Did God take His forgiveness back?

com7fy8

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about the atrocity that happened to the girl they say to themselves "I can never ... ever... ever ... forgive that man for what he did to her".
And so, can those unforgiving people be forgiven?

I have been told how God has proven Himself to people in such or maybe much harder things. And then they change to forgive.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Since this is a Kingdom parable could it be talking about a time prior to Christ going to the cross?
All are saved by faith in God; Old Covenant people, New Covenant, Before Covenant people. Covenants don't save and there is no difference to God before or after the cross. God is outside of time.
If there is a part the sinner must play (humbly accepting the pure charity) in the forgiveness process would it take anything away from God’s sovereignty?
The kingdom of heaven is LIKE. Don't read these parables so exactingly literal in all aspects. They were designed for simple people so common in Jesus' day that did not have access to their own Bible. While the message still holds true today, we expand on the parables with much additional text.

As to the thread question and the master changing his mind. God knows all future events, he does not need to wait and see what we do and then "change his mind"/revoke his forgiveness. God also knows what is in our heart and that is what will determine if we are saved or not. We don't have to do anything to earn forgiveness, but if we truly have faith in God in our heart, we will do many things for God. This is the meaning of the oft misunderstood James 2 text. Faith is shown true because of actions. One can not have faith without actions. This is not a "part played" that has any part of our redemption.
 
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Deadworm

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Bling, here are 4 key points that your OP overlooks.
(1) In Jesus' language (Aramaic), the word for "debt" is the word used for "sin." For example, Luke's version of the Lord's prayer reads, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors (Luke 11:4)." So your parable is about sin in general, not a particular sin. Because sin separates us from God, the image if Hell here is a debtor's prison (Matthew 18:34). Notice that the debtor is not eternally damned or executed; rather, the possibility is left open that he might eventually pay this unimaginably huge debt (10,000 talents), Jesus does not teach eternal damnation (see (2) below.)

(2) The master/servant image is again applied to postmortem punishment in Luke 12:47-48, a text where punishment in Hell is expressed in terms of "many stripes" and "few stripes," i. e. in finite symbolic imagery that implies a limit and thus ultimate release. The severity of the servant's postmortem punishment is based on the extent to whichhe is clear about his master's will. In this regard, keep in mind that both the Hebrew/Aramaic ("olam") and the Greek ("aionios") words translated "eternal" really just mean "for a long time." In Matthew 18:23-35, then, the "debt" will have to be paid through expiated suffering. Jesus never says that this servant is imprisoned forever, but only until the debt is paid. The implication is that opportunities will be provided the damed to make things right with God.

(3) The parable illustrates Jesus' principle that God has no absolute standard of judgment; rather, God judges us by the standard we apply to others. We establish the standard for our postmortem judgment.
(a) "For with the judgment you make you will yourself be judged, and the measure you dish out to others will be dished out to you (Matthew 7:2)."
(b) "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses (Matthew 6:14-15)."

(4) Christ's atoning death on the cross only secures our divine pardon through our faith. But in both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word "faith also means "faithfulness." We are saved by grace through faith, only if we live a grace-based life and that means a life that expresses gratitude for unmerited divine favor. No love = no redemptive gratitude! Thus, in Hebrew the word "atone" (cephar) also means "cover" and Peter teaches, "Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8)." Thus, the prostitute's sins are forgiven to the degree that her love for Jesus is so great (Luke 7:47-49). In the parable under discussion, the servant must demonstrate his gratitude for the king's compassion by showing compassion on the other indebted servant (Matthew 18:27)

Now for some less crucial comments on your post:
Bling:"It starts off ““The kingdom of heaven is like…” so if it is consistent with all other Kingdom Parables every noun and verb in the parable would have to have a parallel spiritual kingdom meaning (stand for something in the kingdom)?"

