text and the Greek Septuagint actually read “because of” – meaning the sins of the people is what caused the servant to be stricken. The set-apart nation of Israel was damaged and destroyed because of the Israelites' apostasy.

Verse 9 reads: “And He was appointed a grave with the wrong, and with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was deceit in His mouth”

Isaiah had a negative view on the rich because in those days the rich stole from others and oppressed the poor. Babylon is the “rich," which took the Israelites into captivity, and Israel as a nation died there. Israel made his grave with the wicked – he died along with the wicked nations that were also conquered by Babylon, such as Philistia, Egypt, Moab, Edom, and more. (Jeremiah 25)

Verse 9 also refers to Christ in a metaphorical sense due to the fact that “no violence or deceit was found in His mouth.” His grave was an isolated tomb which they gave to wicked men, as righteous men were buried with their fathers.

Isaiah 53:9 is quoted by Peter in his epistle (1 Peter 2:22), but is quoted in the prophetic or synchronistical sense, as Christ was a single representation of what the entire nation of Israel was supposed to be when God founded it via Moses. The quotation from Isaiah 53:4 in Matthew 8:17 is also sychronistical. In both cases, neither Peter or Matthew intended for their audience to think that the entire chapter of Isaiah 53 is about Christ.

Isaiah 53 cannot literally be attributed to Christ as evidenced by verse 10:

“But Yahweh was pleased to crush Him, He laid sickness on Him, that when He made Himself an offering for guilt, He would see a seed, He would prolong His days and the pleasure of Yahweh prosper in His hand.”

Where “seed” is read, both the Hebrew word זֶרַע (zera), and the Greek word σπέρμα (sperma) from the Septuagint are used and translated as “sperm” or “sperm”. This implies physical descendants and not so-called “spiritual” or “adopted” descendants as Christians interpret it as.

God crushed or afflicted suffering on the nation of Israel as a way to purge them from sin. A crushed heart and a broken spirit is the offering for guilt (Psalm 51:17). God was pleased to crush their hearts because he wanted Israel to repent. If he (Israel) did so, then he would have his days prolonged and see his seed.

Isaiah did not have Christ in mind when he wrote chapters 52 and 53, he was clearly not describing a future atonement sacrifice for the sins of the world, otherwise the passage would be inconsistent with the previous chapters where it says Israel/Jacob is the servant. However, Isaiah wrote under the inspiration of God, and God did have Christ in mind, and this is why some of the verses have prophetic meaning in relation to Christ, but these prophetic interpretations are syncs.

Isaiah 53 is quoted in Acts 8:32-33 where a eunuch read a passage from it to Philip. Many assume that Philip believed that Isaiah 53 refers to Christ because it says: “I ask you, about whom does the prophet say this, about himself or about some other?” And Philip opening his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, brought to him the Good News: Yahushua!”

But this does not mean that Philip taught the eunuch that Isaiah 53 was about Christ. The Good News was the message of Christ rather than the person of Christ. It is also absurd to think that this event was instantaneous. Philip spent hours explaining to the eunuch about the Good News as they went through the whole book of Isaiah. This is evidenced by verse 36 when the eunuch asks about baptism, in which he got the idea from Isaiah 1:16:

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil!”

If the atonement doctrine were true then that means everyone who has sinned are saved through Jesus whether they believe in him or not.

“But the favourable gift is not like the trespass. For if by the one man’s trespass many died, much more the favour of Elohim, and the gift in favour of the one Man, Yahushua Messiah, overflowed to many.” Romans 5:15

“Many” is interpreted as “all men” by Christians. This means (according to Christians' logic) that ALL men who sin are saved through the Messiah's death whether they are Christians or not because all men have sinned because of Adam's trespass, thus all men will receive favor from God, whether or not they believe.

Traditional Christian doctrine teaches that Jesus became the manifestation of sin on the cross, and by this, Christianity makes Jesus out to be the son of perdition, the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

When Christ recited Psalm 22:1 “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”, it doesn't mean that God actually forsook him because he became sin, it only seemed that way to Christ because of the intense pain he was suffering. The Messiah has never been the manifestation of sin.

The passage in 2 Corinthians 5:21 states:

“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of Elohim.”

But this does not mean that He became the manifestation of sin, it is a metaphor which means that sin was put to death in those who believe in order that the righteousness of God dwell in them. This does not mean that Christ's death removed the punishment for sin. Those who still sin do not have the righteousness of God, regardless if they “believe in Jesus”.

Christians like to say that Jesus died for past, present, and future sins. This is just an outright and deliberate contravention of scripture. They quote Hebrews 10:12 to support this:

“But He, having offered one slaughter offering for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of Elohim”

But as mentioned previously, Hebrews 9:26 states that “He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin”

So Hebrews 10:12 is actually inferring that sin is dead – the sin dwelling in those who heard the Word and believed died when they repented, so they could live righteously, as Romans 6 says that the believers are dead to sin and are alive in Christ.

Anyone who says “Jesus died for my sins” and continues to sin is ideologically constantly impaling Christ to the cross every time they sin, over and over again. It would mean that if you had lived in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, you would have necessarily participated in the Messiah's death so you could be saved. Thus, the people who subscribe to the atonement doctrine are murderers at heart.

