Did God take His forgiveness back?

[bling]

I am teaching an adult class on the parable Matt. 18: 21-35 “The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant” and would like your comments on this parable.

A lot of commentaries (especially Calvinistic Commentaries) tell us what this parable does not teach, but give little support for what it does teach, so what is it teaching us?

What can we hopefully agree with from the information given and please give other options if you have them and scripture to back it up:

1. It starts off ““The kingdom of heaven is like…” so if it is consistent with all other Kingdom Parables every noun and verb in the parable would have to have a parallel spiritual kingdom meaning (stand for something in the kingdom)?
   
   
2. Since this is a Kingdom parable could it be talking about a time prior to Christ going to the cross?
   
   
3. The “king”/”master” would refer to God since Christ ends with “This is how my Father in heaven will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” Options?
   
   
4. The first debtor (man/servant) has to be a sinner, but could this be a saved Christian (servant) and/or just any unbeliever?
   
   
5. The “debt” is huge 10,000 bags of Gold (5+ billion dollars) or 10,000 bags of silver (100 million dollars) no matter, either is way above what could be paid back by a servant. Gold or silver, this is virtually an impossible amount for one person to ever owe in the first century and everyone Jesus was addressing would have realized this. Spiritually this debt would represent each of our debts created by our sinning against God and Jesus said: “The man was not able to pay”?
   
   
6. The servant did not just slip into this huge debt over night, but would have had to take years or a life time to get so deeply in debt, so he is not coming to the master unaware. To be trusted by the Master with such a huge amount of money; suggest the servant understood economics and the value of the money or would have learned about it over time.
   
   
7. The servant asks ‘Give me time,’ he begged. ‘I’ll pay everything back.’ Is this a lie to the master or how could he not know he could not pay it back? Was the Master so stupid as to entrust a stupid servant with this much money?
   
   
8. Would/could the Master have felt the servant could pay this back over time?
   
   
9. Jesus said: “He forgave him what he owed”, but was that what the servant was asking for?
   
   
10. Could the servant have felt: “he got away with something by asking for more time”, “the master is gullible”, “he still owes master but gave him more time”, “the master must like him”?
    
    
11. Matt.18:28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. This sounds like: the first servant immediate went out and found a fellow servant of the Master with little time elapsing, so is he unloving to a servant of the master?
    
    
12. Jesus teaches us in Luke 7:36-50 “… he that is forgiven much loves much…”, so since this first servant was forgiven of such a unbelievable huge debt he would automatically and have to have an unbelievable huge Love which would easily be seen in his actions toward another servant of the master since servants of good masters were almost treated as family members. How could this servant be unloving toward a servant of the Master if he Loved the master?
    
    
13. Did the Master expect the servant to show great Love?
    
    
14. How could the Master “handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.” Since the master had forgiven the debt the servant owed, so the servant owed the Master nothing?
    
    
15. If the servant has to payback this unbelievable huge debt before the torture can stop how long will that take and does that not sound like hell?
    
    
16. Since the servant shows no great love after the Master forgave him and since the servant still owes the master the huge debt forgiveness must not have taken place even though the master did His part perfectly was there a part the servant had to play to complete the forgiveness transaction?
    
    
17. If there is a part the sinner must play (humbly accepting the pure charity) in the forgiveness process would it take anything away from God’s sovereignty?
    

 

[david.d]

I believe that parable is teaching about forgiveness in this world. We accrue a seemingly unforgivable amount of sin in our lives, but God forgives it all. Knowing what God has done for us, we should gladly forgive others for their trespasses. If we do not forgive our brothers and sisters' trespasses against us, we will pay even more for our own sins while in this world. It didn't say we are unforgiven, it just said we will have to pay. The sovereignty of grace still stands.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[bling]

What had the servant done with the money? Sell some items and give that money back.
There is a verse that seems to compare His wrath with His fear.... as in as far His fear goes, so does His wrath.