You are confusing the parable genre with allegory. In an allegory, each detail is symbolic, whereas parables are stories that derive their meaning from a single point of comparison
Bling: "The “king”/”master” would refer to God since Christ ends with “This is how my Father in heaven will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” Options?"
Again, you are mistaking this parable for an allegory. This is a Gentile King who orders the servant, his wife, and children to be sold into slavery (18:25). Doing so violates Jewish law (see. e g., Mishnah Sotah 3:8).
Bling: "The first debtor (man/servant) has to be a sinner, but could this be a saved Christian (servant) and/or just any unbeliever?"
No, this is not an allegory. The first servant represents everyman.
Bling: "The “debt” is huge 10,000 bags of Gold (5+ billion dollars) or 10,000 bags of silver (100 million dollars) no matter, either is way above what could be paid back by a servant....:

10,000 talents is the amount a whole Roman province might pay in taxes. Jesus is using Semitic hyperbole to contrast the first servant's unmanageable debt with the second servant's manageable debt.

Bling: "The servant asks ‘Give me time,’ he begged. ‘I’ll pay everything back.’ Is this a lie to the master or how could he not know he could not pay it back?"

This is merely an expression of terror. Both the king and the servant realize the debt is unmanageable. Only debt release (grace and forgiveness) can enable the servant to escape punishment"

Bling: "How could the Master “handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed/” Since the master had forgiven the debt the servant owed, so the servant owed the Master nothing?"

No, the forgiveness is revoked and the second penality (torture) is more severe than the first (enslavement).
Bling: "If there is a part the sinner must play (humbly accepting the pure charity) in the forgiveness process would it take anything away from God’s sovereignty."

Well, the King revokes his prior divine pardon. So this parable is another of many nails in the coffin of the heresy of eternal security.
 
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BobRyan

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Bling, here are 4 key points that your OP overlooks.
(1) In Jesus' language (Aramaic), the word for "debt" is the word used for "sin." For example, Luke's version of the Lord's prayer reads, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors (Luke 11:4)." So your parable is about sin in general, not a particular sin. Because sin separates us from God, the image if Hell here is a debtor's prison (Matthew 18:34). Notice that the debtor is not eternally damned or executed; rather, the possibility is left open that he might eventually pay this unimaginably huge debt (10,000 talents), Jesus does not teach eternal damnation (see (2) below.)

(2) The master/servant image is again applied to postmortem punishment in Luke 12:47-48, a text where punishment in Hell is expressed in terms of "many stripes" and "few stripes," i. e. in finite symbolic imagery that implies a limit and thus ultimate release. The severity of the servant's postmortem punishment is based on the extent to whichhe is clear about his master's will. In this regard, keep in mind that both the Hebrew/Aramaic ("olam") and the Greek ("aionios") words translated "eternal" really just mean "for a long time." In Matthew 18:23-35, then, the "debt" will have to be paid through expiated suffering. Jesus never says that this servant is imprisoned forever, but only until the debt is paid. The implication is that opportunities will be provided the damed to make things right with God.

(3) The parable illustrates Jesus' principle that God has no absolute standard of judgment; rather, God judges us by the standard we apply to others. We establish the standard for our postmortem judgment.
(a) "For with the judgment you make you will yourself be judged, and the measure you dish out to others will be dished out to you (Matthew 7:2)."
(b) "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses (Matthew 6:14-15)."

(4) Christ's atoning death on the cross only secures our divine pardon through our faith. But in both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word "faith also means "faithfulness." We are saved by grace through faith, only if we live a grace-based life and that means a life that expresses gratitude for unmerited divine favor. No love = no redemptive gratitude! Thus, in Hebrew the word "atone" (cephar) also means "cover" and Peter teaches, "Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8)." Thus, the prostitute's sins are forgiven to the degree that her love for Jesus is so great (Luke 7:47-49). In the parable under discussion, the servant must demonstrate his gratitude for the king's compassion by showing compassion on the other indebted servant (Matthew 18:27)

Now for some less crucial comments on your post:
Bling:"It starts off ““The kingdom of heaven is like…” so if it is consistent with all other Kingdom Parables every noun and verb in the parable would have to have a parallel spiritual kingdom meaning (stand for something in the kingdom)?"

