Did Jesus Christ die for our sins?

[A New Dawn]

The wages of sin is death. If Christ paid that why do Christians die?

Everyone dies a physical death as a result of the fall. The death that we will not die is spiritual death. Our bodies are corrupt bodies, but when we die and resurrect with Christ, there will be no corruption.

 

[Butch5]

Everyone dies a physical death as a result of the fall. The death that we will not die is spiritual death. Our bodies are corrupt bodies, but when we die and resurrect with Christ, there will be no corruption.

In the Scriptures we find that Jesus gave his flesh for sins. There's nothing there about a spiritual death. Where do you find anything in the Scriptures about a spiritual death. What is spiritual death?

 

[redleghunter]

The wages of sin is death. If Christ paid that why do Christians die?

Is this a trick question?

It’s called the Resurrection and eternal life.

 

[A New Dawn]

In the Scriptures we find that Jesus gave his flesh for sins. There's nothing there about a spiritual death. Where do you find anything in the Scriptures about a spiritual death. What is spiritual death?

Spiritual death would be the opposite of eternal life. Those who have been saved will put of the corrupt physical bodies and ascend to heaven, those who don't will suffer in hell.

In the Bible, the word "corruption" is used to indicate the decay that happens to mortal bodies after they die.

Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.​

Peter talked about the "tabernacle" that he will have to put off as Christ showed us.

2Pet 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.​

 

[A New Dawn]

In the Scriptures we find that Jesus gave his flesh for sins. There's nothing there about a spiritual death. Where do you find anything in the Scriptures about a spiritual death. What is spiritual death?

Jesus had to die to secure our salvation. He bore our sins as wounds in His flesh. He did not sin, but he became sin so that God's wrath was appeased. Our salvation is spiritual. It is not physical. I am not sure what you are asking, as the scriptures repeatedly indicate that we are but sojourners here in this life, that our home is in heaven. But here is a page that might help.

 

[Butch5]

Is this a trick question?

It’s called the Resurrection and eternal life.

No, it's not a trick question. You asked if Jesus paid for sins. I asked the question. If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus paid it, why do Christians die?

 

[redleghunter]

No, it's not a trick question. You asked if Jesus paid for sins. I asked the question. If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus paid it, why do Christians die?

Christians are raised from the dead and pass into eternal life. They do not suffer the second death.

 

[Butch5]

Spiritual death would be the opposite of eternal life. Those who have been saved will put of the corrupt physical bodies and ascend to heaven, those who don't will suffer in hell.

In the Bible, the word "corruption" is used to indicate the decay that happens to mortal bodies after they die.

Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.​

Peter talked about the "tabernacle" that he will have to put off as Christ showed us.

2Pet 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.​

I'm sorry but I don't see anything here that would indicate "spiritual death" except your opinion. I've searched in the Scriptures and haven't found the term "spiritual death" anywhere. So, it's not a Biblical term. If it's not a Biblical term then it's obviously something men have devised. However, that's getting away from the topic. We find in Scripture that Jesus gave His body for sin. If He paid for the Christian's sin why does the Christian die?

 

[Butch5]

Jesus had to die to secure our salvation. He bore our sins as wounds in His flesh. He did not sin, but he became sin so that God's wrath was appeased. Our salvation is spiritual. It is not physical. I am not sure what you are asking, as the scriptures repeatedly indicate that we are but sojourners here in this life, that our home is in heaven. But here is a page that might help.

Scripture doesn't say that he bore our sins as wounds. Isaiah actually says that His soul was given for sin. It was His body. I also haven't seen anything in Scripture that talks about His death appeasing the wrath of God. That's actually not a Biblical concept, but rather a Reformation concept. Also, I'm not sure what you mean that salvation is spiritual. What is spiritual? What does that mean? The Scriptures are pretty clear that believers will be resurrection in a physical body. That's a physical salvation.

 

[Butch5]

Christians are raised from the dead and pass into eternal life. They do not suffer the second death.

Ok, I can agree with that. But what does that have to do with Jesus dying for sins. If He paid the price for sins why do Christians also pay the rice for their sins? My point is to present something to think about. There's obviously a problem in saying Jesus paid for one's sins and at the same time that one also pays for their sins. That doesn't make sense. That means that there is something wrong here. We have to come to an understanding that makes sense and doesn't create conflicts such as the one we have here.

 

[redleghunter]

Ok, I can agree with that. But what does that have to do with Jesus dying for sins. If He paid the price for sins why do Christians also pay the rice for their sins? My point is to present something to think about. There's obviously a problem in saying Jesus paid for one's sins and at the same time that one also pays for their sins. That doesn't make sense. That means that there is something wrong here. We have to come to an understanding that makes sense and doesn't create conflicts such as the one we have here.

Paying the price for sins would be for the second death. To ensure those who are in Him will share in the Resurrection of the dead. That is why the Perfect sacrifice had to be truly God and truly man.

Christ is the first born from the dead (Colossians 1:18)

 

[redleghunter]

Scripture doesn't say that he bore our sins as wounds. Isaiah actually says that His soul was given for sin. It was His body. I also haven't seen anything in Scripture that talks about His death appeasing the wrath of God. That's actually not a Biblical concept, but rather a Reformation concept. Also, I'm not sure what you mean that salvation is spiritual. What is spiritual? What does that mean? The Scriptures are pretty clear that believers will be resurrection in a physical body. That's a physical salvation.