Psalms 90:11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, [so is] thy wrath.


Psalms 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Could you explain how that applies to the parable?

 

[bling]

I believe that parable is teaching about forgiveness in this world. We accrue a seemingly unforgivable amount of sin in our lives, but God forgives it all. Knowing what God has done for us, we should gladly forgive others for their trespasses. If we do not forgive our brothers and sisters' trespasses against us, we will pay even more for our own sins while in this world. It didn't say we are unforgiven, it just said we will have to pay. The sovereignty of grace still stands.

You say: “we will pay even more for our own sins while in this world”, but go on to say: “It didn't say we are unforgiven”, so if the sins are forgiven there is zero payment so it would not be “even more”, but something in this world?

Are you seeing people who do not show “gratitude to God” in the form of forgiving other “paying a price in this world”? (That is not obvious to the rest of us.)

If ungrateful people do make some “payment” in this world it would be like a slap on the hand compared to what they deserve?

You are still not explaining the truism that we always see and Jesus taught: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” is always true when the person humbly accepts the free gift of charity (forgiveness) from any huge debt. Are you saying that does not always happen?

Also the Master said the debt was still owed and does not talk about a new debt being created with “He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” and how could you “pay back” for sins you did on earth while on earth?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[bling]

Matthew 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

Matthew 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

Why did he owe the money? taxes? education? What had he done with that money?
Seems that he could not just go and sell his own businesses, furniture or whatever
to pay off this very large debt.

David once conquered the king of Syria and took his crown that weighed one talent
of gold and had jewels on it. It weighed at least 75 pounds. David put it on his head.
If he owed someday a talent of gold, then he could give them that crown and be out of debt.
So, why didn't the guy have something to sell and help him get out of debt? What
had he done with all of that money? Obviously, he had not spent it on things for that
king. Even added his wife and kids as property for sale still would not get him out of that
debt?


Matthew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

God will deliver people to torment that don't have mercy on others.
Earlier in this chapter it refers to hell fire.
Some people don't think that God will punish others for eternity by torment.
The Bible shows that as we so strongly are to fear Him...that is according to
His wrath/anger. ......fear.................///...............God's anger

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

OK we are for the most part in agreement, but also look at what was so upsetting to the Master: the Master (our Father) can personally handle a lot of ingratitude but when you start hurting His other children, He gets real upset. I tend to be the same way with my children. I do not expect much from them, but do not hurt your brother or sister.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Kenny'sID]

They say so much of what God expects of us is wrapped up in the golden rule, and this is another good example of that.

I also don't believe in the grace thing the way some perceive it....we treat people badly, or basically don't at least make an honest effort to do right, we prove we don't have faith and we don't believe and go to hell right along with the rest of the unbelievers. It doesn't just affect us here, but forever.

The OP was pretty in depth, in asking for details, but here are some short, first thoughts on those, FWIW.

1. Yes
2. Likely for all times. Some use the "well that was before Christ died" to support beliefs that aren't real, but I won't get into that now.
3.Most likely, but seems it could be anyone owed.
4. "Servant" would seem to indicate a Christian, but we all work for a living and are under a master so, could be believer or unbeliever..our fellow man.
5. I'd have to agree
6. I think most of us understand what we are doing
7. That could be no more than saying this is what people do in cases like this, in order to make the parable more understandable to us, since we may have seen that very thing come off before.
8. No more than we could ever be sinless.
9.I assumed so, doesn't really matter unless I'm missing something.
10The servant wasn't given more time, he was forgiven completely of the debt. We should all feel that we made out pretty well by the grace of God, but never get cocky as in we got away with something. Someone paid the price. Did he think that of his master? we don't know.
11. Unloving period, in spite of how he was treated. He should have done unto other as he would have and did have done unto him.
12. Seems the question is, did he really love his master. One could depend on all grace and no "do" as in loving others here, and show they don't really love their master at all. I hope that fits there, and I'm not just trying to work it in.
13. I think that would be assumed, if the master were indeed God.
14. He was forgiven, but committed a new sin of unforgiveness....did not do unto others.....
15. Sounds a lot like hell. Fortunately we have time to make mistakes, repent and try again...at least while we are here.
16. I'll skip this one for the moment...maybe comment after someone else does. Good question.
17. Same with this one, maybe I just need a break first..