You are confusing the parable genre with allegory. In an allegory, each detail is symbolic, whereas parables are stories that derive their meaning from a single point of comparison
Bling: "The “king”/”master” would refer to God since Christ ends with “This is how my Father in heaven will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” Options?"
Again, you are mistaking this parable for an allegory. This is a Gentile King who orders the servant, his wife, and children to be sold into slavery (18:25). Doing so violates Jewish law (see. e g., Mishnah Sotah 3:8).
Bling: "The first debtor (man/servant) has to be a sinner, but could this be a saved Christian (servant) and/or just any unbeliever?"
No, this is not an allegory. The first servant represents everyman.
Bling: "The “debt” is huge 10,000 bags of Gold (5+ billion dollars) or 10,000 bags of silver (100 million dollars) no matter, either is way above what could be paid back by a servant....:

10,000 talents is the amount a whole Roman province might pay in taxes. Jesus is using Semitic hyperbole to contrast the first servant's unmanageable debt with the second servant's manageable debt.

Bling: "The servant asks ‘Give me time,’ he begged. ‘I’ll pay everything back.’ Is this a lie to the master or how could he not know he could not pay it back?"

This is merely an expression of terror. Both the king and the servant realize the debt is unmanageable. Only debt release (grace and forgiveness) can enable the servant to escape punishment"

Bling: "How could the Master “handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed/” Since the master had forgiven the debt the servant owed, so the servant owed the Master nothing?"

No, the forgiveness is revoked and the second penality (torture) is more severe than the first (enslavement).
Bling: "If there is a part the sinner must play (humbly accepting the pure charity) in the forgiveness process would it take anything away from God’s sovereignty."

Well, the King revokes his prior divine pardon. So this parable is another of many nails in the coffin of the heresy of eternal security.

That is a keeper.

One of the most informed - Methodists I have met in my short life time.
 
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BobRyan

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short summary of Matt 18


Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED and yet UNFORGIVEN of their debt of sin

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

#8. The Chapter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots of times -- but if you do not forgive nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".
 
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BobRyan

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And so, can those unforgiving people be forgiven?

I have been told how God has proven Himself to people in such or maybe much harder things. And then they change to forgive.

Romans 11 says they are able to be forgiven once they have fallen.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".
If you believe the parable to relate to heaven, then there is only one judgement day. The parable teaches us to forgive others during our time on earth. People that ignore God's command in this age may or may not receive judgement while on earth. Scripture teaches us to not dwell on that. It does teach that their sins will not be forgiven on judgement day and they will receive their just punishment for such. Since there is only one judgement day and after that there will no longer be sin, there can not be forgiveness revoked.

Do you doubt that God knows who fakes following him and what their entire life will come to?
 
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Serving Zion

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A lot of commentaries (especially Calvinistic Commentaries) tell us what this parable does not teach, but give little support for what it does teach, so what is it teaching us?
The parable is a deeper lesson about salvation - the doctrine of suffering in service. We who receive the baptism of Christ (Luke 3:16, Luke 12:50), live by endurance to survive the day of judgement (1 Peter 4:17, 1 Corinthians 3:13).
Since this is a Kingdom parable could it be talking about a time prior to Christ going to the cross?
Yes, The Kingdom definitively began with John the Baptist's ministry (Luke 16:16).
The first debtor (man/servant) has to be a sinner, but could this be a saved Christian (servant) and/or just any unbeliever?
Any person having been convicted of their sin and having received God's forgiveness, should read this as applicable to them.
The “debt” is huge 10,000 bags of Gold (5+ billion dollars) or 10,000 bags of silver (100 million dollars) no matter, either is way above what could be paid back by a servant. Gold or silver, this is virtually an impossible amount for one person to ever owe in the first century and everyone Jesus was addressing would have realized this. Spiritually this debt would represent each of our debts created by our sinning against God and Jesus said: “The man was not able to pay”?