“But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?” Luke 6:46

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens. “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’ “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!” Matthew 7:21-23

If one is standing trial for a crime, can one simply bribe the judge with his son's blood and expect to get off the hook? Obviously not. No one dies for anyone else's sin. Sinners die for their own sins.

“Fathers are not put to death for their children, and children are not put to death for their fathers, each is to die for his own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16

“And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to their works. [. . .] And if anyone was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:12, 15

The conclusion is that repentance is what brings the forgiveness of sins, and obedience (faith) is what preserves it; not by condemning an innocent and righteous man to humiliation, torture, and death.

“[T]hough being a Son, He learned obedience by what He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting deliverance to all those obeying Him.” Hebrews 5:8-9

 

[Wgw]

Whereas the atonement is not the only way to understand the passion of our Lord, it is an important oart of that understanding.

See Matthew 26:28

 

[Winken]

@MountainPine

I suggest that you graduate from the Hebrew Bible to what is clearly described in the New Covenant for the Jews, and the Christian Covenant for all of us.

 

[MountainPine]

Whereas the atonement is not the only way to understand the passion of our Lord, it is an important oart of that understanding.

See Matthew 26:28

The passage from Matthew 26:28 has already been addressed. I don't need to look it up.

@MountainPine

I suggest that you graduate from the Hebrew Bible to what is clearly described in the New Covenant for the Jews, and the Christian Covenant for all of us.

I suggest you learn that God never demanded sacrifice, but demanded obedience. That's what the new covenant is about, which is actually the renewed covenant of old.

 

[royal priest]

Part 1

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for sins of mankind, and the Bible makes it seemingly so. But is the atonement doctrine really compatible with scripture? In this thread, the issue of sacrifice examined in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. I will be quoting from The Scriptures by the Institute for Scripture Research (ISR), which is a Messianic translation of the Bible.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

“The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:17

But the Israelites did not want to repent, rather they wanted to sacrifice animals as a license to keep sinning, and that's why Moses commanded the Israelites to make routine sacrifices. This is why no one can be saved under the Law, because the law of sacrifice was for sinners. Those who practice routine sacrifices remain in a state of sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

“And Yahweh said to Mosheh, “I have seen this people, and see, it is a stiff-necked people!” Exodus 32:9

“When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. “For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.” Psalm 95:9-10

“Thus said Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your slaughterings and eat meat. “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, about matters of burnt offerings or slaughterings. “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’ “But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in the counsels, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.” Jeremiah 7:21-24

David and the prophets testified that God hates sacrifice.

“Then Shemu’el said, “Does Yahweh delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of Yahweh? Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.” 1 Samuel 15:22

“For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

“Since Ephraim has made many altars for sin, they have been altars for sinning to him. “I have written for him numerous matters of My Torah – they were regarded as strange. “As for My offerings: they slaughter flesh and they eat. Yahweh shall not accept them. Now does He remember their crookedness and punish their sins. Let them return to Egypt!” Hosea 8:11-13

“I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. “Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings. “Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I do not hear the sound of your stringed instruments. “And let right-ruling roll on like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.” Amos 5:21-24

“With what shall I come before Yahweh, bow myself before the high Elohim? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Is Yahweh pleased with thousands of rams or ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my being? He has declared to you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahweh require of you but to do right, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your Elohim?” Micah 6:6-8

“Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Gomorrah! “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares Yahweh. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood. “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil! “Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. “Come now, and let us reason together,” says Yahweh. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. “If you submit and obey, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword,” for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.” Isaiah 1:10-20

“But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations. “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.” Isaiah 66:3-4

“Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire; You have opened my ears; Burnt offering and sin offering You did not ask for. Then I said, “See, I have come; In the scroll of the Book it is prescribed for me. I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart” Psalm 40:6-8

“I do not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your pens. “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. “I know all the birds of the mountains, And all moving in My field are Mine. “If I were hungry, I would not speak to you; For the world is Mine, and all that fills it. “Do I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? “Offer thanksgiving to Elohim, And pay your vows to the Most High. “And call upon Me in the day of distress – Let Me rescue you, and you esteem Me.” Psalm 50:9-15

“For You do not desire slaughtering, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:16-17

Even Christ himself was opposed to sacrifice. He quoted Hosea:

“But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13

“And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.” Matthew 12:7

Of course God commanded animal sacrifice.
Its institution is implied to have been from the very beginning.
Genesis 3:21
Genesis 4:4
Then, at Sinai, we see it commanded for Israel attached with the purpose thereof (for ceremonial cleansing, and atonement for sin)
Leviticus 1:3-4

But, in Hebrews, it's typology is explained.
Those sacrifices were a type, therefore ineffective in themselves: Hebrews 10:1, Hebrews 10:4
They were a type of Jesus who would offer His body as a sacrifice prepared by the Father. This is the reason God took no delight in those others as they were only types of the fulfillment: Hebrews 10:5-6
Jesus went to the cross as a sacrifice to redeem His people according the will of the Father: Hebrews 10:7-10

 

[timewerx]

PInstead of this, try interpreting the word “gave” as “God sent his Son to an extremely dangerous environment where it was certain he would be murdered for preaching the truth.” This interpretation agrees with the rest of the accounts of both the Old and New Testaments.

This is actually the most logical interpretation, in my opinion which I also agree with!