 

[BobRyan]

I am teaching an adult class on the parable Matt. 18: 21-35 “The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant” and would like your comments on this parable.

A lot of commentaries (especially Calvinistic Commentaries) tell us what this parable does not teach, but give little support for what it does teach, so what is it teaching us?

What can we hopefully agree with from the information given and please give other options if you have them and scripture to back it up:

1. It starts off ““The kingdom of heaven is like…” so if it is consistent with all other Kingdom Parables every noun and verb in the parable would have to have a parallel spiritual kingdom meaning (stand for something in the kingdom)?
   
   
2. Since this is a Kingdom parable could it be talking about a time prior to Christ going to the cross?
   
   
3. The “king”/”master” would refer to God since Christ ends with “This is how my Father in heaven will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” Options?
   
   
4. The first debtor (man/servant) has to be a sinner, but could this be a saved Christian (servant) and/or just any unbeliever?
   
   
5. The “debt” is huge 10,000 bags of Gold (5+ billion dollars) or 10,000 bags of silver (100 million dollars) no matter, either is way above what could be paid back by a servant. Gold or silver, this is virtually an impossible amount for one person to ever owe in the first century and everyone Jesus was addressing would have realized this. Spiritually this debt would represent each of our debts created by our sinning against God and Jesus said: “The man was not able to pay”?
   
   
6. The servant did not just slip into this huge debt over night, but would have had to take years or a life time to get so deeply in debt, so he is not coming to the master unaware. To be trusted by the Master with such a huge amount of money; suggest the servant understood economics and the value of the money or would have learned about it over time.
   
   
7. The servant asks ‘Give me time,’ he begged. ‘I’ll pay everything back.’ Is this a lie to the master or how could he not know he could not pay it back? Was the Master so stupid as to entrust a stupid servant with this much money?
   
   
8. Would/could the Master have felt the servant could pay this back over time?
   
   
9. Jesus said: “He forgave him what he owed”, but was that what the servant was asking for?
   
   
10. Could the servant have felt: “he got away with something by asking for more time”, “the master is gullible”, “he still owes master but gave him more time”, “the master must like him”?
    
    
11. Matt.18:28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. This sounds like: the first servant immediate went out and found a fellow servant of the Master with little time elapsing, so is he unloving to a servant of the master?
    
    
12. Jesus teaches us in Luke 7:36-50 “… he that is forgiven much loves much…”, so since this first servant was forgiven of such a unbelievable huge debt he would automatically and have to have an unbelievable huge Love which would easily be seen in his actions toward another servant of the master since servants of good masters were almost treated as family members. How could this servant be unloving toward a servant of the Master if he Loved the master?
    
    
13. Did the Master expect the servant to show great Love?
    
    
14. How could the Master “handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.” Since the master had forgiven the debt the servant owed, so the servant owed the Master nothing?
    
    
15. If the servant has to payback this unbelievable huge debt before the torture can stop how long will that take and does that not sound like hell?
    
    
16. Since the servant shows no great love after the Master forgave him and since the servant still owes the master the huge debt forgiveness must not have taken place even though the master did His part perfectly was there a part the servant had to play to complete the forgiveness transaction?
    
    
17. If there is a part the sinner must play (humbly accepting the pure charity) in the forgiveness process would it take anything away from God’s sovereignty?

It's called "forgiveness revoked"!

"I forgave you all that debt... shouldn't you have done the same for your fellow servant JUST AS I did for you... hand him over to the torturers... he shall repay ALL that was owed" Matt 18

Just like you see in Ezekiel 18.