The servant did not just slip into this huge debt over night, but would have had to take years or a life time to get so deeply in debt, so he is not coming to the master unaware. To be trusted by the Master with such a huge amount of money; suggest the servant understood economics and the value of the money or would have learned about it over time.
Not necessarily. Gamblers get stuck in a cycle of behaviour, even from a $20 starting point, where they are unable to stop themselves. In a real-life application, look at those Christians who receive a mission to evangelise, and being tempted by pride etc, begin speaking presumptuously on God's behalf (eg, Jeremiah 23:16-22). They have become the lost one of Matthew 18:12 and were causing much mahem by running amock in God's name, until they were found and brought to realise their error.
The servant asks ‘Give me time,’ he begged. ‘I’ll pay everything back.’ Is this a lie to the master or how could he not know he could not pay it back? Was the Master so stupid as to entrust a stupid servant with this much money?

Would/could the Master have felt the servant could pay this back over time?
This master is not stupid. It is by wisdom that He reigns. The overall point of the story, is that the servant is unable to ever be disloyal again.
Could the servant have felt: “he got away with something by asking for more time”, “the master is gullible”, “he still owes master but gave him more time”, “the master must like him”?
Proverbs 15:3, Psalms 14:1.
Matt.18:28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. This sounds like: the first servant immediate went out and found a fellow servant of the Master with little time elapsing, so is he unloving to a servant of the master?
I understand it to be like Romans 14:4. What I have noticed, is that some of our brethren are notorious as Matthew 24:49 and 1 Corinthians 1:11 - these being the ones who are accruing a debt to The Lord, yet to be settled as in Matthew 18:23.

Indeed, to condemn a fellow servant is to lack a required degree of love. Why? Listen to this quote:

"When someone violates us, we make him or her evil along with the evil they did, don't we? You have to be able to separate the people from their sin."
- Dr. Henry W. Wright, A More Excellent Way, 2009.

We then who are strong ought to bear with the scruples of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, leading to edification.
Romans 15:1-2
Jesus teaches us in Luke 7:36-50 “… he that is forgiven much loves much…”, so since this first servant was forgiven of such a unbelievable huge debt he would automatically and have to have an unbelievable huge Love which would easily be seen in his actions toward another servant of the master since servants of good masters were almost treated as family members. How could this servant be unloving toward a servant of the Master if he Loved the master?
Keep in mind that the said fellow servant is presently unfaithful to the master because he sins against his brother (Matthew 7:12, James 2:10, 1 John 3:9 vs John 8:44, Ezekiel 16:15). So, there is some conflict of loyalty and a temptation to resentment for the disloyalty (Luke 15:13). Of course this is a judgement that belongs to the master and not the slave (Romans 2:1). Please consider Ecclesiastes 1:18, Isaiah 58:5-6 & Matthew 6:16-18.
Did the Master expect the servant to show great Love?
Matthew 18:34 and James 1:13 show that indeed, God had a just reason to expect a love and mercy that was lacking.
How could the Master “handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.” Since the master had forgiven the debt the servant owed, so the servant owed the Master nothing?
I can only imagine that it would be like a new debt. Luke 12:48b comes to mind: "and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
If the servant has to payback this unbelievable huge debt before the torture can stop how long will that take and does that not sound like hell?
Yes, that is right. See what Revelation 2:11 says about this: "The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death". Also consider Matthew 24:51.
Since the servant shows no great love after the Master forgave him and since the servant still owes the master the huge debt forgiveness must not have taken place even though the master did His part perfectly was there a part the servant had to play to complete the forgiveness transaction?
Matthew 18:35 states that we must forgive from the heart. This means we must nail to the cross the flesh with all it's passions and become a living sacrifice to do the will of God.

Freely you have received, freely give. If you do not forgive others, then Your Heavenly Father will not forgive you. He who wants to keep his life will lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake shall find it.
If there is a part the sinner must play (humbly accepting the pure charity) in the forgiveness process would it take anything away from God’s sovereignty?
God is sovereign because He is holy. He is forever without blame, and forever absolutely wise.