 

[timewerx]

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

I have been in this situation and it was so heart breaking. It felt like you don't have the right to live and I still believe today that I still haven't earned the right to live. No man or woman could convince me otherwise, only Christ will at the day of judgment.

 

[Wgw]

The passage from Matthew 26:28 has already been addressed. I don't need to look it up.

Unless I'm missing something, you did not actually address it.

 

[MountainPine]

Unless I'm missing something, you did not actually address it.

You definitely missed it. I addressed it in the second post:

“For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 26:28

On the surface this can mean His blood is shed, thus sins are forgiven. But there is a deeper meaning to it. His blood is shed → He is resurrected → His followers are sealed with certainty in the truth of his teachings and gives them the willingness to spread them no matter what the personal cost → this combination of faith in Christ's teachings and righteous actions in spreading the Gospel lead to forgiveness of sins and salvation for those who believe.

The second interpretation being that his blood is a metaphor for his family of disciples (Matthew 12:50) being “shed” or “poured out” as in poured out into the world preaching the Word so that anyone who hears and believes it will repent and be forgiven.

 

[Soyeong]

Part 1

Why do you think that God commanded Israel to make offerings if He didn't want them to do that? The word for "offering" means "to draw close" so the significance is not in slaughtering an animal, but in slaughtering an animal as a means to draw close to God. However, when people gave offerings without drawing close to God, then they were missing the point and making a mockery of it. God always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13). God's law was always meant to be obeyed by faith in a way that built a relationship between God and His people, but it is easy for people to get caught up in doing the actions out of legalism rather than by faith.

Part 2

All God ever wanted from anyone was repentance and obedience, and He always forgave anyone who repented from their sin. He has told the Israelites over and over again to turn from their wickedness and turn to Him. Didn't God forgive the Ninevites when they repented (Jonah 3)? It is absurd to believe that God would have refused to forgive anyone unless the blood of His son was shed. So why does it seem that the New Testament authors testify it?

Obviously, we cannot have it both ways. We cannot assume that God wanted mercy AND demanded His Son to be offered as a sacrifice. God does not change his mind. One of these claims has to be false, and logic demands that the latter is false.

God commanded them to do sacrifices, so if all God wanted was repentance and obedience, then He would have been happy with their sacrifices and wouldn't have disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him, but rather He wanted obedience by faith in a way that built a relationship between Him and His people.

Take a scenario where someone owes you money, but they can't pay you back, so you decide to forgive their debt. However, forgiving their debt is not as simple as just wiping the slate clean because you must also absorb the loss of what you loaned them, so by forgiving them, you are essentially paying their debt for them in their place. When we sin, we incur a debt and what we owe is our life, so the only way for God to forgive us is to pay our debt in our place, which is why it was necessary for God to take mercy on us by sending Jesus to live a sinless life so he could die on the cross in our place for the forgiveness of our sins.

 

[bling]

Part 1

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for sins of mankind, and the Bible makes it seemingly so. But is the atonement doctrine really compatible with scripture? In this thread, the issue of sacrifice examined in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. I will be quoting from The Scriptures by the Institute for Scripture Research (ISR), which is a Messianic translation of the Bible.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

“The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:17

But the Israelites did not want to repent, rather they wanted to sacrifice animals as a license to keep sinning, and that's why Moses commanded the Israelites to make routine sacrifices. This is why no one can be saved under the Law, because the law of sacrifice was for sinners. Those who practice routine sacrifices remain in a state of sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

“And Yahweh said to Mosheh, “I have seen this people, and see, it is a stiff-necked people!” Exodus 32:9

“When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. “For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.” Psalm 95:9-10

“Thus said Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your slaughterings and eat meat. “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, about matters of burnt offerings or slaughterings. “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’ “But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in the counsels, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.” Jeremiah 7:21-24

David and the prophets testified that God hates sacrifice.

“Then Shemu’el said, “Does Yahweh delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of Yahweh? Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.” 1 Samuel 15:22

“For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

“Since Ephraim has made many altars for sin, they have been altars for sinning to him. “I have written for him numerous matters of My Torah – they were regarded as strange. “As for My offerings: they slaughter flesh and they eat. Yahweh shall not accept them. Now does He remember their crookedness and punish their sins. Let them return to Egypt!” Hosea 8:11-13

“I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. “Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings. “Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I do not hear the sound of your stringed instruments. “And let right-ruling roll on like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.” Amos 5:21-24

“With what shall I come before Yahweh, bow myself before the high Elohim? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Is Yahweh pleased with thousands of rams or ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my being? He has declared to you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahweh require of you but to do right, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your Elohim?” Micah 6:6-8

“Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Gomorrah! “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares Yahweh. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood. “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil! “Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. “Come now, and let us reason together,” says Yahweh. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. “If you submit and obey, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword,” for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.” Isaiah 1:10-20

“But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations. “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.” Isaiah 66:3-4

“Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire; You have opened my ears; Burnt offering and sin offering You did not ask for. Then I said, “See, I have come; In the scroll of the Book it is prescribed for me. I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart” Psalm 40:6-8

“I do not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your pens. “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. “I know all the birds of the mountains, And all moving in My field are Mine. “If I were hungry, I would not speak to you; For the world is Mine, and all that fills it. “Do I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? “Offer thanksgiving to Elohim, And pay your vows to the Most High. “And call upon Me in the day of distress – Let Me rescue you, and you esteem Me.” Psalm 50:9-15

“For You do not desire slaughtering, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:16-17

Even Christ himself was opposed to sacrifice. He quoted Hosea:

“But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13

“And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.” Matthew 12:7

I realize this is a huge topic, so it takes lots of word to explain. I will only address some, as a start and continue with more questions. To your first question: Wicked people murdered Christ and Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder was the atonement sacrifice and also a ransom payment to _______?