No matter what one believes for the various atonement theories, Christ did appease the wrath due us as a substitute:

Romans 5: NASB

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (NASB)

In Isaiah 53 it does say by His stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53: NASB

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORDwill prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors. (NASB)

 

[redleghunter]

Also, I'm not sure what you mean that salvation is spiritual. What is spiritual? What does that mean? The Scriptures are pretty clear that believers will be resurrection in a physical body. That's a physical salvation.

It’s the complete deal. John 3 Jesus says we must be born of the Spirit. The spiritual regeneration is the New Birth.

The Resurrection is where the regeneration is complete.

It seems you may be approaching this from a solely materialistic aspect.

 

[mark kennedy]

No, it's not a trick question. You asked if Jesus paid for sins. I asked the question. If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus paid it, why do Christians die?

Jesus was righteous and had to die, for the same reson we do, the curse of sin and death. Jesus never said we wouldn't die, but rather we would pass from death to life.

 

[A New Dawn]

Scripture doesn't say that he bore our sins as wounds. Isaiah actually says that His soul was given for sin. It was His body. I also haven't seen anything in Scripture that talks about His death appeasing the wrath of God. That's actually not a Biblical concept, but rather a Reformation concept. Also, I'm not sure what you mean that salvation is spiritual. What is spiritual? What does that mean? The Scriptures are pretty clear that believers will be resurrection in a physical body. That's a physical salvation.

The law demanded a blood atonement to pay for sins. Once a year on Yom Kippur the high priest would sacrifice a blemish-free lamb to atone for their sins of the people. But the lamb was not a permanent solution, hence why it had to be done every year. Christ was the final sacrifice. That is how He fulfilled the law. It is now a permanent sacrifice, but His blood had to be shed. That is why we have so many verses in the Bible about being cleansed by the blood of the lamb. (The blemish-free lamb sacrificed every Yom Kippur was a type for Christ, as was the Last Supper.)

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Luke 22:20 ¶ Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
​

So, yes, the wounds he bore is how he atoned for our sins. There had to be a blood sacrifice. In order to understand the New Testament you have to understand the Old Testament.

​

 

[bling]

ALL of our sins were nailed to the cross, not just our past sins. 1 John 1 is a chapter about the holiness of God and about walking in relationship with Him. Verse 9 is more of a sanctification issue. We are already justified, meaning we have already been declared legally clean, forgiveness, in that verse, is more about us recognizing what we are doing that keeps us separated from God so that we can put it out of our lives (becoming conformed to the image of the Son.)

The written agreement (old Law) was nailed to the cross, that contract was completed with Christ's crucifixion. Our sins are not hand written.

 

[bling]

Jesus was righteous and had to die, for the same reson we do, the curse of sin and death. Jesus never said we wouldn't die, but rather we would pass from death to life.

Jesus did not sin and did not need to die. Jesus died at the hands of wicked people allowed by God and Christ because we sinned and to allow us to be crucified with Him.

 

[bling]

The law demanded a blood atonement to pay for sins. Once a year on Yom Kippur the high priest would sacrifice a blemish-free lamb to atone for their sins of the people. But the lamb was not a permanent solution, hence why it had to be done every year. Christ was the final sacrifice. That is how He fulfilled the law. It is now a permanent sacrifice, but His blood had to be shed. That is why we have so many verses in the Bible about being cleansed by the blood of the lamb. (The blemish-free lamb sacrificed every Yom Kippur was a type for Christ, as was the Last Supper.)

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Luke 22:20 ¶ Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
​

So, yes, the wounds he bore is how he atoned for our sins. There had to be a blood sacrifice. In order to understand the New Testament you have to understand the Old Testament.

​

You say: “The law demanded a blood atonement to pay for sins” is not in scripture since nothing can “pay” for our sins. A bag of flour could be used as an atonement sacrifice for (minor) unintentional sins.

Yes! Blood is needed, but it is not God being blood thirsty in need of blood, but my need for Christ’s cleansing blood outside his body available to wash over me and for me to drink that blood (John 6 to have eternal life) and I do drink that blood weekly in the form of wine to flow over my heart and cleans it and make it holy. I am the blood thirsty being and not God.

If you understand the Old Testament references to atonement you will see from Lev. 5 atonement was a process that had a part which the sinner had to play correctly. Only after the atonement process was completed for unintentional sins did God forgive the sinner, but God is not being “paid” a bag of flour to forgive a sin.

Intentional sins directly against God (like picking up sticks on the Sabbath) did not have any atonement process under the OT, so these sins required banishment or death.

Yom Kippur atonement process was not for intentional sins directly against God which have no OT atonement sacrifice, but was for sins you were not sure you even committed, which could be a undeserving guilt.

 

[bling]

No matter what one believes for the various atonement theories, Christ did appease the wrath due us as a substitute:

Romans 5: NASB

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (NASB)

In Isaiah 53 it does say by His stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53: NASB

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORDwill prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors. (NASB)

The "Wrath of God" is upon all those who refuse to accept God's forgiveness and Loving discipline in the form of being crucified with Christ. God is not angry with Children He has forgiven and accepted His Loving discipline.
God is definitely pleased with what Christ did to provide man with the opportunity to be justly/fairly disciplined, which shows an unbelievable huge Love of God and Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

The "Wrath of God" is upon all those who refuse to accept God's forgiveness and Loving discipline in the form of being crucified with Christ. God is not angry with Children He has forgiven and accepted His Loving discipline.
God is definitely pleased with what Christ did to provide man with the opportunity to be justly/fairly disciplined, which shows an unbelievable huge Love of God and Christ.

Yet Christ was first and actually crucified so that we are saved from the Wrath of God through Him. (Romans 5:9)