St. James states that He cannot be tempted by evil. So, we can be forever grateful to Him for that. The way we can demonstrate our gratefulness, is to likewise reflect His qualities .. that will ultimately reduce suffering and restore the world to it's proper condition where it entirely glorifies Him (Isaiah 11:6-9).

 
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Deadworm

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Your comments are directed at Bob, but I too will respond.

Anticipate: "If you believe the parable to relate to heaven, then there is only one judgement day"

You forget that the unrighteous are already judged in Hades right after death (Luke 16:22-31) and can respond to postmortem preaching (1 Peter 3:19; 4:6) and thus be saved from Hell.

Anticipate: "Since there is only one judgement day and after that there will no longer be sin, there can not be forgiveness revoked."

Anticipate: "Do you doubt that God knows who fakes following him and what their entire life will come to?"

Your comment is refuted by 3 facts:
(1) We all have a sinful nature. we can all begin our faith walk by serving God sincerely and well and then stumble and make poor choices. God praises Solomon's wisdom, yet he winds up an evil idolater.

(2) Paul recognizes the possibility of losing his salvation: "I punish my body and enslave it, lest having preached to others, I myself may be a reprobate (adokimos--1 Corinthians 9:27)." No, "reprobate: here does not mean "discqualified from ministry. In the context (9:23-24) Paul is now discussing how he can win "the prize" (salvation) and how he can "share in its (the Gospel's) blessings" (isalvation). Then in 9:27 the Greek word "adokimos" refers to loss of salvation as in Romans 1:28.

(3) You forget that divine foreknowledge logically precedes predestination, not vice versa (Romans 8:28). God foreknows how we will abuse our free will and then fits that fact into His divine plan. God does not overrule our free will.
 
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bling

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short summary of Matt 18


Lets deal with "the obvious" points made IN The text of Matt 18.

#1. The forgiveness shown OTHERS was to be based on the real forgiveness ALREADY received from God.

#2. The REAL forgiveness received from God was regarding the unpayable DEBT that each one owes to God. The debt of sin.

#3. NO one can be SAVED and yet UNFORGIVEN of their debt of sin

#4. THIS IS an illustration of "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN" according to Christ.

#5. This is the SAME instruction we see in Matt 6 in the Lord's prayer "FORGIVE us our debts AS WE forgive others".

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

#7. Christ says to his own followers "So shall My Heavenly Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not forgive...". Christ makes the same point that He made in Matt 6 "For IF YOU do not FORGIVE... then neither will..."

#8. The Chapter of Matt 18 DOES NOT end in vs 22 just saying “YES you should forgive lots of times -- but if you do not forgive nothing bad will happen to you” -- the way many “wish” the chapter had ended.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

I just have time to deal with the comment and conclusion you make:

#6. The DEBT OWED to the King of kings is RETURNED back to the one who OWED the debt as "payment due" and they are put into torment paying that huge debt of sin! This pay-your-own-debt-of-sin idea is never called "The saved relationship with God" in all of scripture.

Matt 18 is a clear, irrefutable and obvious case of "forgiveness REVOKED".

Questions:

Godly type Love has always been around but did Christ give us a better understanding of this Love with stories like “the Good Samaritan” and with his own life?

Would you define Godly type Love as being unconditional or is it conditional?

Is God’s forgiveness an example of Godly type Love?

Did Jesus lie to us when He taught “… he that is forgiven much Loves much…” (Luke 7) since this servant was forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt by the Master and yet showed little for the same Master’s servant?

If you say: “ Forgiveness can be revoked by God because of our poor behavior after we have been forgiven” why would we not be doing good to avoid having forgiveness revoked, instead of doing good because of the free undeserving, unconditional, charitable gift of forgiven we have been forgiven?

How do you know you have done enough to keep God from revoking His forgiveness?

Is Jesus redefining “forgiveness” as something you can take back?

If Jesus is redefining forgiveness as : “something you can take back” then there should be no problem with forgiving our brother 77 or 490 times, because we can always take our forgiveness back if our brother or sister does not behave correctly, so why is that not a good application?