I am not sure what “scripture” is used to say: “Jesus died for sins of mankind”, since Jesus died for us and not for sin?

First I do not see the Old Testament sacrifices as being a “Penalty for sin”, but it could be described as God’s disciplining for unintentional sins (Lev. 5).

 

[daq]

You definitely missed it. I addressed it in the second post:

“For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 26:28

On the surface this can mean His blood is shed, thus sins are forgiven. But there is a deeper meaning to it. His blood is shed → He is resurrected → His followers are sealed with certainty in the truth of his teachings and gives them the willingness to spread them no matter what the personal cost → this combination of faith in Christ's teachings and righteous actions in spreading the Gospel lead to forgiveness of sins and salvation for those who believe.

The second interpretation being that his blood is a metaphor for his family of disciples (Matthew 12:50) being “shed” or “poured out” as in poured out into the world preaching the Word so that anyone who hears and believes it will repent and be forgiven.

Actually, metaphorically and allegorically speaking, Messiah Yeshua is the true vine and therefore the blood of the Word is likened to the pure blood of the grape, (as opposed to the forbidden blood or even figurative blood of a human being). Drink offerings, wines, covenants, things new and old. On a different point I too like the ISR but wish they would have rather rendered from the GNT Morph Texts, (instead of the horribly mangled Textus Receptus) as even your quote from Matthew 26:28 would not have included kainos, (new-renewed [covenant]) because it only actually appears with a later cup mentioned after the Seder in Luke 22:20, (there are multiple "covenants" being confirmed at the Seder including the Noachic, Mosaic, and Davidic).

 

[bling]

Part 2

All God ever wanted from anyone was repentance and obedience, and He always forgave anyone who repented from their sin. He has told the Israelites over and over again to turn from their wickedness and turn to Him. Didn't God forgive the Ninevites when they repented (Jonah 3)? It is absurd to believe that God would have refused to forgive anyone unless the blood of His son was shed. So why does it seem that the New Testament authors testify it?

Obviously, we cannot have it both ways. We cannot assume that God wanted mercy AND demanded His Son to be offered as a sacrifice. God does not change his mind. One of these claims has to be false, and logic demands that the latter is false.

There are many passages in the New Testament that suggest that the Messiah's death was an atonement for sins, but let us examine these passages and apply a different interpretation to them – an interpretation that will not contradict the Old Testament.

Let's begin with John 3:16:

“For Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-forth Son, so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but possess everlasting life.”

One would immediately focus on the word “gave” and interpret it to mean “God created Jesus to be put to death for our benefit.” Instead of this, try interpreting the word “gave” as “God sent his Son to an extremely dangerous environment where it was certain he would be murdered for preaching the truth.” This interpretation agrees with the rest of the accounts of both the Old and New Testaments.


“[E]ven as the Son of Adam did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:28

“Ransom” is the key word here. A ransom is a payment made to free hostages. If we subscribe to the atonement doctrine, then clearly the ransom that Jesus paid was to God himself. If this was the case, then this would mean that God is a malicious, blood-thirsty tyrant who holds all people prisoner until he gets what he wants, which is the murder of an innocent man.

Consider instead that the ransom Christ pays is to the god of this world, Satan. That is to say, by his lies and malicious teachings (of which was the teachings of the Pharisees was that which Christ directly combated during His ministry), Satan has ensnared the whole world. The only way to break his spell over people was for Christ to preach the truth, and for people to see him resurrected. The resurrection was important because it established his teachings and confirmed his promise of everlasting life to those who believe in Him.

“For this is My blood, that of the renewed covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 26:28

On the surface this can mean His blood is shed, thus sins are forgiven. But there is a deeper meaning to it. His blood is shed → He is resurrected → His followers are sealed with certainty in the truth of his teachings and gives them the willingness to spread them no matter what the personal cost → this combination of faith in Christ's teachings and righteous actions in spreading the Gospel lead to forgiveness of sins and salvation for those who believe.

The second interpretation being that his blood is a metaphor for his family of disciples (Matthew 12:50) being “shed” or “poured out” as in poured out into the world preaching the Word so that anyone who hears and believes it will repent and be forgiven.


“For when we were still weak, Messiah in due time died for the wicked. For one shall hardly die for a righteous one, though possibly for a good one someone would even have the courage to die. But Elohim proves His own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Messiah died for us. Much more then, having now been declared right by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” Romans 5:6-9

When the wicked hear the message of the Gospels they will repent from their wickedness to be forgiven. They would hear that the Messiah was resurrected as a reward for obedience (Hebrews 5:8-9), therefore they would also turn to obedience/righteousness to merit the same reward. Notice Paul uses the word “were” which is conveying the past-tense, meaning they are no longer sinners, but have repented and are now saved from God's wrath.