And at the end of Matt 18 Christ said 'SO Shall My Father do to each one of YOU - IF YOU do not forgive each one his brother.."

Now notice - a person that is saved today - may well "forgive others today" -- but what about tomorrow? And the next year? and the next decade?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Kenny'sID]

I think that type of remark is similar to in the OT when people would panic and tell the
Gentile kings things like...may you live forever.

Or, "I'm in big trouble here"...say whatever it takes, and hope for the best.

 

[BobRyan]

But do you two think the reason the king was so angry had to do with because the
one he had forgiven would not forgive a fellowservant/ brother? If that is what made the king
really care then, how come the parable leaves both of the men as in prison?
I see it more as the first guy no longer feared God and cared to keep His commandments.

Did the second servant owe the king anything? Is this a Christian being unforgiving of a fellow Christian or a Christian who refused to forgive a lost person - but should have shown mercy even as he had been shown mercy?

 

[david.d]

You say: “we will pay even more for our own sins while in this world”, but go on to say: “It didn't say we are unforgiven”, so if the sins are forgiven there is zero payment so it would not be “even more”, but something in this world?

Are you seeing people who do not show “gratitude to God” in the form of forgiving other “paying a price in this world”? (That is not obvious to the rest of us.)

If ungrateful people do make some “payment” in this world it would be like a slap on the hand compared to what they deserve?

You are still not explaining the truism that we always see and Jesus taught: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” is always true when the person humbly accepts the free gift of charity (forgiveness) from any huge debt. Are you saying that does not always happen?

Also the Master said the debt was still owed and does not talk about a new debt being created with “He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” and how could you “pay back” for sins you did on earth while on earth?

God does chastise us and we do pay for sins we commit in this world here in the world. If we smoke, we get sick. If we lie, we lose someone's trust. If we commit adultery, we lose our family. If we cheat, we lose what we won. We are slaves to labor, because Adam betrayed the labor of God. Those are just results of sin, but for committing sin there is nothing we can do to remove it, we can never pay the wages of sin. That's why in the parable it was such a large amount. The only way to remove it is forgiveness, because Jesus paid the wages of sin. The parable is Jesus' answer to Peter's question: how many times should you forgive your brother. His response is saying how can you not forgive 7 times or 70 times 7 when you are forgiven for all. In the Lord's prayer it says "forgive us our debts, as we forgive or debtors." We are forgiven now and we must forgive now, it's not something that will happen in the near or far future, it's something that happens while on earth.

 

[bling]

They say so much of what God expects of us is wrapped up in the golden rule, and this is another good example of that.

I also don't believe in the grace thing the way some perceive it....we treat people badly, or basically don't at least make an honest effort to do right, we prove we don't have faith and we don't believe and go to hell right along with the rest of the unbelievers. It doesn't just affect us here, but forever.

The OP was pretty in depth, in asking for details, but here are some short, first thoughts on those, FWIW.

1. Yes
2. Likely for all times. Some use the "well that was before Christ died" to support beliefs that aren't real, but I won't get into that now.
3.Most likely, but seems it could be anyone owed.
4. "Servant" would seem to indicate a Christian, but we all work for a living and are under a master so, could be believer or unbeliever..our fellow man.
5. I'd have to agree
6. I think most of us understand what we are doing
7. That could be no more than saying this is what people do in cases like this, in order to make the parable more understandable to us, since we may have seen that very thing come off before.
8. No more than we could ever be sinless.
9.I assumed so, doesn't really matter unless I'm missing something.
10The servant wasn't given more time, he was forgiven completely of the debt. We should all feel that we made out pretty well by the grace of God, but never get cocky as in we got away with something. Someone paid the price. Did he think that of his master? we don't know.
11. Unloving period, in spite of how he was treated. He should have done unto other as he would have and did have done unto him.
12. Seems the question is, did he really love his master. One could depend on all grace and no "do" as in loving others here, and show they don't really love their master at all. I hope that fits there, and I'm not just trying to work it in.
13. I think that would be assumed, if the master were indeed God.
14. He was forgiven, but committed a new sin of unforgiveness....did not do unto others.....
15. Sounds a lot like hell. Fortunately we have time to make mistakes, repent and try again...at least while we are here.
16. I'll skip this one for the moment...maybe comment after someone else does. Good question.
17. Same with this one, maybe I just need a break first..