I do see Jesus redefining (really giving a true definition) forgiveness, but not making it “conditional” since it is part of God’s unconditional Love and Jesus not miss leading us, since “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” is always true each time every time. The part of forgiveness being defined better for us is the part we play of humbly accepting this gift of forgiveness as pure charity and not thinking we still own the debt (just have more time).

Forgiveness, Like God’s Love/mercy/grace/charity is available to everyone and God is doing everything He can to help us humbly accept these free gifts, but they must be accepted as pure charitable gifts or the transaction is not completed. What we see with the forgiving of the first servant is an incomplete transaction so Love (forgiveness) did not take place since true charitable forgiveness was unaccepted.
 
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Deadworm

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Bling: "If you say: “ Forgiveness can be revoked by God because of our poor behavior after we have been forgiven” why would we not be doing good to avoid having forgiveness revoked...?"

In that case, you would be forgetting that Christianity is first and foremost a way of being rather than a system of beliefs. We can't be saved, unless we have faith, but the word "faith" in both Hebrew and Greek also means "faithfulness." Our faithfulness must be demonstrated by our gratitude for His grace.
God's grace is unmerited favor, but we cannot receive it, unless we demonstrate that we are grateful for it as a blessing we cannot earn. That demonstration is a grace-based life, which is a necessary condition for salvation.

Bling: "Would you define Godly type Love as being unconditional or is it conditional?'

God's love is unconditional, but God is also holy and just and can tolerate neither sin nor the sham of taking His grace for granted. God loves us enough to respect our right to choose the path of separation from Him.

Bling: "Did Jesus lie to us when He taught “… he that is forgiven much Loves much…” (Luke 7) since this servant was forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt by the Master and yet showed little for the same Master’s servant?"

As He often does, Jesus offers a general principle for which there are exceptions. Why the exceptions? Because we are always free to do the unthinkable and take divine forgiveness for granted.

Bling: "Is Jesus redefining “forgiveness” as something you can take back?"

Jesus teaches, "If your brother sins, rebuke Him. Then if he repents, forgive him (Luke 17:3)." No repentance, no forgiveness! Don't forget that sin must be confessed to be forgiven (1 John 1:9). No confession? No spiritual healing: "Confess your sins to one another...so that you may be healed (James 5:16)." We don't get to confess our sins when we become a Christian and then allow that confession to apply to all our future sins! Our status as forgiven saints can be revoked.
 
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BobRyan

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What kind of people does it say will be beaten-cut asunder?
those yet living at the time of the end of this world

not people that are dead coming up resurrected out of hell

Christ said there are only two classes -

Just as he said in Matthew 25.

And in Matthew 7 "he who hears this word of mine"

only two groups.
 
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BobRyan

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Would you define Godly type Love as being unconditional or is it conditional? .

Ezek 18 - God loves all -- even those that go to hell.

John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that He gave" -- not just "so loved the FEW of Matthew 7"

Your question presupposes that God does not love those who go to the 2nd death - lake of fire -- and that is the only reason they are there ... when in fact God "Sent his Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14 He who is "NOT WILLING that ANY should perish" 2 Peter 3.
 
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bling

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Ezek 18 - God loves all -- even those that go to hell.

John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD that He gave" -- not just "so loved the FEW of Matthew 7"

Your question presupposes that God does not love those who go to the 2nd death - lake of fire -- and that is the only reason they are there ... when in fact God "Sent his Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14 He who is "NOT WILLING that ANY should perish" 2 Peter 3.

My question is a question and does not “presuppose anything?

I am in agreement with you that God Loves everyone even those that go to hell. The father in the prodigal son story loves the son if he returns or does not return.

I also see every mature adult having an earthly objective that must be fulfilled while here on earth and not just some “purpose” like a tree has a purpose.
 
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bling

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Bling: "If you say: “ Forgiveness can be revoked by God because of our poor behavior after we have been forgiven” why would we not be doing good to avoid having forgiveness revoked...?"