“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.” 1 Peter 2:24

Romans 8:3 says that he “condemned sin in the flesh,” which means that when he “bore our sins” it means that he destroyed our sins. Only this makes sense considering what the rest of the verse says. What need is there to "live for righteousness" if Jesus did all the work for us through his death? Verse 21 says “For to this you were called, because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps.” What excuse do Christians have?


“Therefore, coming into the world, He says, “Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.” Hebrews 10:5

This is quoted from Psalm 40:6, however, Psalm 40:6 doesn't mention “but a body You have prepared for Me.” This is evidence that the Bible has been tampered with by the clergy of the early Roman church in order to incorporate their malicious atonement doctrine into the Bible.


“And, according to the Torah, almost all is cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Hebrews 9:22

As mentioned earlier, the Israelites who were under the Law had to make sacrifices for atonement, and they were bound to it because they didn't want to stop sinning. The death of Christ, though, was the death of sin to those who believed.

“For Messiah has not entered into a Set-apart Place made by hand – figures of the true – but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf, not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Set-apart Place year by year with blood not his own. For if so, He would have had to suffer often, since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself.” Hebrews 9:24-26

There are only two passages in scripture that actually say that the Messiah's death was an atoning sacrifice:

“whom Elohim set forth as an atonement, through belief in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His tolerance Elohim had passed over the sins that had taken place before to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He is righteous and declares righteous the one who has belief in Yahushua.” Romans 3:25-26

“And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.” 1 John 2:2

In this case, Christ's death was an atonement only in the sense that those who believe consider his death necessary for his resurrection which gives them certainty that they would be rewarded if they repent, and if they do they are saved.

In conclusion the Messiah died and was resurrected to demonstrate the reward for righteousness and obedience to the Word. Sinners who hear the Word and believe that God raised Him from the dead will turn to obedience to obtain the same reward, thus repenting from their sins to be forgiven and sin no more. This is the actual meaning to the rest of the verses that seemingly support the atonement doctrine, which are:

1 Corinthians 15:3; Ephesians 1:7, 2:13; Colossians 1:14, 20; Hebrews 9:14, 13:12, 20; Revelation 1:5, 7:14, 12:11

First off: you do great to realize a ransom payment to God would make God out to be the kidnapper and blood thirsty.

BUT: to say the ransom payment was made to satan, makes God out to be weak and satan to be on an equal plane with God. Is there some unwritten cosmic “law” out there that says a payment has to be made to a kidnapper?

If God has the power to safely take His children back from this thought to be “kidnapper” (satan), would it be wrong for God to unnecessarily pay satan?

The atonement sacrifice is not only described to be “like” a ransom payment, but is literally a “Ransom Payment” as described by Christ, Paul, John, Peter and the Hebrew writer. So who is holding the child of God back (who is the kidnapper?) from the arms of God? Do we blame God, satan, bad luck, or do we blame the person that holds the nonbeliever in a state of disbelieve (the nonbeliever himself)? Does the prodigal son that left the father after virtually said “I wish you were dead” go back to the father or is the young son of the father (a changed person)?

From what Jesus prayed in the garden did God and Christ personally prefer his blood to remain flowing through Christ’s veins?

Is it I who need Christ’s blood out of His veins and flow both over me and inside of me flowing over my heart (this could be experienced with the wine at communion)?

That is a start.

 

[nomadictheist]

Part 1

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for sins of mankind, and the Bible makes it seemingly so. But is the atonement doctrine really compatible with scripture? In this thread, the issue of sacrifice examined in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. I will be quoting from The Scriptures by the Institute for Scripture Research (ISR), which is a Messianic translation of the Bible.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

“The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:17

Let's start by putting this in context. I'll use the ISR Bible since that is what you seem to prefer:
"Deliver me from blood-guilt, O Elohim,Elohim of my deliverance, Let my tongue sing aloud of Your righteousness.15O

, open my lips, And that my mouth declare Your praise.16 For You do not desire slaughtering, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. 17 The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.18 Do good in Your good pleasure to Tsiyon; Build the walls of Yerushalayim. 19 Then You would delight in slaughterings of righteousness, In burnt offering and complete burnt offering; Then young bulls would be offered on Your altar."
The purpose of this Psalm is repentance. God doesn't care for burnt offerings if they are not offered in true repentance.
Yet, the blood is important, as we read in Leviticus:
"And any man of the house of Yisra’el,or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who eats any blood, I shall set My face against that being who eats blood, and shall cut him off from among his people.11 ‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your lives, for it is the blood that makes atonement for the life.’"

And in Hebrews:
"Therefore not even the first covenant was instituted without blood.19 For when, according to Torah, every command had been spoken by Mosheh to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, and scarlet wool,and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which Elohim commanded you.”21 And in the same way he sprinkled with blood both the Tent and all the vessels of the service.22 And, according to the Torah, almost allis cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.23 It was necessary, then, that the copies of the heavenly ones should be cleansed with these, but the heavenly ones them-selves with better slaughter offerings than these.24 For Messiah has not entered into a Set-apart Place made by hand – figures of the true – but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf,25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Set-apart Place year by year with blood not his own.26 For if so, He would have had to suffer often, since the foundation of the world.But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself.27 And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, 28 so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto deliverance."