OK, but 16 and 17 seems to be the obvious conclusion. The full transaction of forgiveness was not completed, because the servant did not "accept" this huge charitable gift as it was given (as pure charity). If he had he would automatically have a unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) since he was forgiven an unbelievable huge debt and there is nothing in here about the first servant becoming indebted further to the master because of his legal actions with the second servant.

 

[BobRyan]

God does chastise us and we do pay for sins we commit in this world here in the world. If we smoke, we get sick. If we lie, we lose someone's trust. If we commit adultery, we lose our family. If we cheat, we lose what we won. We are slaves to labor, because Adam betrayed the labor of God. Those are just results of sin, but for committing sin there is nothing we can do to remove it, we can never pay the wages of sin. That's why in the parable it was such a large amount. The only way to remove it is forgiveness, because Jesus paid the wages of sin.

That is an important point

 

[BobRyan]

OK, but 16 and 17 seems to be the obvious conclusion. The full transaction of forgiveness was not completed, because the servant did not "accept" this huge charitable gift as it was given (as pure charity). If he had he would automatically have a unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) since he was forgiven an unbelievable huge debt and there is nothing in here about the first servant becoming indebted further to the master because of his legal actions with the second servant.

he simply "Owes all" which in the original case - was more then the average person could pay in ten lifetimes.

 

[bling]

It's called "forgiveness revoked"!

"I forgave you all that debt... shouldn't you have done the same for your fellow servant JUST AS I did for you... hand him over to the torturers... he shall repay ALL that was owed" Matt 18

Just like you see in Ezekiel 18.

And at the end of Matt 18 Christ said 'SO Shall My Father do to each one of YOU - IF YOU do not forgive each one his brother.."

Now notice - a person that is saved today - may well "forgive others today" -- but what about tomorrow? And the next year? and the next decade?

Jesus is not “directly” talking about God, but indirectly using an earthly king/master to describe how God and the kingdom work.

There is nothing in this parable which suggest: the wicked servant’s legal actions against the second servant created a second “debt” with the master (the debt is referred to as “the debt”). The people of the first century would not have logically drawn that conclusion (people were being put in debtor prison all the time). Yes, it would create a “debt” of sin against God, but that is not being directly addressed here.

We are not talking about month’s later because from the Greek it is saying virtually “right away” the first servant goes out and finds the second servant of the master ( a servant of a wonderful master at this time was treated like family and anything done against one’s servant is like doing it against the master). The first servant is not showing any Love toward the second servant which means also he is not showing “Love” for the Master, which according to Christ is not possible if the first servant was truly forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt.

So the fact that “the debt” is still owed and the first servant shows no Love, forgiveness could not have taken place even through the master did his part perfectly. The servant had a part to play (humbly accepting the forgiveness as pure charitable gift) or the transaction of forgiveness does not take place. This would also explain how God can forgive the whole world and still have people not forgiven. It also gives the answer to the unspoken follow up question of the apostles: “How can I keep from being taken advantage of by my brother if I am going to forgive him every time”.

 

[bling]

But do you two think the reason the king was so angry had to do with because the
one he had forgiven would not forgive a fellowservant/ brother? If that is what made the king
really care then, how come the parable leaves both of the men as in prison?
I see it more as the first guy no longer feared God and cared to keep His commandments.

The second servant is in prison for legal reasons which can happen with any of us, but with a generous Master like the one being described the master will pay his debt or leave him in there to do the master's work from prison (this is what can happen to us).