In that case, you would be forgetting that Christianity is first and foremost a way of being rather than a system of beliefs. We can't be saved, unless we have faith, but the word "faith" in both Hebrew and Greek also means "faithfulness." Our faithfulness must be demonstrated by our gratitude for His grace.
God's grace is unmerited favor, but we cannot receive it, unless we demonstrate that we are grateful for it as a blessing we cannot earn. That demonstration is a grace-based life, which is a necessary condition for salvation.

I agree with some of this but would carry it further: You say: “…we cannot receive it, unless we demonstrate that we are grateful for it…” since I would say: “…we did not receive it unless we humbly accepted it as pure charity…”. In other words: “we will automatically be grateful for it (Love much) if we humbly accept the gift (…he that is forgiven much Loves much…)”. Forgiveness is not one sided but requires both the giving and receiving.

We are to unconditionally forgive others like God unconditionally forgave us, but that does not mean those we forgive are forgiven since they have to receive that forgiveness as a charitable gift.

Bling: "Would you define Godly type Love as being unconditional or is it conditional?'

God's love is unconditional, but God is also holy and just and can tolerate neither sin nor the sham of taking His grace for granted. God loves us enough to respect our right to choose the path of separation from Him.

God is not the one with the “problem” of holiness, justice, toleration or sham (Deity went to the cross). The problem is with man having to humble himself to the point of being willing to accept pure charity which is our right to accept or reject.

Bling: "Did Jesus lie to us when He taught “… he that is forgiven much Loves much…” (Luke 7) since this servant was forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt by the Master and yet showed little for the same Master’s servant?"

As He often does, Jesus offers a general principle for which there are exceptions. Why the exceptions? Because we are always free to do the unthinkable and take divine forgiveness for granted.

Sorry, but I do not agree “there are no ‘exceptions’ to this truism”. I have seen and read of it 100% of the time in others and in my own life and it is perfectly logical. We cannot keep from having an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) when we humbly realize and accept the gift of forgiveness for an unbelievable huge debt (the gift changes ownership to us). That does not mean after receiving the Love within us (something we now own) we cannot get caught up in worldly selfish love and loss interest in Godly type Love (our birthright) and eventually we give the gift away (Like Esau did with his birthright).

Bling: "Is Jesus redefining “forgiveness” as something you can take back?"

Jesus teaches, "If your brother sins, rebuke Him. Then if he repents, forgive him (Luke 17:3)." No repentance, no forgiveness! Don't forget that sin must be confessed to be forgiven (1 John 1:9). No confession? No spiritual healing: "Confess your sins to one another...so that you may be healed (James 5:16)." We don't get to confess our sins when we become a Christian and then allow that confession to apply to all our future sins! Our status as forgiven saints can be revoked.

That is not what I asked and you did not address the question. I am not talking about future transgressions against you by others, but past transgressions that have been admitted to and you forgave (can you take your forgiveness back for past transgressions by the definition of forgiveness you feel Jesus is giving?)
 
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Open Heart

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  • The servant asks ‘Give me time,’ he begged. ‘I’ll pay everything back.’ Is this a lie to the master or how could he not know he could not pay it back? Was the Master so stupid as to entrust a stupid servant with this much money?
  • Would/could the Master have felt the servant could pay this back over time?
  • Jesus said: “He forgave him what he owed”, but was that what the servant was asking for?
The servant is being desperate. He very likely believes that somehow miraculously he can pay it back, but the Master knows that in all probability he will not. This is why the Master simply forgives him the debt.
 
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Open Heart

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Did the Master expect the servant to show great Love?
Yes.

The story is a metaphor for a person becoming a Christian, and having their sins forgiven. But they sin again, a mortal sin, and it breaks off their relationship with the Master, creating a new debt. In the story, its the same old debt, but that's just because no analogy is perfect. God expects us, as Christians, to refrain from mortal sins. If we do sin mortally, our link with God is severed, and we die spiritually (this is why it is called a sin unto death). We must once more repent, confess, and profess to receive salvation.
 
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