But the Israelites did not want to repent, rather they wanted to sacrifice animals as a license to keep sinning, and that's why Moses commanded the Israelites to make routine sacrifices. This is why no one can be saved under the Law, because the law of sacrifice was for sinners. Those who practice routine sacrifices remain in a state of sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

Again, let's put this in context:
"For the Torah, having a shadow of the good matters to come, and not the image itself of the matters, was never able to make perfect those who draw near with the same slaughter offerings which they offer continually year by year.2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered? Because those who served, once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins.3But in those offerings is a reminder of sins year by year.4For it is impossible for blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.5Therefore, coming into the world, He says, “Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.6“In burnt offerings and offerings for sinYou did not delight.17“Then I said, ‘See, I come – in the roll of the book it has been written concerning Me – to do Your desire, O Elohim.’ ”8Saying above, “Slaughter and meal offering, and burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor delighted in,” which are offered according to theTorah,9 then He said, “See, I come to do Your desire, O Elohim.” He takes away the first to establish the second.10By that desire we have been set apart through the offering of the body of

Messiah once for all."

“And Yahweh said to Mosheh, “I have seen this people, and see, it is a stiff-necked people!” Exodus 32:9

“When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. “For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.” Psalm 95:9-10

“Thus said Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your slaughterings and eat meat. “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, about matters of burnt offerings or slaughterings. “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’ “But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in the counsels, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.” Jeremiah 7:21-24

David and the prophets testified that God hates sacrifice.

Again, let's start by backing up a bit in Jeremiah 7:
"7“Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Yehudah and in the streets of Yerushalayim?18“The children are gathering wood, the fathers are lighting the fire, and the women are kneading their dough, to make cakes for the sovereigness of the heavens, and to pour out drink offerings to other mighty ones, to provoke Me.19“Is it Me they are provoking?” declares

. “Is it not themselves – unto the shame of their own faces?”20Therefore, thus said the Master

,“See, My displeasure and My wrath is poured out on this place, on man and on beast, and on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it shall burn..."

Now, when you come to the "thus" in verse 21, it is clear why God is not accepting their sacrifices. Because they are not obeying Him. Because they are not bringing the sacrifices in the right heart. Just as God testified of Cain that his sacrifice of grain was not accepted, but that the blood of Abel's lamb was accepted.

“Then Shemu’el said, “Does Yahweh delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of Yahweh? Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.” 1 Samuel 15:22

Indeed - to listen to God is better than to offer blood. If you look at the context of what is happening, again, it is clear why Samuel speaks thus to Saul.
Essentially, Saul had been commanded to kill everything - including every animal - and to take no spoil for himself. He disobeyed God and kept back some animals. When Samuel came and called him out on his sin, Saul told Samuel that he had taken the animals in order to present a burnt offering to the Lord. What you quoted is part of Samuel's response to Saul.

“For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

Indeed. God does not delight in slaughtering animals as sacrifices, except insomuch as it was done in pious obedience rather than ignorant rote.

“Since Ephraim has made many altars for sin, they have been altars for sinning to him. “I have written for him numerous matters of My Torah – they were regarded as strange. “As for My offerings: they slaughter flesh and they eat. Yahweh shall not accept them. Now does He remember their crookedness and punish their sins. Let them return to Egypt!” Hosea 8:11-13


“I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. “Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings. “Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I do not hear the sound of your stringed instruments. “And let right-ruling roll on like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.” Amos 5:21-24

“With what shall I come before Yahweh, bow myself before the high Elohim? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Is Yahweh pleased with thousands of rams or ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my being? He has declared to you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahweh require of you but to do right, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your Elohim?” Micah 6:6-8

“Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Gomorrah! “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares Yahweh. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood. “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil! “Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. “Come now, and let us reason together,” says Yahweh. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. “If you submit and obey, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword,” for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.” Isaiah 1:10-20

“But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations. “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.” Isaiah 66:3-4

“Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire; You have opened my ears; Burnt offering and sin offering You did not ask for. Then I said, “See, I have come; In the scroll of the Book it is prescribed for me. I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart” Psalm 40:6-8

“I do not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your pens. “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. “I know all the birds of the mountains, And all moving in My field are Mine. “If I were hungry, I would not speak to you; For the world is Mine, and all that fills it. “Do I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? “Offer thanksgiving to Elohim, And pay your vows to the Most High. “And call upon Me in the day of distress – Let Me rescue you, and you esteem Me.” Psalm 50:9-15

“For You do not desire slaughtering, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:16-17

Even Christ himself was opposed to sacrifice. He quoted Hosea:

“But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13

“And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.” Matthew 12:7

"But the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many..." (Matthew 20:28)

I would suggest you also carefully study Leviticus 16, which gives detailed instructions for the "day of atonement." In this passage, it is said many times that an animal must be slaughtered for atonement.

I will also finish this post with the following prophecy concerning Messiah:
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;[g]
when his soul makes[h] an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,[j]
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,[k]
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

 

[S. Tellez]

Part 1

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for sins of mankind, and the Bible makes it seemingly so. But is the atonement doctrine really compatible with scripture? In this thread, the issue of sacrifice examined in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. I will be quoting from The Scriptures by the Institute for Scripture Research (ISR), which is a Messianic translation of the Bible.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

“The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:17

But the Israelites did not want to repent, rather they wanted to sacrifice animals as a license to keep sinning, and that's why Moses commanded the Israelites to make routine sacrifices. This is why no one can be saved under the Law, because the law of sacrifice was for sinners. Those who practice routine sacrifices remain in a state of sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

“And Yahweh said to Mosheh, “I have seen this people, and see, it is a stiff-necked people!” Exodus 32:9

“When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. “For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.” Psalm 95:9-10

“Thus said Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your slaughterings and eat meat. “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, about matters of burnt offerings or slaughterings. “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’ “But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in the counsels, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.” Jeremiah 7:21-24

David and the prophets testified that God hates sacrifice.

