Did GOD ORDAIN THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION?

[Original Happy Camper]

Your thoughts please.

 

[Dave-W]

Yes. It was the start of the "restoration of all things." As such it was very incomplete.

 

[Albion]

Maybe. It is very hard to establish for certain which events in history are the result of a divine intervention and which are simply developments in the predictable course of human events.

The Protestant Reformation certainly looks like the result of divine intervention in that it deals with correcting a church that had lost its way, but on the other hand, the stream of events itself seems sufficient for us to say that this change was almost inevitable.

Many social factors had been leading up to a major change; the whole socio-political order of the Middle Ages was ending at about the same time, to be replaced by something else. It is for that reason that historians say that with the three great epochs in Western history--Ancient, Medieval, and Modern--the line of demarcation between the last two is judged to be ca. 1500.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

The Eastern Church pretty much ignored the Reformation until the 17th century and then refuted it. So no.

 

[NIChristian]

Yes he ordained it, but to what end is unclear. Just like I would say he ordained the Counter Reformation, though again to what end is unclear.

I say unclear because I imagine it largely depends on what you believe was good and correct, and what you believe was wrong but of course personal opinions don’t necessarily match the Will of God.

 

[Jonaitis]

Your thoughts please.

Yes.

 

[HeartenedHeart]

Your thoughts please.

Who gave the dream to the elector Frederick the Wise? - The Elector Frederick the Wise

 

[Silverback]

Your thoughts please.

Personally speaking...yes, but I think there are some issues in regards to the reformation.

But I think it's time had come.

 

[Tigger45]

Ultimately yes. God is behind the scenes seeing the bigger picture and allowing certain events to take place to enable His desired outcome, knowing that we humans are going to muddle the situation.

 

[Albion]

Yes he ordained it, but to what end is unclear. Just like I would say he ordained the Counter Reformation, though again to what end is unclear.

I say unclear because I imagine it largely depends on what you believe was good and correct, and what you believe was wrong but of course personal opinions don’t necessarily match the Will of God.

Well, both of those movements were reform movements. First and most significant was the Protestant Reformation, but the Counter-Reformation was not completely an opposition movement. The decisions made by the Council of Trent agreed--at least to some extent--with the themes of the Protestant Reformation.

It took the Roman Church centuries to carry though on all the reforms, but by the Twentieth Century almost every important demand of the Protestants was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church as well.

The reason most people do not notice that is because the Papacy of course gave no credit to the early Protestant reformers nor could she do so and also maintain the claim that the RCC is a church that never has changed. (!)

 

[Hawkins]

Yes, that's why Protestants are the only ones holding both a correct OT Canon and a correct NT Canon.

OT Canon was established by God through the hands of the Jews because back then the Jews were God's authenticated earthly representative. Since the Jews failed to represent God in terms NT, the Catholics were then chosen for the NT canonization. LXX is never an authentic copy of the Bible as it's publication is uncontrolled. OT publication was strictly controlled by the Greater Sanhedrin. NT publication is strictly controlled by God's earthly Church (an quite intangible term though).

Finally when the Catholics failed to play their role as how the Jews failed, Protestants were authenticated to take up the role. They are thus the keepers of both a correct OT and NT Canon.

That said. LXX was often quoted simply because that's conveniently the right thing to do to quote from Bible when speaking in Greek, to avoid fabricating a translation by oneself.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If God ordained the reformation and the subsequent splits of Christendom which, within Protestantism alone, accounts for most of the fragments, I have to question God's wisdom in destroying the unity of the Church.

Before the reformation, there were different movements, heretics, schisms and disputes about theology. T Hey never amounted to a complete dismantling of the very structure of the Church to the point where what Church one belongs to as a Protestant doesn't really matter (since the Holy spirit can be potentially in any of those Churches). At most there were three major traditions before the reformation, all of which I would consider part of Christendom, the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox. When Protestantism destroyed the idea of Church communion at that societal and spiritual level, there became numerous state Churches, dissident protestant movements and constantly evolving forms of Christianity almost every century.