“Then Shemu’el said, “Does Yahweh delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of Yahweh? Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.” 1 Samuel 15:22

“For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

“Since Ephraim has made many altars for sin, they have been altars for sinning to him. “I have written for him numerous matters of My Torah – they were regarded as strange. “As for My offerings: they slaughter flesh and they eat. Yahweh shall not accept them. Now does He remember their crookedness and punish their sins. Let them return to Egypt!” Hosea 8:11-13

“I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. “Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings. “Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I do not hear the sound of your stringed instruments. “And let right-ruling roll on like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.” Amos 5:21-24

“With what shall I come before Yahweh, bow myself before the high Elohim? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Is Yahweh pleased with thousands of rams or ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my being? He has declared to you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahweh require of you but to do right, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your Elohim?” Micah 6:6-8

“Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Gomorrah! “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares Yahweh. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood. “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil! “Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. “Come now, and let us reason together,” says Yahweh. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. “If you submit and obey, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword,” for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.” Isaiah 1:10-20

“But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations. “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.” Isaiah 66:3-4

“Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire; You have opened my ears; Burnt offering and sin offering You did not ask for. Then I said, “See, I have come; In the scroll of the Book it is prescribed for me. I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart” Psalm 40:6-8

“I do not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your pens. “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. “I know all the birds of the mountains, And all moving in My field are Mine. “If I were hungry, I would not speak to you; For the world is Mine, and all that fills it. “Do I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? “Offer thanksgiving to Elohim, And pay your vows to the Most High. “And call upon Me in the day of distress – Let Me rescue you, and you esteem Me.” Psalm 50:9-15

“For You do not desire slaughtering, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:16-17

Even Christ himself was opposed to sacrifice. He quoted Hosea:

“But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13

“And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.” Matthew 12:7

 

[S. Tellez]

Pastors or theologians are being challenged to debate Tim Alleman on penal substitution. More info is on The Principled Legal Standard youtube channel. Spread the word!

 

[S. Tellez]

Part 1

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for sins of mankind, and the Bible makes it seemingly so. But is the atonement doctrine really compatible with scripture? In this thread, the issue of sacrifice examined in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. I will be quoting from The Scriptures by the Institute for Scripture Research (ISR), which is a Messianic translation of the Bible.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

“The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:17

But the Israelites did not want to repent, rather they wanted to sacrifice animals as a license to keep sinning, and that's why Moses commanded the Israelites to make routine sacrifices. This is why no one can be saved under the Law, because the law of sacrifice was for sinners. Those who practice routine sacrifices remain in a state of sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

“And Yahweh said to Mosheh, “I have seen this people, and see, it is a stiff-necked people!” Exodus 32:9

“When your fathers tried Me, Have proved Me, though they saw My work. “For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, ‘They are a people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.” Psalm 95:9-10

“Thus said Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your slaughterings and eat meat. “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, about matters of burnt offerings or slaughterings. “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’ “But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in the counsels, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.” Jeremiah 7:21-24

David and the prophets testified that God hates sacrifice.

“Then Shemu’el said, “Does Yahweh delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of Yahweh? Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.” 1 Samuel 15:22

“For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.” Hosea 6:6

“Since Ephraim has made many altars for sin, they have been altars for sinning to him. “I have written for him numerous matters of My Torah – they were regarded as strange. “As for My offerings: they slaughter flesh and they eat. Yahweh shall not accept them. Now does He remember their crookedness and punish their sins. Let them return to Egypt!” Hosea 8:11-13

“I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. “Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings. “Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I do not hear the sound of your stringed instruments. “And let right-ruling roll on like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.” Amos 5:21-24

“With what shall I come before Yahweh, bow myself before the high Elohim? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Is Yahweh pleased with thousands of rams or ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my being? He has declared to you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahweh require of you but to do right, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your Elohim?” Micah 6:6-8

“Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Gomorrah! “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares Yahweh. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood. “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Stop doing evil! “Learn to do good! Seek right-ruling, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. “Come now, and let us reason together,” says Yahweh. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. “If you submit and obey, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword,” for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.” Isaiah 1:10-20

“But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations. “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.” Isaiah 66:3-4

“Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire; You have opened my ears; Burnt offering and sin offering You did not ask for. Then I said, “See, I have come; In the scroll of the Book it is prescribed for me. I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart” Psalm 40:6-8

“I do not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your pens. “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. “I know all the birds of the mountains, And all moving in My field are Mine. “If I were hungry, I would not speak to you; For the world is Mine, and all that fills it. “Do I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? “Offer thanksgiving to Elohim, And pay your vows to the Most High. “And call upon Me in the day of distress – Let Me rescue you, and you esteem Me.” Psalm 50:9-15

“For You do not desire slaughtering, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The slaughterings of Elohim are a broken spirit, A heart broken and crushed, O Elohim, These You do not despise.” Psalm 51:16-17