If God ordained this as a good thing he willed for the sake of the Church, instead of simply allowing it to happen due to human error/freedom, I don't know what he hoped to accomplish. I don't think the Gospel was ever lost that it needed restoring, I don't believe the Church was ever corrupted to the point that it needed a new founding and complete dismantling of the old system.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I am not sure what ordaining the Protestant movement means, but here are my thoughts:

The Bible has many verses and chapters that contradict some Catholic beliefs and practices. That is why a man named Martin Luther started a movement that he called Protestantism - to "protest Catholicsm." His ideas most likely came from God because they have biblical bases. But in that case, why was there ever a Catholic church? Both Catholic and Protestant churches are divine, right? God must ordain both or neither if there is such a thing as ordaining denominations.

 

[JCFantasy23]

I think so. The power had gotten too unified and large in its corruption and hurting people's salvation. Breaking up the power and shaking up the system started restoring a sense of balance and safety.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The Eastern Church pretty much ignored the Reformation until the 17th century and then refuted it. So no.

If I am reading between the lines correctly your statement indicates that the Eastern Church is the true church. (which most people believe that their church is the true church)

Does your church fulfill the requirements of the remnant church found in Revelation 12?

Revelation 12:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Well, both of those movements were reform movements. First and most significant was the Protestant Reformation, but the Counter-Reformation was not completely an opposition movement. The decisions made by the Council of Trent agreed--at least to some extent--with the themes of the Protestant Reformation.

It took the Roman Church centuries to carry though on all the reforms, but by the Twentieth Century almost every important demand of the Protestants was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church as well.

The reason most people do not notice that is because the Papacy of course gave no credit to the early Protestant reformers nor could she do so and also maintain the claim that the RCC is a church that never has changed. (!)

.
Rome was not willing to compromise on issues of doctrine with the reformers. Pope Paul III called the Council of Trent, which met in three sessions between 1545 and 1563. Protestants were present during the second meeting.

The Council reaffirmed most of the doctrines disputed by the reformers:

1. Transubstantiation
2. Justification by faith and works
3. The medieval mass
4. The seven sacraments
5. Celibacy
6. Purgatory
7. Indulgences
8. Papal authority to enforce the decrees of the Council, and promised obedience to the Pope from church officials.i

In spite of the separation of the reformed churches from Roman Catholicism, Scripture says that at the end of time the whole world will follow the Beast. This includes the churches of today. The Reformation will grind to a halt, and the principles which lead to separation from Rome will no longer be obstacles—not as a consequence of a change in the attitude of Rome, but as a consequence of the reformed churches compromising the truth.

The Counter Reformation and the Council of Trent

The Jesuit Order and the Council of Trent

What happened at the Council of Trent?

In 1302, Pope Boniface VIII proclaimed this:

We define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.ii

In 1894, Pope Leo XIII said this:

We have constantly sought during the whole course of Our Pontificate and striven, as far as it was possible, by teaching and action, to bind every Nation and people more closely to Us, and make manifest everywhere the salutary influence of the See of Rome…We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.iii

Making the Pope Infallible | Antichrist | Roman Catholic Church

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Your thoughts please.

Hmmm the reformation does appear to be similar to the beginning of the divided kingdom era.

However, if God ordained a mimickry of the Old Covenant timeline, does this mean the church is under the law?

(living in question, no conclusion yet)

 

[Resha Caner]

The Eastern Church pretty much ignored the Reformation until the 17th century and then refuted it. So no.

Are churches never in need of reformation?

 

[Albion]

I am not sure what ordaining the Protestant movement means, but here are my thoughts:

The Bible has many verses and chapters that contradict some Catholic beliefs and practices. That is why a man named Martin Luther started a movement that he called Protestantism - to "protest Catholicsm."

Just a "heads up" here (because it has been discussed before on these forums)…

Luther did not coin the term and it does not mean to "protest Catholicism."

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Are churches never in need of reformation?

The Holy Orthodox Church is never in need of reformation. Now everyone IN the Holy Orthodox Church does need reforming

Although historically, we were dealing with the problem of the Ottomans running the remains of the Eastern Roman Empire while the Reformation was going on. Y'all weren't a priority