Even Christ himself was opposed to sacrifice. He quoted Hosea:

“But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13

“And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless.” Matthew 12:7

The sacrifice was not a "penalty or punishment for sins" It was pointing to future events and has to do with being the solution to sin, since sin in the flesh is the problem. The sacrifice was examined and found to be spotless just as Christ was tested and found to be without spot. This was the emphasis of the sacrifice. The cross was for the "demonstration of His righteousness" and He was found to be just which qualified Him to be the justifier of all who believe in Him, and "in the patience of God He passed over the sins previously committed". The sacrifice was to be done for sins of ignorance only. It was those committing elective crimes who were punished with a specific punishment for that particular sin. "Eye for eye tooth for tooth life for life..." A person offering a sacrifice didn't commit a sin worthy of death as you stated. How could the sacrifice be "taking the place" of the one who committed a sin worthy of death when that person was actually put to death in most cases? David said that if there was an offering for his murder of Uriah he would have offered it. But there wasnt any. Sins of ignorance or inability were never punished but instead were overlooked or passed over. By the way, God did not put to death the sacrifices, sinful ignorant men did. And God was pleased with the impeccable life. The ignorant high priest put the sacrifice to death on behalf of the ignorant people. Peter said "you put to death the author of life... but you did this in ignorance as did your rulers." You said "...that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal." In this you are saying that the ignorant and the unable (a baby, mentally disabled or those enslaved to the corrupt nature etc) should be put to death when in reality there are specific willful and elective crimes that call for death and the rest do not. Do you think it is possible for man to be righteous apart from Christ or without the aid of God? Then why would God expect him to be?

 

[MountainPine]

19 Then You would delight in slaughterings of righteousness, In burnt offering and complete burnt offering; Then young bulls would be offered on Your altar."

פָרִ֖ים (parim) doesn't just translate as "bulls", but also "fruit", as it's used in Hosea 14:12. Even in the LXX, where "calves" is transliterated from μόσχος can also be translated as "a tender, juicy, shoot" or a "sprout". Translating it as fruit or sprout would be consistent with verse 17, otherwise it would be a contradiction.

"And any man of the house of Yisra’el,or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who eats any blood, I shall set My face against that being who eats blood, and shall cut him off from among his people.11 ‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your lives, for it is the blood that makes atonement for the life.’"

Again, the point of sacrifice was to be a once and for all means to stop sinning. The Israelites, however, were disobedient so they were bound by the law of sacrifice. This was done to preserve them because of God's promise to Abraham, otherwise God would have killed them all for their sins.

As for everything else you said, you've intentionally ignored the OP. It amazes me that you quote the Hebrews passages and try to explain to me what it means when you're the one who can't see the message:

"For the Torah, having a shadow of the good matters to come, and not the image itself of the matters, was never able to make perfect those who draw near with the same slaughter offerings which they offer continually year by year. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered? Because those who served, once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those offerings is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, coming into the world, He says, “Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. “In burnt offerings and offerings for sinYou did not delight. “Then I said, ‘See, I come – in the roll of the book it has been written concerning Me – to do Your desire, O Elohim.’ ”Saying above, “Slaughter and meal offering, and burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor delighted in,” which are offered according to the Torah, then He said, “See, I come to do Your desire, O Elohim.” He takes away the first to establish the second. By that desire we have been set apart through the offering of the body of

Messiah once for all."

"Therefore not even the first covenant was instituted without blood.19 For when, according to Torah, every command had been spoken by Mosheh to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, and scarlet wool,and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which Elohim commanded you.”21 And in the same way he sprinkled with blood both the Tent and all the vessels of the service.22 And, according to the Torah, [according to 1 Timothy 1:9, the Torah was written for sinners. Only sinners are bound to the Levitical laws of sacrifice. But this wasn't the case after Israel went apostate because they abused by sacrificial system by making continual sacrifices as a license to keep sinning, in which the prophets testified that God wanted repentance and obedience. God does not demand routine sacrifices to those who are obedient] almost all is cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.23 It was necessary, then, that the copies of the heavenly ones should be cleansed with these, but the heavenly ones them-selves with better slaughter offerings than these.24 For Messiah has not entered into a Set-apart Place made by hand – figures of the true – but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf,25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Set-apart Place year by year with blood not his own.26 For if so, He would have had to suffer often, since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself.27 And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, 28 so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto deliverance."

It is ironic that you bolded verse 26 when you don't understand it. The idea is to stop sinning so you don't need to make sacrifices year by year. Christ came to abolish sin within us (1 John 3:5) by his example—the application of the Word (John 5:24, Luke 11:28), which is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6)—so that anyone willing to believe Him repents from their sin once for all (John 8:11) and lives righteously in obedience to God. (Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 3:7-10). Every time you do sin you are continually nailing your beloved Savior to the cross in your heart, which makes you a murderer, which is a sin in of itself.

I'm not even going to bother to address the other things you said, especially your quoting of Isaiah 53, which I vastly covered in the third post. It tells me you didn't read everything I wrote. Make all the excuses you want to. The truth is you don't want to stop sinning, and you're using the Bible to justify yourself just like the Pharisees justified themselves by works of the Law (i.e. continual sacrifice, like what you do in your heart). Never mind Jesus' command to "be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect."